BOGOF! Where do I stand on this and wwyd?

[Doormouse]

Please help people, real dilemma here.

In May I bought a section a pony for my daughter through free ads. Lovely people, very professional, pony only 7 but safe as houses, perfect for my 2 year old daughter to grow with, easy to keep as young and no lami or cushings problems. We had a lovely summer doing little bits with her but I really struggled to get the weight off her, she arrived fat and despite my very determined efforts, remained that way.

Fast forward to now, surprise surprise, she is in foal. I had had my suspicions for a while but confirmed today. No idea what it is by and no idea of timings. I have contacted the sellers who say she was out on loan before coming back to them to sell so will have to contact the loan home to find out more.

Where do I stand? I have zero facilities for a mare and foal, my daughter now hasn't got anything to ride next summer and I am going to be stuck with an ankle biter that has no value at all. Can I ask that the sellers take her back? Would anyone buy her in this condition? What on earth do I do? I am so sad, the pony is an angel, I am very worried about the potential size of the foal and even more worried about how I would manage them on my livery yard that is full of big horses.

 

[*hic*]

Well if you want a purely practical solution to the problem your daughter is tiny, she's going to be walking and trotting only and weighs nothing so she could keep riding right up until just before delivery - you're hardly going to have a tot out for hours at a time. Then as the foal turns up have it pts and dry the mare off. It's not the most pleasant solution but it's probably the cheapest, assuming nothing goes wrong with the foaling and keeps your daughter riding.

 

[Doormouse]

Well if you want a purely practical solution to the problem your daughter is tiny, she's going to be walking and trotting only and weighs nothing so she could keep riding right up until just before delivery - you're hardly going to have a tot out for hours at a time. Then as the foal turns up have it pts and dry the mare off. It's not the most pleasant solution but it's probably the cheapest, assuming nothing goes wrong with the foaling and keeps your daughter riding.

You make an extremely good point and to be fair my daughter only rides about once a week at the moment due to weather and daylight hours. The pony is currently being a nanny to my 3 year old, living out and it all works very well.

As you say, not a pleasant solution but probably a realistic one especially with the number of unwanted horses already. Question is, would I be able to go through with it?

 

[Dave's Mam]

That is harsh, but sadly the very real solution.

 

[Rhodders]

wow I couldn't look at a wee foal and have it murdered just because it shouldn't have really been born

 

[Sandstone1]

wow I couldn't look at a wee foal and have it murdered just because it shouldn't have really been born

Me too.

 

[Jinx94]

Me too.

But if the OP doesn't have the facilities to keep this foal which in the current market is incredibly unlikely to sell, and bearing in mind that the OP doesn't want a foal and did not knowingly buy the mare in foal, surely it is the best option?

 

[bakewell]

You could probably get it aborted right now.
Not pleasant, but avoid size of foal/ delivery at full term danger. However the uterus is generally the deciding factor for the size of a foal at birth.
Have you had her scanned?

 

[Doormouse]

wow I couldn't look at a wee foal and have it murdered just because it shouldn't have really been born

In principle I couldn't agree more and also very cruel to the mare but the harsh reality is what life will that foal have? It will be unregistered, parentage on one side unknown, who would want it? Maybe someone with their own land perhaps but it would be no use as a companion as a weanling really, like all small ponies as it gets older lami is a potential threat so management is harder. It's a long way from 6 months old to 4 to be broken as a child's pony. How many just broken or unbroken small ponies do you see advertised for a pittance? Hundreds. Do they all get nice homes? Probably not. I keep my horses on a livery yard, there is no provision for a mare and foal, I will have to pay as soon as that foal arrives another £60 per month for at least 6 months and that is even if I can persuade the yo to make a secure place for them to live during that time.

Having said all that, faced with a tiny healthy foal could I do it? The real answer is very probably no.

 

[Doormouse]

You could probably get it aborted right now.
Not pleasant, but avoid size of foal/ delivery at full term danger. However the uterus is generally the deciding factor for the size of a foal at birth.
Have you had her scanned?

I think it is probably too late to abort, she looks pretty far gone. I am kicking myself now for no insisting that the vets blood test in the summer when I suspected something but they made me feel so silly when I suggested it and the sellers also said it was impossible that I crumbled in a pathetic fashion and left it be. Won't make that mistake again.

I haven't had her scanned yet, will be the next stage I guess to determine timings of arrival.

 

[YorksG]

If she is a first time foaler,it is unlikely that the foal will be too big at delivery. I would discuss the options with the vet, sooner rather than later.

 

[Orangehorse]

This is grim. But if the foal died at birth it would be the same. You have to keep the pony in a stable for a few days and a bit short of food and water "cruel to be kind." After a few days the milk will dry up and the mare will be fine again.

If you decide that this is the best thing could you get someone else to do the deed, so you don't have to be there?

 

[Doormouse]

But if the OP doesn't have the facilities to keep this foal which in the current market is incredibly unlikely to sell, and bearing in mind that the OP doesn't want a foal and did not knowingly buy the mare in foal, surely it is the best option?

That's the thing, facilities. My current yard would potentially be dangerous for a mare and foal of that size. I have no stable for her, no barn and the only possible field is the pony paddock which is occupied by another section a gelding and a section d mare who can be aggressive. They can't go anywhere else as they get lami very easily and I wouldn't feel at all safe making an electric fence pen in one of the big fields with the other horses in case anyone escaped and one of the horses kicked the pony or the foal, could be the end of either of them.

 

[bakewell]

If it's under 4 months (which stands a fairly good chance of being the case but vet can confirm) you don't ever need to see it as a foal. Plus the mare won't come in to milk. And she won't mourn it.

 

[Doormouse]

If it's under 4 months (which stands a fairly good chance of being the case but vet can confirm) you don't ever need to see it as a foal. Plus the mare won't come in to milk. And she won't mourn it.

I bought her in May and the sellers got her back from loan in April so I think she is probably about 7 months by now maybe even more.

 

[Doormouse]

This is grim. But if the foal died at birth it would be the same. You have to keep the pony in a stable for a few days and a bit short of food and water "cruel to be kind." After a few days the milk will dry up and the mare will be fine again.

If you decide that this is the best thing could you get someone else to do the deed, so you don't have to be there?

It is grim, would without doubt be the hardest decision I have ever had to make re horses. I would actually be more worried about the effect it would have on the mare but I guess mares loose foals all the time and they get over it ok so maybe I'm just putting human feelings to her.

 

[flaxen]

wow I couldn't look at a wee foal and have it murdered just because it shouldn't have really been born[/QUOTE
I know of a stud farm that did just that, the mare had been very sick towards the end of her pregnancy and wasn't expected to survive but she did and she was in foal to a top stallion and was carrying a valuable foal, she foaled a perfectly healthy but small filly and the stud called work out and had them both euthanised, they were insured for morality!!

How far on in foal roughly is your pony? Did the vet give you any idea of size or was she blood tested? While its not pleasant for your pony to abort her foal now it is possible and I've known brood mares abort foals at this stage and even 9-10 mths in foal due to cord strangulation, it will be less stressful now than her foaling a live foal down to then bond with it for it to then be euthanised.

 

[bakewell]

I bought her in May and the sellers got her back from loan in April so I think she is probably about 7 months by now maybe even more.

Mhmm that is trickier. Stillbirths they fuss at for a bit and then seem to lose interest.
You could have it dealt with surgically (££) and obv riskier for the mare.

Realistically, no matter how cute foals are, they often grow into unwanted horses in the current climate. I would definitely consider having someone else deal with delivery etc rather than yourself if you decide to take it to full term. Perhaps get her stabled at the hunt that week if you could.

 

[WelshD]

Its a very long shot but maybe contact the National Foaling Bank (I think thats what its called) for a chat. There wont be any where near as many mares needing foals as there will be orphaned foals needing mares but you do see appeals online from people whose much loved mare has lost a foal and who want to keep that mare happy by taking on a foal so you may be able to rehome the foal at an early age

I am not sure you'd have much luck with the seller as they can simply claim they sold the mare in good faith

 

[Doormouse]

wow I couldn't look at a wee foal and have it murdered just because it shouldn't have really been born[/QUOTE
I know of a stud farm that did just that, the mare had been very sick towards the end of her pregnancy and wasn't expected to survive but she did and she was in foal to a top stallion and was carrying a valuable foal, she foaled a perfectly healthy but small filly and the stud called work out and had them both euthanised, they were insured for morality!!

How far on in foal roughly is your pony? Did the vet give you any idea of size or was she blood tested? While its not pleasant for your pony to abort her foal now it is possible and I've known brood mares abort foals at this stage and even 9-10 mths in foal due to cord strangulation, it will be less stressful now than her foaling a live foal down to then bond with it for it to then be euthanised.

She was blood tested as the vet said she was too small to have an internal. I presume a scan would tell us how far along she is? Also if it was aborted now I assume she would have to birth the foal but it would be dead? Sorry to ask stupid questions but I know very little about breeding.

 

[Palindrome]

Rehome the mare now or just the foal once he's weaned. If your YO can't set up a small paddock for them you always have the option to move them somewhere else (perhaps a stud?) just before the foal is born.

 

[Doormouse]

Mhmm that is trickier. Stillbirths they fuss at for a bit and then seem to lose interest.
You could have it dealt with surgically (££) and obv riskier for the mare.

Realistically, no matter how cute foals are, they often grow into unwanted horses in the current climate. I would definitely consider having someone else deal with delivery etc rather than yourself if you decide to take it to full term. Perhaps get her stabled at the hunt that week if you could.

Again apologies for stupid questions / musings because breeding is not an area I know anything about but is it easier for the mare to process and understand a foal born dead than one that is born live and then removed? I assume the former but haven't had any experience of mares and foals.

 

[AmyMay]

wow I couldn't look at a wee foal and have it murdered just because it shouldn't have really been born

Nor me.

What a completely hideous suggestion.

Where in the country are you. Is there a H&H member that can help you out here with foaling facilities?

 

[Mongoose11]

[/QUOTEthey were insured for morality!![/QUOTE]

What an interesting Freudian slip!

 

[Doormouse]

Rehome the mare now or just the foal once he's weaned. If your YO can't set up a small paddock for them you always have the option to move them somewhere else (perhaps a stud?) just before the foal is born.

Easy enough in theory but in practice I very much doubt I would be able to give either of them away at this stage or the foal later on. I certainly would worry about the home they would go to, I wouldn't be able to guarantee that someone wouldn't take the mare and do exactly what I'm considering doing. The foal could end up god knows where. There are already hundreds of unwanted horses and ponies in this country, the rescues are full to bursting, how responsible would it be for me to add another one to the world?

 

[bakewell]

She was blood tested as the vet said she was too small to have an internal. I presume a scan would tell us how far along she is? Also if it was aborted now I assume she would have to birth the foal but it would be dead? Sorry to ask stupid questions but I know very little about breeding.

The foal won't be capable of surviving outside the womb, pre 300 days is non-viable. It will look recognisable as a tiny foal. Smaller than you'd think as most growth comes at the end.
The method used to induce would influence the delivery; surgical or shot. You might be a bit late for shots, and they may not be successful.

 

[_GG_]

Doormouse, check your PM's. I can possibly help.

 

[AmyMay]

Doormouse, check your PM's. I can possibly help.

Yaaayy!

 

[flaxen]

[/QUOTEthey were insured for morality!!

What an interesting Freudian slip![/QUOTE]

That is my stupid phone changing words ive typed to what it thinks ive wanted to type. It should say "mortality"!!

 

[Doormouse]

Nor me.

What a completely hideous suggestion.

Doormouse, do you keep your horses at home?

Sadly no. If I did then I wouldn't even consider it, if I had my own land and space, was master of my horses and my turnout etc it would be fine. But, I don't and I'm not. I'm a single mother, I work my backside off to afford my own horse and a pony for my daughter but money is very tight indeed. I couldn't afford to send her to a stud to foal, I would really struggle to find an extra £60 a month basic livery. I could possibly find a field somewhere but unlikely in my area as small grazing fields are like hens teeth, dairy country so the worst type of grass for small ponies.

Believe you me, this is not an option that fills me with anything but horror, I have never faced such an awful dilemma.