Boggle update

[Michen]

For those of you who saw my thread re disuniting over a fence..

Had vet today. Did flexion, hard lunge, soft etc. Nothing. Totally sound.

Rode for vet and he noticed not a lameness but what he called a slightly more hurried action behind in the canter on left rein. So incredibly subtle he had to video and re watch to make sure. We then jumped and then vet watched him again after a fair bit of work and became apparent (just) it’s the right hind which makes sense with the left rein canter and is what I suspected from the disuniting. We were well and truly put through our paces! We noted it definitely became easier to see after the jumping.

So he thinks there are two likely candidates and at this point it’s just so minor we are going to have to do the blocking whilst riding/working him. Vet suspects either hock spavin or hind suspensory and thinks the latter given it worsened rather than improved with work. He feels a primary SI strain is unlikely or stifle due to the subtle nature of the issue. He also thinks this could well be an absolute nightmare to diagnose and we may get nothing conclusive from the blocks.

He quite strongly advises for immediate ethanol fusion in the case of spavin (explained thoroughly why and it does make total sense) and also felt surgery was nearly always the best option for suspensory.

I’m beyond gutted I’ve failed to keep him sound .Spavin wouldn’t surprise me but suspensory? This is a horse whose done 80-90% of his working life out hacking. I always associated it with horses working on crap surfaces etc. I’m not sure how I feel about surgery having lost Basil in anaesthetic recovery, I know he had a fracture we couldn’t see but I feel terrified at the idea of putting Boggle through an anaesthetic...

Reconvening neXt Wednesday for blocking as ran out of time this evening. if we can’t find a clear diagnosis we will go straight for a bone scan. My poor Bog

 

[Rowreach]

Did he ever feel suddenly lame (say, out hunting) and immediately sound straight away afterwards, like seconds later?

 

[Michen]

Did he ever feel suddenly lame (say, out hunting) and immediately sound straight away afterwards, like seconds later?

Never. Can not pinpoint it whatsoever. And it started before hunting- I have videos of him doing it albeit only a few times from camp in November I just never noticed because it wasn’t so clear cut then. Only when I trawled back through.

edited to say actually no now I think about it he had done maybe 3 days hunting before camp. But on excellent ground (not that it matters) and definitely can’t think of an “incident”

 

[Wheels]

Hopefully the blocks will show something up that is easily sortable! Will he scan the suspensory?

Well done you for noticing and investigating, good luck x

 

[Rowreach]

Did the vet say why he's recommending surgery if it's suspensory?

 

[Michen]

Yes he will scan it assuming a positive block.

He said the statistics for horses coming sound without surgery aren’t great. But there’s lots of things to talk about and factor in, was just an initial opinion

 

[SEL]

Is he going to scan / x ray as well as nerve block? Treatment options seem quite extreme - no chance of strengthening up? Or even cure by paddock rest?

Good on you for following your gut. Wish you'd had better news.

 

[SEL]

Yes he will scan it assuming a positive block.

He said the statistics for horses coming sound without surgery aren’t great. But there’s lots of things to talk about and factor in, was just an initial opinion

X posted. PSD group on Facebook quite good

 

[oldie48]

Poor Bog but also poor you, I can only imagine how worried you must be. Seems like you have a very good vet and Bog certainly has a very good owner, fingers crossed that your worst fears are just that. Sending an electronic hug.

 

[Michen]

I keep wracking my brains after what Rowreach posted. I have a vague vague memory of a back leg possibly going down a hole when out with the RA... but just can’t remember, the days all morph into one...argh!

 

[Michen]

Poor Bog but also poor you, I can only imagine how worried you must be. Seems like you have a very good vet and Bog certainly has a very good owner, fingers crossed that your worst fears are just that. Sending an electronic hug.

Thank you. My vet is superb. He was with me for two solid hours today, we repeated so much to narrow something down. Bog and I exhausted after!!. There aren’t many like him.

 

[ester]

I wondered if it tied in with big hedge jumping?

I'd never have an ethanol fusion done, I would have a hind PSD op done. (Obviously only when indicated!)

 

[Michen]

I wondered if it tied in with big hedge jumping?

I'd never have an ethanol fusion done, I would have a hind PSD op done. (Obviously only when indicated!)

That was definitely post when he started doing it so can rule that out as the cause thankfully as not sure I’d forgive myself if that was it.

ps why not re ethanol? It’s going to be a tricky one as there is no vet I trust more but.. I was quite surprised re ethanol also.

 

[ihatework]

Try not to fast forward too rapidly!!!

You have something so mild it can’t be seen on regular examination.

For me I’d X-ray the hocks, scan the suspensories and if nothing majorly obvious lob some steroid in for diagnostic purposes and see what happens.

I wouldn’t even be thinking about ethanol or surgery until imaging is done.

 

[ester]

Worth searching Stanleys hock fusion journey on here. Failures/complications/nerve regrowth/ending up having surgical done in the end anyway.
A while since I properly looked into it from a papers point of view.

 

[Michen]

Try not to fast forward too rapidly!!!

You have something so mild it can’t be seen on regular examination.

For me I’d X-ray the hocks, scan the suspensories and if nothing majorly obvious lob some steroid in for diagnostic purposes and see what happens.

I wouldn’t even be thinking about ethanol or surgery until imaging is done.

Yup. Vet feels blocking is more important than images in some ways (though obviously we will take them) as he said we may see nothing of note but get a positive block. I wanted him to scan the suspensories today with the time we had but he said no, as even if there is something on the scans we need to do our best to get a positive block so blocks then scan/x day accordingly.

We have a full set of x rays from 2.5 years ago and they were clean at the time.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Try not to fast forward too rapidly!!!

You have something so mild it can’t be seen on regular examination.

For me I’d X-ray the hocks, scan the suspensories and if nothing majorly obvious lob some steroid in for diagnostic purposes and see what happens.

I wouldn’t even be thinking about ethanol or surgery until imaging is done.

I actually agree with this I would not rush into surgery have scans and x rays first, I don't know much about the ethanol fusion so I am off to Google that now! In regards to suspensory surgery I personally wouldn't de nerve I just don't like the thought of it but I know many people do I think it's just down to how you feel about it.

 

[ihatework]

Yup. Vet feels blocking is more important than images in some ways (though obviously we will take them) as he said we may see nothing of note but get a positive block. I wanted him to scan the suspensories today with the time we had but he said no, as even if there is something on the scans we need to do our best to get a positive block so blocks then scan/x day accordingly.

We have a full set of x rays from 2.5 years ago and they were clean at the time.

Can he scan the suspensory immediately after blocking? I thought the block impacted the image?

Xrays from 2 years ago mean nothing other than a baseline

 

[Michen]

I actually agree with this I would not rush into surgery have scans and x rays first, I don't know much about the ethanol fusion so I am off to Google that now! In regards to suspensory surgery I personally wouldn't de nerve I just don't like the thought of it but I know many people do I think it's just down to how you feel about it.

Sorry guys should have been clear there will definitely be scans, x rays, blocks etc first!!! Not sug

Can he scan the suspensory immediately after blocking? I thought the block impacted the image?

I’m not sure- he didn’t mention it being a problem? He might not be intending to scan on the same day maybe then? I quite often whizz Boggle there to avoid call outs but on this occasion we are doing at home to use the school as only a round pen at the vets.

 

[Rowreach]

I keep wracking my brains after what Rowreach posted. I have a vague vague memory of a back leg possibly going down a hole when out with the RA... but just can’t remember, the days all morph into one...argh!

Reason I asked is because I’ve seen it happen several times out hunting, but because the horse is instantly sound it doesn’t really register at the time. It’s a bit like when you go over on your ankle, hop for a couple of steps and then walk fine.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Just to add my horse had a nasty hole in a hind suspensory vet didn't think it would heal, they recommended prp treatment and he had nearly 6 months box rest, vet was surprised the hole had disappeared and horse was sound, so there are things to try before surgery that can work.

 

[Tiddlypom]

My very sensible Irish vet refuses to perform ethanol fusion as she thinks it is inhumane and far too drastic and risky a procedure. I am very surprised that a vet should suggest ethanol fusion as an initial treatment for a very mild lameness.

 

[ycbm]

Ah shit, but what a great owner you are, M. Well done for pursuing it so doggedly before it was too serious to fix.


.

 

[ycbm]

My very sensible Irish vet refuses to perform ethanol fusion as she thinks it is inhumane and far too drastic and risky a procedure.

I only know of cases which have failed, it's not a procedure I would have done. I would wait for natural fusion using bute if necessary meanwhile.

.

 

[Michen]

Ah shit, but what a great owner you are, M. Well done for pursuing it so doggedly before it was too serious to fix.


.

Thanks but I feel like a royally shit one for not picking up on it in November. Maybe it even started before then. If I’d jumped him a little more between now and then I’d have probably noticed it sooner. In between it appearing and now he’s been had a day jumping huge hedges out of deep ground and several other days (albiet with no jumping)...

I genuinely thought he’d be LESS likely to get this kind of problem given he doesn’t spend his life in the school.

 

[ester]

I think the trouble is that some never fuse naturally.

Anyway we may be jumping the gun, pre diagnostics

 

[Michen]

Interesting re fusion guys.
My vet did say it was only (lower?) hock joint he’d go straight to it for, but he said out of 75 cases he’s had in recent years ohly 2 have failed in terms of soundness.

Anyway it may not be that, and it may be that I lob him out in the field for a year or two and do nothing for whatever it is.

 

[dixie]

My very sensible Irish vet refuses to perform ethanol fusion as she thinks it is inhumane and far too drastic and risky a procedure. I am very surprised that a vet should suggest ethanol fusion as an initial treatment for a very mild lameness.

As does mine, also Irish. Said it was a last resort. Surprised it’s being suggested already.
i had a horse tweak his hind suspensories. He did it panicking in the trailer at a show when a lorry pulled up behind. I only knew because he pulled a shoe off too and then we got E sj and he never normally stopped. Anyway after scanning he was rested for 3 months I think and recovered really well. Hopefully this can be the case here.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks but I feel like a royally shit one for not picking up on it in November. Maybe it even started before then. If I’d jumped him a little more between now and then I’d have probably noticed it sooner. In between it appearing and now he’s been had a day jumping huge hedges out of deep ground and several other days (albiet with no jumping)...

I genuinely thought he’d be LESS likely to get this kind of problem given he doesn’t spend his life in the school.

Cut yourself some slack, most people would never have investigated a horse jumping that happily who just disunites a bit. You've done good, girl!

.

 

[ester]

quite, she has a very good michen beating stick though never quite managed to get it off her!