Box walking!

[Nari]

I think you'd be daft to leave a yard owner like that for a yard offering far less support. You have transport, you can always hire better facilities and that will have the advantage of getting her out working in different places so when you are competing you have a horse that isn't bothered by new surroundings.

 

[Trouper]

I think most people would kill for a YO like that. I would probably only move if the most important advantage of the new yard outweighed all the benefits of a good YO.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

I've had some brilliant attentive and very communicative YO's. And then as unbelievable as it may seem I have had the other end of the spectrum where YO's aren't aware what field is allocated to what horse, or even what that horses name/owners name is!

If you are lucky enough to find a yard where you have a nice stable, plenty of storage space, a good paddock AND a decent YO then you are very lucky indeed and I wouldn't be leaving anytime soon. My yard where I keep mine, when all runs smoothly makes me feel relaxed. Its like putting on a familiar pair of slippers.

Its great that your friends are at another yard and you could move over to join them, but you are not guaranteed that you would spend anymore time with them even if you did so.

 

[Fiona]

I think you should stay AE....

It sounds like Deedee is settling slowly fingers crossed...

Fiona

 

[Dyllymoo]

Horses view pigs as predators, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was the cause of the issue

Literally did not know this. There is a large pig in a field near our yard (in with horses), I thought it was a Shetland at first and then it moved away from the herd, J looked and stared and then carefully walked past the field (as if he was tip toeing... which I know sounds stupid!), but I didn't know they were viewed as predators.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Literally did not know this. There is a large pig in a field near our yard (in with horses), I thought it was a Shetland at first and then it moved away from the herd, J looked and stared and then carefully walked past the field (as if he was tip toeing... which I know sounds stupid!), but I didn't know they were viewed as predators.

Like I said in reply 28 the wild boars would gore them in the stomach with their tusks and wait for their intestines to fall out which would weaken them, they would collapse and die of shock and then the pigs would devour them. In some countries men ride out on horses with 3 metre spears and hunt wild boar.

 

[Leo Walker]

Some horses are fine with pigs. Some absolutely lose the plot. I'm always aware that pigs might be an issue with any horse.

 

[SEL]

I obviously have the only horse who licks the snout of the pig by our entrance gate.... It's a boar too. Apparently they got it as a baby and it was supposed to stay mini sized. Didn't stay mini size.

AE youR YO sounds lovely!

 

[Ambers Echo]

She is lovely but even she accepts that Deedee is struggling. I was away at Champs this weekend so YO rode her on Friday and Izzy on Sunday. YO said she was freaking out because the jump wings were lying down and not stood up. She was then a spooky nightmare for Izzy on Sunday when another horse was napping. I honestly don't think she's a spooky horse. I just think the pig and the general yard vibe is so overwhelming that she can just about hold it together most of the time and then loses it when the tiniest additional stressor appears. She is losing weight, I am concerned about ulcers. So sad though it is to leave we are taking her to the new yard on Sunday.

 

[milliepops]

I think it's the right decision AE. Sometimes they just don't settle in a place. It would be a shame for your daughter to have problems with her when they are such a new partnership. Fingers crossed for you all. x

 

[be positive]

I also think it the right decision, some will settle given time but others, often the sensitive mares, will gradually become worse until most things in normal life can be an issue, break the pattern and you may get a relaxed happy horse back, I really hope it works out.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks MP and BE. I went up this morning and discovered the teenage weekend staff had let the pig be free-range over the weekend so it was ambling about all over the yard. Deedee was out in her field but presumably she could smell it had been wandering around? (The YO was with us at Champs). So I think Deedee had just about got her head round the fact that the pig was in its pen and could tolerate it. But she now thinks it could be anywhere. Izzy was really puzzled by her behaviour last night because the pig was inside and she could not even see it. Maybe being able to smell but not see it was worse so she was suspicious of everything! She was fine again this morning with pig visible in pen - though she did look at it and scooted past as we went to the arena. But then did some lovely, calm work on the lunge. But it is just a kid-friendly, very noisy, very busy yard with too much going on. And a flaming pig! I really hope it works out at the new place. I don't want 2 horses for myself! I need Izzy to be able to ride and handle her independently.

 

[Wheels]

Good luck with the move, it's so upsetting to see them unhappy

 

[SEL]

I think a free range pig would likely send a few of ours into a state as well. They all know it's in a pen and tolerate it there - but wandering round would be a completely different scenario.

I hope she settles well in her new yard.

 

[ScampiBigMan]

Had a look for info on Deedee after reading your weekend plans post. Just wanted to say that she sounds a little like Nix. We got her from Ireland at 4. Never seen a horse look so horrified as when she saw the pigs. It took her easily 6months to start to settle generally & prob more like 9 to feel comfortable. She lived out 24\7 with 3others at home. Sheep & pigs free range. She was over reactive about sheep ,trees rocks, water (i.e. Everything!) at home & when out. She pawed the floor constantly when tied up & could not settle if left in for any time.

I took the 1st 6m v easy with work. V little schooling, lots of hacking out to develop her mind & body, low pressure. It was gradual but it developed trust in me, the anxiety diminished & she began to relax. She then continued to gain confidence & has become the boss of everything 4yrs later! Her reactivity is what makes her so good but she had to learn how to control it. Flooding would be a concern with her. She has to be given the time & space to make decisions & guided towards them.She wants to try too hard much of the time, it would have been easy to push her faster before she had matured enough mentally to cope with something not being 100% right.

I suspect Deedee may be physically struggling, hence bucking & I would want to rule ulcers out first after reading this background. Personally, after much ulcer experience with others, I would try a Protexin supplement & potentially Equishure to start. I put Nix on Protexin early as a preventative given her anxiety & Equishure all this year. I have always had her on a high fibre diet. She gets Havens Slobbermash & Pink Mash to keep condition (she does well naturally until in full competition workload anyway). I use Quickfix with her before travel & any time she stops eating hard feed. She knows her life & job so is happy but she remains a sharp reactive horse. She didn't develop pain symptoms at any time. If D's problems persist & she doesn't improve physically after 4 to 6 wks on these supplements then would consider scope / omerprazole etc.

D sounds like a lovely intelligent horse that will greatly reward you all when she rediscovers her confidence & relaxes. I do think such horses are the most fun & talented but we have to help them be their best, more than the less reactive types. Hope the move works well☺

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks SBM. Looking at the time-line she has only been bucking since 13th November but now bucks every time. And never has before. I definitelythink it is a pain reaction as it is so consistent with one particular movement and she appears so willing to please the rest of the time. Ulcers maybe but equally a tweak in the field to her back? I am not experienced with ulcers but she arrived on 11th October - seemed very calm initially but after about 10 days started Box walking but there were no problems under saddle even then until her first buck on 13th November. So can ulcers develop that quickly? Ie within 4 weeks?

 

[ycbm]

Timing is perfect, I reckon. As is the escalation of behaviour. Is she worse to the right, or making faces if you do up her girth on the right?

 

[Leo Walker]

Sadly they can come on literally overnight. 4 weeks is more than long enough for them to develop. She has possibly tweaked herself as well and that may have triggered or worsened the ulcers. Or she might not have them at all. If she was mine I'd be scoping her to find out though at this stage.

 

[ScampiBigMan]

Thanks SBM. Looking at the time-line she has only been bucking since 13th November but now bucks every time. And never has before. I definitelythink it is a pain reaction as it is so consistent with one particular movement and she appears so willing to please the rest of the time. Ulcers maybe but equally a tweak in the field to her back? I am not experienced with ulcers but she arrived on 11th October - seemed very calm initially but after about 10 days started Box walking but there were no problems under saddle even then until her first buck on 13th November. So can ulcers develop that quickly? Ie within 4 weeks?

Yep as noted above by others, yes they can and the escalation fits. Whether she already has them or not (now), I would be taking action assuming that she has due to her behaviour suggesting high levels of anxiety. Therefore, could be vulnerable to excess acid and their development. The symptoms vary widely and they may be in the hind gut, therefore scoping will draw a blank.

I would want to minimise additional stressors, hence why would try supplements before scoping. I would give time for them to take effect (and for her to settle more) before scoping if she does not improve. I use the Protexin and Equishure supplements with both competing horses (having tried many, many, many....ulcer related supplements over the years with previous horses), plus Quickfix as and when required. Plus normal diet, lifestyle etc. all as if they were ulcer prone as a preventative. They do well on this so I keep to it! Been on the scoping, Gastrogard, Omeprazole merry-go-round more than once and do not want a repeat...

If her health was acutely threatened, then I would increase the intensity of the interventions. However, the currrent siutation sounds like one to manage by eliminating potential causes, minimising additional stressors, giving her time and supporting her as she requires with supplements, care and further investigations as the next step if they are needed.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Been on the scoping, Gastrogard, Omeprazole merry-go-round more than once and do not want a repeat...

Arggh I've just booked a scope before I read this! My RI said she'd scope so we aren't just guessing but would know once and for all. Bucking is the only symptom of ulcers. She is not girthy. But bucking could also be her back. So vet said it was a question of which to go for first: xray back or scope? Treat pragmatically for ulcers or for pain? (Ie gastroguard or bute trial). But in his experience it is useful to rule things out. If she scopes clear then that answers that and we look elsewhere.

But now I am doubting the decision..... What do you mean by the merry go round?

 

[ycbm]

But you won't know AE, hind gut ulcers dont show on scoping. That's why I would always go for an acid reduction test in a horse that's been exhibiting stressed behaviour.

Bucking into canter can easily be the only symptom, but she has also been box walking.

I asked above if she is worse to the left than the right, because that's symptomatic of ulcers because of where the stomach and the rest of the gut lies.

.

 

[ScampiBigMan]

Arggh I've just booked a scope before I read this! My RI said she'd scope so we aren't just guessing but would know once and for all. Bucking is the only symptom of ulcers. She is not girthy. But bucking could also be her back. So vet said it was a question of which to go for first: xray back or scope? Treat pragmatically for ulcers or for pain? (Ie gastroguard or bute trial). But in his experience it is useful to rule things out. If she scopes clear then that answers that and we look elsewhere.

But now I am doubting the decision..... What do you mean by the merry go round?

I

As I said in last post, hind gut ulcers won't be picked up on the scope. Additionally, it is a little like X rays in that what is seen on a scope varies in terms of relationship to presented symptoms' severity. So in my experience...often does not provide clear diagnosis & is an additional stressor. Because of this, it can become a merry go round which is high cost & not particularly beneficial to the horse if there is limited understanding of the extent of what is known & unknown.

if you trust your vet, go with it but ask qns as am sure you always do.

Would view ulcers as a potential harmful outcome from anxiety rather than an underlying cause. From the background, anxiety appears to have been /be present so I would start helping her out ASAP regardless. Are there other symptoms of potential back pain when examined?

Do you want a chat about it?

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks SBM. Its a mixed picture. Vet has looked at the video and he reckons back or gut. If you palpate the abdomen to ask her to raise her back she kicks out but that could be either. I do trust my vet but have sent him another email and will talk to him tomorrow. Now wondering about a bute trial as the cheapest place to start.

In teffms of management I am doing everything to help her settle anyway. She has moved to a quieter (pig free!) yard, is on full livery there so her routine is exactly the same each day and she is on ad lib hay (switched her from haylage) and low sugar, low starch, grain free, sharp chaff free feeds, Aloe Vera juice and Slippery Elm. A friend has suggested I buy Quickfix for her so that's the plan too.

 

[ycbm]

My vet tells me that bute trials are frequently ineffective for back issues, AE. If she doesn't respond it doesn't mean her back is OK. My kissing spines horse was unhappy on four a day.

 

[Trouper]

There are so many possibilities but there is an interesting article on Tom Beech's Facebook page (The Osteopathic Vet) about the effects moves and changes of pasture etc can have on mobility issues. Worth a read - or even better a consultation with him. Hope you find some answers soon.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Update for anyone still interested in this saga.... I went ahead with the scope this morning after umming and ahhing about it. And she does have ulcers. She has areas of inflammation (pre ulcers) and then grade 2-3 ulcers - both squamous ones and pyloric ones. Vet thinks they developed recently. So there we are. Glad I moved her! Wish I had done it sooner. She is now on gastrogard for one type and sulcrafate for the other type. Fingers crossed now that we have a diagnosis and treatment plan she will start to move forward. Plan is 2 more weeks total rest then start hacking her out in walk for another 3 weeks then review in 5 weeks at the end of the drug course.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Ah at least you know now, and can treat and look out for them in future!

Moving yards gave Skylla ulcers too (though we didn't even have any pigs!), treated and a few management tweaks she right as rain now. If i have to ever move her again, I'd probably treat her as a precaution before any of the wacky behaviour starts!

 

[milliepops]

Good to have some answers, and well done on following your nose with that one. Hope she is back on form soon and you can all start to relax a bit!

 

[ycbm]

Update for anyone still interested in this saga.... I went ahead with the scope this morning after umming and ahhing about it. And she does have ulcers. She has areas of inflammation (pre ulcers) and then grade 2-3 ulcers - both squamous ones and pyloric ones. Vet thinks they developed recently. So there we are. Glad I moved her! Wish I had done it sooner. She is now on gastrogard for one type and sulcrafate for the other type. Fingers crossed now that we have a diagnosis and treatment plan she will start to move forward. Plan is 2 more weeks total rest then start hacking her out in walk for another 3 weeks then review in 5 weeks at the end of the drug course.

Great news, that's easy to fix hopefully. You might look into putting her on aloe juice at the end. Good results in clinical trial and cheap as you only feed 25ml a day to a 600kg horse, and its £8 a litre on Amazon. I have Muffin on it because he is a worrier who frets about 'his' herd who was also upset by moving homes.

.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Conversation with OH... what do you want for Christmas? Erm, 5 weeks worth of omeprazole please!