Blocking up fox holes

[KautoStar1]

I am aware that no-one actually hunts on a Sunday (except the Bloodhounds) and so I may be making a bit of an assumption that it was our local hunt. but 2 reasons. 1. they meet at about this time of year at our yard. 2. they are not due in the immediate weeks, but it will be soon (sorry this wasn't clear in my original post).
I've not named the hunt because obviously I wasn't sure and of course, I don't know the legalities, hense I ask.


& to clarifty, I saw a fox running away, presumably disturbed by the terriers. From what I could see the terriers were used to identify fox holes (a scent ?) and then these chaps were filling in the holes. I do know this because I went and looked after they'd gone and you could see where holes had been packed.

I only saw one fox and there were no guns or nets. If a fox was flushed out, I think this was purely coinsidental. Perhaps I should have just gone over and asked them. Although if there were doing something illegal they'd hardly have told me anyway.


I ask because I don't know the law and also because my personal view is that its not right.
However, many interesting points raised. I'm not questioning the right to hunt, just some of the practices that (may)occur behind the scenes.

Thanks for all your replies. I'm not sure I'm any the wiser, other than it seems the law is a mess.

 

[Herne]

All sounds a bit odd. Doesn't sound like it has anything to do with hunting to me. The fox could easily have been scared out of the undergrowth rather than out from underground. If they were after foxes they'dhave bought guns or nets or something.

Any chance they could have been rabbit holes?

 

[Binkle&Flip]

No it isn’t. The question was “is it illegal to block fox holes” and the answer to that is an emphatic No. You can go out and block up as many fox holes as you wish, right in front of as many policemen as you wish, and you do not commit a crime under the hunting Act or any other Act.

For the what it’s worth, however, your answer is not strictly accurate anyway. There is nothing within the act or the code that says that you may not block a hole – merely that you must flush and shoot the animal as quickly as possible. [/QUOTE]

I am sorry Herne but the NWTF clearly say that the ACT states that it is illegal to block fox holes if you intend flushing with anything other than a net.
Either they are right or yourself but not both.

 

[Binkle&Flip]

All sounds a bit odd. Doesn't sound like it has anything to do with hunting to me. The fox could easily have been scared out of the undergrowth rather than out from underground. If they were after foxes they'dhave bought guns or nets or something.

Any chance they could have been rabbit holes?

Three men, spades, terriers and hole blocking......... Or perhaps they just intended to bait the fox/foxes and missed an exit? A possibility you missed out Herne

 

[tootsietoo]

The simplest thing might be to ask the person who has asked them/permitted them to be there what they were doing. I guess they must have spoken to your YO at some point?

 

[Fiagai]

Is it not illegal for hunt staff (or anyone for that matter) to block up foxes den holes ?...Enlighten me please ??

Absolutely illegal and should be reported. The other advice you have been given is with regard to urban foxes solely for the purpose of moving them away from your land....

There appears to be a huge anount of misinformation being posted here. The question posted was a valid one. Is the blocking up of fox's earths illegal?


Ok to set the record straight the actual facts are as follows:

FACTS:
*"fox den holes" are correctly known as "earths"
*The Hunting Act 2004 makes no mention of the stopping up of earths. In itself this activity is not therefore illegal under the meaning of the Act.
* See LINK TO 2004 ACT
*The Hunting Act 2004 bans the hunting with dogs of all wild mammals, and all hare coursing.
*Wild animals can still be shot.
*There is no legal definition or difference between urban foxes and their country cousins. With this logic we could then hunt foxes with hounds in urban areas!
*Foxes earths were traditionally blocked up to keep foxes out from their subterranean lodgings by having the earths stopped up during the period of the hunt.
*The purpose of this was not to trap the fox underground and were always opened directly after a hunt.

There would appear to be posters who set themselves up as dictators of the law. The problem with this is that vigilantism then becomes harassment.

Everyone has the right to their opinions but posting misleading and disingenuous facts does nothing for either the Anti or Pro hunting lobby.

& btw the use of cute smilies at the end of baseless facts does not make them anymore believable!

 

[JanetGeorge]

Correct me please if I am wrong, but wasnt it originally proposed that all terrier work be stopped. The exemption being forced on the government at the time by the shooting lobby/Lords.

Right and wrong! It was Labour MPs and the Government of the time who supported shooting (and didn't want to see a couple of hundred thousand shooters driven away from BASC and into the arms of the BFSS/Countryside Alliance ) who put in the exemption.

 

[burge]

No hunt I know (in the UK) operates on a Sunday

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Pennine Foxhounds met on Sundays sometimes? I have just checked my 2005-2006 Bailys and can confirm that the Wensleydale Foxhounds are listed as hunting on a Sunday. Maybe it is just different for the foot packs?

 

[Aesculus]

I am sure it was just an unintentional slip of the keyboard but since NI is part of the UK a quick trawl through the current on-line Baily's will reveal that there are a number of packs that state that they meet on a Sunday

 

[Herne]

That's fine - I said "no hunt that I know" , because I'm fully aware that I don't know the activities of every hunt.

I know a lot of Sunday hunting goes on in the Republic of Ireland, but I wasn't sure about Northern Ireland.

 

[Herne]

For the what it’s worth, however, your answer is not strictly accurate anyway. There is nothing within the act or the code that says that you may not block a hole – merely that you must flush and shoot the animal as quickly as possible.

I am sorry Herne but the NWTF clearly say that the ACT states that it is illegal to block fox holes if you intend flushing with anything other than a net.
Either they are right or yourself but not both.

I refer you to the words of mine that you quote:

There is nothing within the act or the code that says that you may not block a hole

The NTWF may be basing their advice on legal opinion or case law, and it may well be the best advice that is most sensible to follow to avoid risk of being found to be breaking the Law, but I think you will find that my words above are still technically correct.

Fiagai has posted a link to the Act, the NTWF website has an indirect link to the Code, check it out for yourself.

 

[Binkle&Flip]

I refer you to the words of mine that you quote:

There is nothing within the act or the code that says that you may not block a hole

The NTWF may be basing their advice on legal opinion or case law, and it may well be the best advice that is most sensible to follow to avoid risk of being found to be breaking the Law, but I think you will find that my words above are still technically correct.

Fiagai has posted a link to the Act, the NTWF website has an indirect link to the Code, check it out for yourself.

Agreed Herne. My opinion regarding the blocking up of holes came from the NTWF site which at first claims it is in the Act by stating "Under the Act nothing other than nets may be placed over entrance/exit holes during the flushing". Reading deeper through their site and Fiagi's link this isnt the case it is merely part of the NTWF's own code of conduct.

 

[RunToEarth]

Who are we to decide whether another species has the right to kill to survive? We do enough of it ourselves and waste so much of what we have killed.
We only dislike foxes killing our domestic animals because we loose money and they're 'ours'. Chickens are only killed em masse by foxes because of the way we shut them in.

Foxes and badgers natural predators are Lynx, bear and wolves- none of which are native to the UK anymore.
Badgers (for the time being, lets hope a badger cull is coming soon) are completely protected by fluffy bunnies, and foxes can be shot and snared- because that is so much better than hunting with hounds...
There needs to be some kind of population control among foxes (and hopefully soon badgers) because they have absolutely no natural predators in the UK.
Foxes don't kill livestock to survive, what a silly thing to say.
People get most defensive about things they don't really understand, isn't that why the hunting act came in?

 

[rosie fronfelen]

Foxes and badgers natural predators are Lynx, bear and wolves- none of which are native to the UK anymore.
Badgers (for the time being, lets hope a badger cull is coming soon) are completely protected by fluffy bunnies, and foxes can be shot and snared- because that is so much better than hunting with hounds...
There needs to be some kind of population control among foxes (and hopefully soon badgers) because they have absolutely no natural predators in the UK.
Foxes don't kill livestock to survive, what a silly thing to say.
People get most defensive about things they don't really understand, isn't that why the hunting act came in?

you are soooo right, RTE, a sensible reply thank god

 

[Alec Swan]

Foxes and badgers natural predators are Lynx, bear and wolves- none of which are native to the UK anymore.
Badgers (for the time being, lets hope a badger cull is coming soon) are completely protected by fluffy bunnies, and foxes can be shot and snared- because that is so much better than hunting with hounds...
There needs to be some kind of population control among foxes (and hopefully soon badgers) because they have absolutely no natural predators in the UK.
Foxes don't kill livestock to survive, what a silly thing to say.
People get most defensive about things they don't really understand, isn't that why the hunting act came in?

Possibly, one of the most sensible responses, of the year, to date!!

It may well be, that in part, the conflict between those who would hunt, and those who would be crudely referred to as "Bunny huggers", is in place, because the later, perhaps understandably, are irritated by demeaning comments.

Would it be possible for both sides of the argument to accept, that there is a common goal? The extremists on both sides, will never reach any degree of accord. That we will all accept, I'm sure.

It would seem that there is a person on here, who whilst opposed to hunting, sees the LACS, for what they are. I'm not sure of this, but if just one person who fails to see the justice of hunting, can accept that those who do hunt are certainly the better custodians of our country side, then the effort will have been worthwhile.

The country side has evolved, we all know that, but what few seem able to grasp, is that a rural existence, and that includes rural pursuits, has come about, to a great extent, by the existence of hunting. The precious and preserved coverts, have supplied us with a reservoir of wild life. Remove hunting, and you remove the sanctuary, or so it seems to me.

No government sponsored "Wildlife enhancement schemes", how ever well intentioned, will ever benefit our wildlife, as hunting has.

Alec.

 

[amandap]

Foxes don't kill livestock to survive, what a silly thing to say.
People get most defensive about things they don't really understand, isn't that why the hunting act came in?

Actually I didn't quite say that if you read carefully. I said they kill to survive, I didn't specify livestock. I may well be 'silly' but I'm not totally stupid.

If foxes need controlling they should just be shot imo by experienced shooters. Same with badgers, quick and effective.

Just because you don't agree with my views that doesn't make them any less valid. I hate the idea of celebrating chasing and killing an animal for sport, entertainment or even tradition. The same as I hate bullfighting. These traditions can be honoured (if they have to be) in many other ways. You can still dress up, meet and gallop around following hounds. What's so fantastic about chasing a fox and dogs mauling or shredding it before it can be killed quickly and effectively. Is this really something we should 'enjoy' in the 21st centuary when we can eat meat from supermarkets so cheaply. Killing to eat by humans is ok by me so long as it's done quickly and effectively.

So what is so bad about hunting with the ban in force? What makes it a much less enjoyable event? What exactly is it that the chase and kill supporters are trying to protect and get back? I just don't get it except having something imposed on them...
There wasn't this fuss when hitting children was banned.

I'm not trying to be provcative (but no doubt am) I genuinely don't understand.

 

[amandap]

Missed Alec's post. Off to read as it seems he has answered some of my questions.

 

[amandap]

Just to pick up on the point about foxes not having any natural predators now. I do believe that resources and food supply have much more of an impact on population density than predation but perhaps someone can say for sure. This is echoed by the huge rise in the numbers of urban foxes with rich pickings from us feeding them and eating waste, surely not because there are no predators.

 

[Xlthlx]

Absolutely illegal and should be reported. The other advice you have been given is with regard to urban foxes solely for the purpose of moving them away from your land.

1.Using more than one 'soft terrier' (those that habitually stand off and bark at the wild mammal) to bolt a fox is illegal. Terriers that are ‘hard’ (those that habitually fight) must not be used.

2.Using a terrier other than to bolt a fox for the purpose of reducing damage to game birds being kept for shooting, is now illegal. Fox example, you could not do it on a farm that just had sheep.

3.Written permission must be kept by the terrierman showing he has the permission of the landowner.

4.The aim must be to bolt a fox. Entering a terrier into a hole with its exit blocked is illegal, as is digging down and shooting the fox. Indeed anything that will prevent the fox bolting is illegal.

Also bear in mind that you have to kill the fox. It's illegal to bolt it and then just disperse it. This also applies to wild deer or any other wild mammal that is flushed out they have to be killed once flushed.

 

[Xlthlx]

Just to pick up on the point about foxes not having any natural predators now. I do believe that resources and food supply have much more of an impact on population density than predation but perhaps someone can say for sure. This is echoed by the huge rise in the numbers of urban foxes with rich pickings from us feeding them and eating waste, surely not because there are no predators.

Any wild animal's population will ultimately be limited by it's food supply. However if food supply is the only limiting factor this will have a negative effect on it. There's been a big study on the effect of the loss of apex predators (wolves lynx bears etc) in the US and the numbers of meso predators such as foxes went up by 18%. This results in a considerable loss in bio diversity. So taking out apex predators actually has a negative effect on the ecology as a whole.

The argument that fox populations are 'naturally' controlled by food/territory abundance alone is actually false. Fox populations are un naturally controlled by such factors when we have removed their predators and if we fail to control them. The consequences of such a situation is bad both for the fox population who's numbers start being controlled by far more cruel methods such as disease and starvation and also for the rest of the ecosystem because an out of balance fox population damages it.

you might want to have look at this

http://www.nctimes.com/news/science/article_3856b6c2-103d-5dc6-948d-7bc0a7fdb870.html

 

[Xlthlx]

So what is so bad about hunting with the ban in force? What makes it a much less enjoyable event?

Have a look on the internet for example facebook. Look at the anti hunt sites. The Hunting Act has been in force for 6 years and a handful of people have been done for formal fox or stag hunting. However they use this to paint people that hunt as cruel law breakers. They can get away with this because the Hunting Act is a very badly drafted law and no hunt going out into woods and fields with a pack of hounds can actually show that they are not breaking it. LACS etc want to shut hunts down and they are using the Hunting Act to try and achieve this. Have a look at the LACS blogs where they crow about the law making life financially impossible for hunts or about the 'true nature of the hunter'.

Moreover if the law remains in force there is pressure to 'stengthen' it by making it a criminal act even if a fox is accidentally chased. Doing that would effectively make it impossible to hunt within the law which is what they ultimately want.

The situation atm is very unsatisfactory to both sides.

 

[AengusOg]

It may be that the people were gassing foxes below ground. That's more widespread now than it used to be, especially since the hunting act came into force. If you suspect a fox earth has been gassed, keep yourself and any dogs away from it, and mind your own business.

Banning foxhunting with hounds didn't miraculously stop livestock owners losing stock to foxes. In the abscence of hunting, the foxes still have to be controlled. Why should anyone have to put up with fox predation without bringing the culprit to book? Gassing, snaring, poisoning, and shooting are the only ways left for some people.

 

[amandap]

Thanks for that explanation and the link Xlthlx much appreciated. I personally, as I have said, don't have a problem with effective and quick population control if and when needed.
It also seems the act itself is a nonsense in part at least. I do think people will use methods such as gassing and snaring anyway, in my vague recollection from my youth, people had individual preferences for their own methods of control and tended to stick to them. I don't for one minute imagine huntsmen and women going out and gassing foxes instead of hunting for example. Don't know what point I'm making here though.

 

[Daisychain]

Funny old world.... Can someone tell me if it is legal to trap foxes, then transport them in a horsebox to another hunt????

Oh of course its all about pest control.....

Lets face it, bottom line with hunting its never really about pest control is it, but i totally understand why people want to do it, so its much easier to become brainwashed and believe its the kindest way.

I sit on the fence and listen to both sides, and have delt and seen both sides, and my descision still remains the same, its never about being humane.

 

[Xlthlx]

its never about being humane.

So are you saying that the stag hunts operate a 24 hour 7 day a week casualty call out service for injured deer just for fun?

its never really about pest control is it

How about lambing calls when a huntsman turns up with a few scent hounds to track a fox that has been killing lambs back to its earth?

 

[Daisychain]

I see you have failed to answer my first question???? suprise suprise

 

[Binkle&Flip]

I see you have failed to answer my first question???? suprise suprise

We are being told that the hunts want to repeal the Act so they can continue culling the old and sick and keep a healthy fox population

Reading through this thread it is clear the idea that the fit and healthy foxes will escape is utter nonsense! A return to blocking is desired amongst posters leading to exhausted foxes with no hiding place being torn apart by hounds for the sport. If nothing else the Hunting Act banned a bloodsport and left in place exemptions for actual pest control.

 

[Xlthlx]

I see you have failed to answer my first question???? suprise suprise

The answer to the question

". Can someone tell me if it is legal to trap foxes, then transport them in a horsebox to another hunt????"

is no and I don't think most people would think it ever should be.

 

[Xlthlx]

We are being told that the hunts want to repeal the Act so they can continue culling the old and sick and keep a healthy fox population

Reading through this thread it is clear the idea that the fit and healthy foxes will escape is utter nonsense! A return to blocking is desired amongst posters leading to exhausted foxes with no hiding place being torn apart by hounds for the sport. If nothing else the Hunting Act banned a bloodsport and left in place exemptions for actual pest control.

I personally would like to see the Hunting Axt replaced with a wide ranging law against all cruelty to any wild mammal howsoever caused. ie with or without dogs.

I'd be interested to know if you support or oppose that.

If you want to tow the party line don't forget LACS oppose it as do a lot of the anti hunting fraternity.

 

[Fiagai]

...I know a lot of Sunday hunting goes on in the Republic of Ireland, but I wasn't sure about Northern Ireland.

As far as I am aware these are harrier packs only that hunt un Sundays in Ireland (Republic of)

...The country side has evolved, we all know that, but what few seem able to grasp, is that a rural existence, and that includes rural pursuits, has come about, to a great extent, by the existence of hunting. The precious and preserved coverts, have supplied us with a reservoir of wild life. Remove hunting, and you remove the sanctuary, or so it seems to me.

Traditionally Fox Hunting was never about earadicating all foxes but removing those who were predating livestock, sick etc. Where I live there was a healthy fox population when hunting was allowed. Now fox numbers would appear to be declining rapidly due to the promotion of shooting as the only permitted method of control. Farmers no longer feel any requirement to maintain coverts. I have found foxes that were inexpertly shot - dying in ditches - slowly. I personally prefer an animal to have a quick death and by my experience this is not by shooting.