Boggle update

[Michen]

Cut yourself some slack, most people would never have investigated a horse jumping that happily who just disunites a bit. You've done good, girl!

.

Hopefully whatever decision I make next is the right one.

Would anyone think chucking in a field for a year (would have to accept no insurance after all) may actually be the best thing to do regardless of what it is?

 

[ester]

no

 

[ihatework]

No I wouldn’t. Not at this point in time anyway.

Before I imagine any more scenarios I want to see images

 

[Michen]

quite, she has a very good michen beating stick though never quite managed to get it off her!

Ok but imagine the scenario of controlled walk work. On Boggle. Or paddock field rest on a horse who canters over to his trough when he decides he wants a drink.

 

[Michen]

Also it was this exact day three years ago that I lost Basil, so you can imagine I’m currently feeling like a total fruit loop and tucking into tub number one of Ben and Jerry’s ???

 

[ycbm]

Hopefully whatever decision I make next is the right one.

Would anyone think chucking in a field for a year (would have to accept no insurance after all) may actually be the best thing to do regardless of what it is?

Soft tissue yes.

Hock spavin no, needs work to help fuse.

Combination of both, yes, I'd try, but I loathe box rest which skews my judgement.

 

[ycbm]

Also it was this exact day three years ago that I lost Basil, so you can imagine I’m currently feeling like a total fruit loop and tucking into tub number one of Ben and Jerry’s ???

Come on, share!

.

 

[Red-1]

I would not do the operation right now either. Jay Man had a front suspensory, and if he had the operation he would have been barred from affiliated competition from then on. People argue against, but I did contact the relevant organisations and they confirmed what my vet had said.

He had PRP, shockwave, rest, ArcEquine, Ice and controlled return to work and the suspensory cleared up, scanned clean and was never a bother again (did some dressage and jumping) but he then became a wobbler so did not return to BE afterwards.

Had the above not worked then I would have done the operation. It would seem a shame to bar him from competitions in the future for something that is so mild it is not showing even on flexions.

 

[Michen]

I would not do the operation right now either. Jay Man had a front suspensory, and if he had the operation he would have been barred from affiliated competition from then on. People argue against, but I did contact the relevant organisations and they confirmed what my vet had said.

He had PRP, shockwave, rest, ArcEquine, Ice and controlled return to work and the suspensory cleared up, scanned clean and was never a bother again (did some dressage and jumping) but he then became a wobbler so did not return to BE afterwards.

Had the above not worked then I would have done the operation. It would seem a shame to bar him from competitions in the future for something that is so mild it is not showing even on flexions.

Thanks. Interesting. Vet said shockwave a viable option for front but rarely truly successful behind (depending on what you want to do with the horse).

 

[ester]

crack open the second tub and I'll get me spoon.

 

[budatiger]

I saw your post on the PSD FB page. Just wanted to add my experience. My boy was also only 1/10 lame. Vets struggled to block the area with a definitive result. X-rays showed very minor changes to both hocks. Horse was only 5. Had steroids/HA and controlled in hand walking, but got worse. Declared likely PSD & suggested MRI to confirm, under GA, with PRP. I requested an ultrasound but they made it clear that these are often massively inaccurate. This was a huge teaching hospital with a respected lameness specialist. They did it anyway & declared large lesion on one hind with chronic changes to both. So off has MRI under GA with PRP at same time. MRI showed no suspensory issues at all! And hock changes to be so minor & likely due to compensation. So be cautious about how PSD is diagnosed. I dread to think how many horses have had the op on the back of misleading ultrasounds. I know 4 horses that had the op & I’m sad to say none remained sound more than 2 years.
I hope you get more positive news.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks. Interesting. Vet said shockwave a viable option for front but rarely truly successful behind (depending on what you want to do with the horse).

There is one on the Rockleyfarm blog that had shockwave and as far as I know was fine.

.

 

[Michen]

I saw your post on the PSD FB page. Just wanted to add my experience. My boy was also only 1/10 lame. Vets struggled to block the area with a definitive result. X-rays showed very minor changes to both hocks. Horse was only 5. Had steroids/HA and controlled in hand walking, but got worse. Declared likely PSD & suggested MRI to confirm, under GA, with PRP. I requested an ultrasound but they made it clear that these are often massively inaccurate. This was a huge teaching hospital with a respected lameness specialist. They did it anyway & declared large lesion on one hind with chronic changes to both. So off has MRI under GA with PRP at same time. MRI showed no suspensory issues at all! And hock changes to be so minor & likely due to compensation. So be cautious about how PSD is diagnosed. I dread to think how many horses have had the op on the back of misleading ultrasounds. I know 4 horses that had the op & I’m sad to say none remained sound more than 2 years.
I hope you get more positive news.

Thank you. I spent all evening reading about PSD and went from being fairly gutted to completely gutted in a very short space of time. The stories all seemed doom and gloom, certainly whatever road we go down seems like a very long one.

 

[JFTDWS]

I would never even consider operating for PSD, I have real issues with some of the claims vets make about success rates. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time, it's utterly rubbish for you.

 

[Michen]

I would never even consider operating for PSD, I have real issues with some of the claims vets make about success rates. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time, it's utterly rubbish for you.

Whatever it is or the options it's going to be tricky, because I REALLY trust my vet. TBH my gut right now is telling me to not go down this utter rabbit hole of never ending diagnostics which could throw up god knows what, but just turn him away for 6 months and then bring back into work immensely slowly.

It's obviously a very mild lameness, I can't help but think Dr Green may be the way forward here?

I'm trying to look at this a bit pragmatically. Look hard enough and you will find. Do I really want/need to know what the actual problem is? Am I likely to put him through surgery for a lameness this mild? Probably not. Would I box rest for months on end? Unlikely.

 

[JFTDWS]

Whatever it is or the options it's going to be tricky, because I REALLY trust my vet. TBH my gut right now is telling me to not go down this utter rabbit hole of never ending diagnostics which could throw up god knows what, but just turn him away for 6 months and then bring back into work immensely slowly.

It's obviously a very mild lameness, I can't help but think Dr Green may be the way forward here?

It is probably what I would do. But that definitely doesn't make it the right answer. I don't think there is a right answer, to be honest. You'll either get lucky or you won't - and if you go down the intervention route and get lucky, you'll put it down as a success of the procedure, and if you go down the field rest route you'll put it down as that - but you could equally be unlucky either way. Personally, I'd rather give a (field sound) horse the turnout and happy life of being turned away, and take the risk of that not working, than the stress of an op with a real risk of it not working either. But that's a very personal decision.

 

[milliepops]

I don't think there is a right answer, to be honest. You'll either get lucky or you won't - and if you go down the intervention route and get lucky, you'll put it down as a success of the procedure, and if you go down the field rest route you'll put it down as that - but you could equally be unlucky either way.

^ this.
It still sounds like it's too early to be making any decisions either way.
That said I tend to be the opposite of JFTD and if I'm insured then I am a throw-everything-at-it kind of person but that is as a result of watching other people's horses have "niggles" neglected and getting worse for not being investigated, so I accept I have my own baggage there which makes it hard to be objective.

 

[Michen]

^ this.
It still sounds like it's too early to be making any decisions either way.
That said I tend to be the opposite of JFTD and if I'm insured then I am a throw-everything-at-it kind of person but that is as a result of watching other people's horses have "niggles" neglected and getting worse for not being investigated, so I accept I have my own baggage there which makes it hard to be objective.

It totally is, I am absolutely jumping the gun. Waiting until next Wednesday is going to be complete torture. In the mean time vet wants me to work him as much as possibly so we have something to see which is going to feel weird.

 

[milliepops]

as it's so minor I don't think you need to feel at all bad about doing that, though I would also feel weird.

 

[ForeverBroke_]

Hi Michen.

So sorry that you've not had the outcome you had hoped for with Boggle. I just wanted to reply to say that my low-mileage 6yo has also had problems with his hind suspensories so I totally feel your pain. He had 4 months box rest, shock wave,PRP and I hired an Arc-Equine, and touch wood, on our last scan you wouldn't have known there was any injury there. We have just about got up to trot work and hopefully, so far so good. I also know of a friend who threw everything at her horse also and he is now up to Medium Dressage again..so try to keep positive. Best of Luck xx

 

[ycbm]

It is probably what I would do. But that definitely doesn't make it the right answer. I don't think there is a right answer, to be honest. You'll either get lucky or you won't - and if you go down the intervention route and get lucky, you'll put it down as a success of the procedure, and if you go down the field rest route you'll put it down as that - but you could equally be unlucky either way. Personally, I'd rather give a (field sound) horse the turnout and happy life of being turned away, and take the risk of that not working, than the stress of an op with a real risk of it not working either. But that's a very personal decision.

Couldn't have written this better myself. My feelings entirely.

 

[FourLeafClover]

I can sympathise with all this, mine had bilateral neurectomy and fasciotomy in July. Got back on him early October, have been lightly hacking in walk and trot since then (on and off, weather allowing - vet actually said to pick up work in November but due to lack of facilities and bad ground didn’t until the end of January). In the last couple of weeks we have introduced canter both in an arena and out hacking, had a little jump and touch wood.... he feels amazing and is super free and happy behind despite also having arthritis in both hocks diagnosed at the same time! Obviously we aren’t “out of the woods” but we are very positive about his prognosis.
Sending all the healing vibes. PSD is a crap diagnosis if it’s that but it’s not career ending ?

 

[SpringArising]

I'd personally chuck him out for six months. He's probably going to do less harm being given freedom than he would with 'forced rest' cooped up and going stir crazy.

I would have a similar issue to you in that there's no way my horse (also a Connie, also a handful at the best of times) wouldn't tolerate the rest required for a suspensory. He recently had a three week stint in for a wound-related lameness and he was extremely difficult to manage - rearing in hand, falling over, etc. etc. I had hat, gloves, boots and lunge on just to lead him out the stable. I was so relieved when he could go back out.

There are some horses I'd consider the full shebang of rehab for, and others I just wouldn't because it wouldn't be fair.

I also don't think the prognosis of hind suspensories is good enough for me to put one through surgery or box rest for so long.

You've had really rubbish luck with him - and yes, it's luck, not management.

 

[Michen]

So, from what I’ve been reading it’s pretty much a given that for hind limb suspensories rest alone is pretty unlikely to work. Which has shot my turning away thought out a little bit. The statistics seem to indicate a 10% chance of coming sound from just rest. Shockwave therapy as an added therapy is an option with success rates varying dependent on whether it’s an acute injury or chronic (no idea how you tell) but again, success rates low though they do increase. Surgery seems to genuinely have the highest success rates but there’s little evidence of whether those horses are still in full work after several years (same with conservative treatment though).

Boggle will box rest, I had to for a couple of weeks when he had a lump removed and a huge hole and actually he went very quiet and withdrawn! Whether he would in hand walk, rehab etc I don’t know as never really had to do it.

I’m not going to carry on stressing about surgery as an option until I know what I’m dealing with. I got myself into a total state today, basically concluding from my research that for a “sound” horse surgery was the only option, and it’s throwing up horrible horrible memories of what happened with Basil. 1% of horses undergoing surgery die.

If you can all just keep your fingers crossed that it’s a bit of spavin, or even better an abscess that’s been brewing for months and months ?

 

[Michen]

I can sympathise with all this, mine had bilateral neurectomy and fasciotomy in July. Got back on him early October, have been lightly hacking in walk and trot since then (on and off, weather allowing - vet actually said to pick up work in November but due to lack of facilities and bad ground didn’t until the end of January). In the last couple of weeks we have introduced canter both in an arena and out hacking, had a little jump and touch wood.... he feels amazing and is super free and happy behind despite also having arthritis in both hocks diagnosed at the same time! Obviously we aren’t “out of the woods” but we are very positive about his prognosis.
Sending all the healing vibes. PSD is a crap diagnosis if it’s that but it’s not career ending ?

Thanks for this. What were his symptoms? I can’t even say Boggle has a loss of performance, as he’s schooling brilliantly and jumping well.. it is literally just the disuniting over a fence that made me investigate. If I hadn’t done any SJ I would be absolutely none the wiser. Should have stuck to the hunting after all..

 

[Michen]

as it's so minor I don't think you need to feel at all bad about doing that, though I would also feel weird.

His lovely sharer is riding him today and tomorrow. She just messaged to say how strange it is because his flat work just feels better than ever. Oh the irony!

 

[ycbm]

If you can all just keep your fingers crossed that it’s a bit of spavin, or even better an abscess that’s been brewing for months and months ?

?????

 

[ycbm]

Michen don't forget that the statistics for recovery from PSD by field rest won't include what is probably a very high number of horses whose owners never got a diagnosis, just had a horse like yours who 'wasn't quite right' and turned it away for a few weeks.

.

 

[PaintPonies]

Really feel for you but as others have said try not to get ahead of yourself. You say you trust your vet so wait to see if nerve blocks shed any more light on the problem and take it from there. I would be exactly the same with exploring all the options and going round and round in circles but it won't help you at this stage. Good luck for Wednesday!

 

[ForeverBroke_]

Michen - how come PRP hasn't been recommended to you yet? Have you managed to have a read up on that - it might put your mind at rest P.S mine didn't display any symptoms other than going disunited occasionally on one rein in canter. I actually had the vet out to assess him for ulcers but we trotted him up and he was 1/10 lame behind.