British Eventing and British Breeding

[Springs]

British Eventing and British Breeding.

So in the last few days I have been at the British Eventing Young Horse Championships with a 5yo.

British Eventing also held there AGM on Friday late afternoon and had an open question time where I asked the following:

"In today's 5yo class out of the 69 that qualified and the 59 that started only 19% are British Bred, now considering the value of £ now being 20% lower than a year ago and the horses in Europe and Ireland not being cheap any more, what is British Eventing going to support British Breeding?"

Large round of applause.

The answer:

"We will have to get back to you on that"

The meeting then closed.

I did very briefly discuss with two members of the board who seem keen to engage with breeders to link everything together.

I'll let you know what happens.

 

[chipbutty]

i checked the results too, and the highest placed from the futurity was a graf that gained a higher first. The top 10 was littered with irish horses, I couldn't find anything on the winner, im sure that will come out in the H&H feature. Monbeg and Fernill stud both did very well.

Well done to your horse, a valiant effort.

Keep us up to date with any plans.

 

[ihatework]

Any idea of the %'s in the CICYH* & CICYH**?
I'm never completely convinced by the 4/5yo classes but when they hit 6/7 then you start to see what you have got

 

[Springs]

Thanks, she did a good job and has completely exceeded our expatations, SJ course didn't suite her as it was a bit stop start but horses for courses as we know.

Will see how BE respond and keep everyone up to speed.

 

[Springs]

Any idea of the %'s in the CICYH* & CICYH**?
I'm never completely convinced by the 4/5yo classes but when they hit 6/7 then you start to see what you have got

Hi Sorry, I don't at the moment, but will see if I can get the data and run the calculation

 

[Springs]

Hi Sorry, I don't at the moment, but will see if I can get the data and run the calculation

Found the data:

6yo - of the 79 starters 26% were British Bred

7yo - of the 62 staters 38% were British Bred

 

[ihatework]

Found the data:

6yo - of the 79 starters 26% were British Bred

7yo - of the 62 staters 38% were British Bred

Great, thanks. Good to see the % rising

 

[Springs]

Great, thanks. Good to see the % rising

Rising from when, let's see the data.

 

[popsdosh]

Great, thanks. Good to see the % rising

Yes its the usual story a high % of imported horses in 4&5 yo classes as usually bought to sell on early . Most of the British breeders are very reluctant to run promising horses at that age as there is no doubt they last longer ,many top 4* horses never really show up on the radar until 7 or 8 yos. IMO neither BYEH or 4 and 5 yo classes are in a young horses interest if being aimed at 2* and beyond.

 

[Springs]

Yes its the usual story a high % of imported horses in 4&5 yo classes as usually bought to sell on early . Most of the British breeders are very reluctant to run promising horses at that age as there is no doubt they last longer ,many top 4* horses never really show up on the radar until 7 or 8 yos. IMO neither BYEH or 4 and 5 yo classes are in a young horses interest if being aimed at 2* and beyond.

Where is the data to support the information?

 

[popsdosh]

Where is the data to support the information?

Quite simply in the figures you quoted its not exactly a difficult conclusion to reach. I have seen to many 4 and 5 yo s doing the age classes that are screwed up at 8&9 normally with tendon and ligament damage. I suggest a quick look through some 4* horses records would also support that very few if any top performers are campaigned intensely at 4&5

 

[DabDab]

Quite simply in the figures you quoted its not exactly a difficult conclusion to reach. I have seen to many 4 and 5 yo s doing the age classes that are screwed up at 8&9 normally with tendon and ligament damage. I suggest a quick look through some 4* horses records would also support that very few if any top performers are campaigned intensely at 4&5

I agree - I think it's a very rational conclusion. Also, a lot of British bred horses intended for eventing do not come from big breeding programmes, they are often bred by ambitious amateurs and pros who will be running between 2 and 4 horses at a time and breed with the intention that the youngstock will be competition prospects for themselves. There is not much value in people like this taking their young horses to these classes - they do better to be popping them round 90 and 100 classes as and when it suits their stage of development.

Training young horses is never a particularly linear process, but this is even more so in eventing and therefore the young horse classes just don't really serve to tell you a great deal. However, for producers intending to sell on (who are far more likely to have bought-in and therefore often foreign stock), the young horse classes are a great sales tool.

 

[Springs]

Remember the post is about British breeding and being supported by British Eventing. An earlier discussion on the futurity said that joined up cooperation between the replacement futurity, BEF, stud books and sport bodies was not possible.

But for British Breeding to move on there has to be some cooperation, if not what is the answer?

In the similar 5yo class in France recently 91% were French bred.

 

[ihatework]

Remember the post is about British breeding and being supported by British Eventing. An earlier discussion on the futurity said that joined up cooperation between the replacement futurity, BEF, stud books and sport bodies was not possible.

But for British Breeding to move on there has to be some cooperation, if not what is the answer?

In the similar 5yo class in France recently 91% were French bred.

What is it you think BE/BEF should be doing? I agree that they should be supporting British breeding but I'm not clear myself that there is one obvious thing they should be doing. For me this isn't about %'s in 4/5yo classes - those classes are bread and butter sales showcases and most (not all, there are notable exceptions) of riders with horses they genuinely think top class would be producing those horses differently.

For me, I'd want to see some sort of funding/scheme to help enable keep British horses, with British riders and with financial support for the owners/breeders. Too many British owners run their horses with foreign riders because the national federations fund stuff ...

 

[DabDab]

Remember the post is about British breeding and being supported by British Eventing. An earlier discussion on the futurity said that joined up cooperation between the replacement futurity, BEF, stud books and sport bodies was not possible.

But for British Breeding to move on there has to be some cooperation, if not what is the answer?

In the similar 5yo class in France recently 91% were French bred.

But what is the objective? To make British bred horses more desirable in eventing? There's not a lot that BE can do to stop producers and potential owners going to Ireland for youngstock and the British are not likely to be able to replicate the Irish breeding and youngstock sales culture over here.

As above, making sure the best British horses stay British would be the most important thing for me

 

[Springs]

But what is the objective? To make British bred horses more desirable in eventing? There's not a lot that BE can do to stop producers and potential owners going to Ireland for youngstock and the British are not likely to be able to replicate the Irish breeding and youngstock sales culture over here.

As above, making sure the best British horses stay British would be the most important thing for me

For them to answer the question for a start would be useful and I think there's more that can be done to support British horses in eventing, such as priority to British Bred and registered horses in the 4, 5, 6. 7, 8 and 9 yo classes, better prise money for British Bred, better links to futurity to name a few.

 

[DabDab]

For them to answer the question for a start would be useful and I think there's more that can be done to support British horses in eventing, such as priority to British Bred and registered horses in the 4, 5, 6. 7, 8 and 9 yo classes, better prise money for British Bred, better links to futurity to name a few.

But you/they have to know what they are trying to achieve with this 'support', otherwise it is unlikely to be successful. Usually breeding is supported so that the riders at the top level in the country have good access to plenty of potentially top class horses. And as discussed up thread, the 4 and 5yo classes may not be the best predictor of that, so it would not make sense for BE to work on the basis of that statistic.

 

[sywell]

But you/they have to know what they are trying to achieve with this 'support', otherwise it is unlikely to be successful. Usually breeding is supported so that the riders at the top level in the country have good access to plenty of potentially top class horses. And as discussed up thread, the 4 and 5yo classes may not be the best predictor of that, so it would not make sense for BE to work on the basis of that statistic.

The WBFSH YHC Championships in France and you will have seen in H & H and in BE we have filled our quota in the 6 & 7 year old classes. This is a competition between breeders and studbooks not riders and NF. Many countries will only send horses bred in their country. We send 3 British Bred and 7 or 8 Irish, 1 BWP some of the details on the FEI website that were sent in by the BEF did not seem to have a UELN. The Futurity in doubt and the Equine Bridge lost seems you should move to France to get support as a breeder.

 

[ycbm]

I'm not exactly sure why the grass roots level riders that I think provide most of the funding for BE should pay a bigger entry fee so that money can be spent on British breeders.

Can someone explain the benefit?

 

[woodlandswow]

I think at the end of the day the horses we are breeding obviously aren't good enough for the british riders to want to ride and get to top level. BE can't offer prize money to best BB in class if it comes 32nd - that would look worse than not offering it at all.
We need to start breeding a better standard of eventer - as H and H reported last week compared to dressage at futurity there were no way near as many "elite" eventers and non of them three year olds

 

[TheMule]

But we stand some of the best eventing stallions in the world, based on their own merits and that of their offspring. So why are we not breeding such good event horses? Or maybe we are but eventers are riding showjumpers now.
A quick glance through the breeding at the Novice champs at Gatcombe showed a huge majority of horses being bred for SJ.

 

[DabDab]

Since France has been mentioned a couple of times, I thought I'd link this article: http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/20...what-made-france-great-part-one-the-breeders/

 

[sallyf]

I think at the end of the day the horses we are breeding obviously aren't good enough for the british riders to want to ride and get to top level. BE can't offer prize money to best BB in class if it comes 32nd - that would look worse than not offering it at all.
We need to start breeding a better standard of eventer - as H and H reported last week compared to dressage at futurity there were no way near as many "elite" eventers and non of them three year olds

There are many of us that breed specifically for eventing using proven mares and stallions but choose not to take our stock to the Futurity.
I have 4 foals for sale and a lot of interest in them (only advertised a week) but I don't have any interest in taking my youngsters to the futurity where there trots wont look flashy enough against foals that are by dressage stallions and probably wont jump later on.
I have a 4 year old here who has been quietly backed showing a lot of potential but now home for a holiday before going back to be competed as a 5 year old.
I'm not particularly interested in young horses classes either although have bred one that has been selected for the world young horse championships in Le Lion (sadly not going because of a virus).
He was purchased from us as a foal and never did the Futurity and only ever did one BYEH at 5 for experience

 

[TheOldTrout]

Funnily enough I'd been wondering about British-bred event horses the other day, having looked at this and seen that very few of the horses in the top 20 were British-bred:
http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-...tle=Top+Riders,+Horses+and+Goldman+Cup+League (second table down) Even allowing for things like horses being injured or not competed as frequently as others, which would affect the list, there still don't seem to be many British-bred top eventers.

 

[cundlegreen]

How many of you breeders passport your horses with the SHB(GB)? I do all of mine because they are welsh partbreds, and I feel this is the obvious choice of passporting authority. However, considering their criteria is quite high for stallion grading( I have seen at least one proven eventer failed by them), I was astonished to find little or no information about a graded stallions progeny performance. Surely something that should be addressed to encourage us to use british based stallions. Here is the email I sent them yesterday after trawling for information brought this up....

" I have just been searching your website for the progeny results for Catherston Liberator. As an event horse producer, owner and breeder, I'm keen to see event results for stallions. However, both Xavier Faere and trevarth to name but two, are both advanced eventers, with the first horse having come 3rd at badminton last year!
How come that these results are not on your website, considering that I, and a lot of breeders like me, use your passporting service, and would expect you to highlight your graded stallions. I am somewhat shocked, especially as I have a yearling colt, who had most of his results displayed on your website, albeit only for showing in hand.
It may well be that Liberator, and other stallions like him are completely under the radar due to lack of information. Surely if we are trying to promote British bred stallions and their progeny, this is a very important failing?"
Thoughts please?

 

[DabDab]

Good email cundlegreen, will be interesting if they respond. The results sections for the stallions are sorely lacking on their site. I think our stud books in this country are a real weakness

 

[Springs]

I'm not exactly sure why the grass roots level riders that I think provide most of the funding for BE should pay a bigger entry fee so that money can be spent on British breeders.

Can someone explain the benefit?

I don't think anyone has recommended or planned that grassroots riders should fund anything on British Breeding

 

[Springs]

I think at the end of the day the horses we are breeding obviously aren't good enough for the british riders to want to ride and get to top level. BE can't offer prize money to best BB in class if it comes 32nd - that would look worse than not offering it at all.
We need to start breeding a better standard of eventer - as H and H reported last week compared to dressage at futurity there were no way near as many "elite" eventers and non of them three year olds

I think that one of our problems is that it's become custom and practice for the producers of young horses just to automatically go to Ireland or Europe to purchase horses to produce, compete and sell. However with the recession in Europe after the banking crash and Brexit the quantity and quality have dropped. They also now cost 15 to 20% more due to the value of the £ so the UK Bred horse is now more competitive from a cost point. I have had some feedback from horse shoppers going to Ireland and they are not cheap anymore.

 

[Springs]

How many of you breeders passport your horses with the SHB(GB)? I do all of mine because they are welsh partbreds, and I feel this is the obvious choice of passporting authority. However, considering their criteria is quite high for stallion grading( I have seen at least one proven eventer failed by them), I was astonished to find little or no information about a graded stallions progeny performance. Surely something that should be addressed to encourage us to use british based stallions. Here is the email I sent them yesterday after trawling for information brought this up....

" I have just been searching your website for the progeny results for Catherston Liberator. As an event horse producer, owner and breeder, I'm keen to see event results for stallions. However, both Xavier Faere and trevarth to name but two, are both advanced eventers, with the first horse having come 3rd at badminton last year!
How come that these results are not on your website, considering that I, and a lot of breeders like me, use your passporting service, and would expect you to highlight your graded stallions. I am somewhat shocked, especially as I have a yearling colt, who had most of his results displayed on your website, albeit only for showing in hand.
It may well be that Liberator, and other stallions like him are completely under the radar due to lack of information. Surely if we are trying to promote British bred stallions and their progeny, this is a very important failing?"
Thoughts please?

Well said and please let us know the response as the stud books in the U.K. Also need to get smarter.

 

[spacefaer]

It's really hard to find out anything about a horse's breeding in the UK

If I want to know an Irish horse's pedigree, I look on the IHR website (formerly CapellOir). If I want to know its competition results, I look on the relevant discipline's website. If I want to know the results of a particular stallion's grading, I look it up. Ditto progeny or siblings.

And all this information is available for free.

If you want to know anything about a UK horse - there's virtually nothing.

That's one of the reasons why people go abroad, whether to Ireland or Europe - they have a much better idea of what they are buying.

I buy Irish bred horses - I have only bought one English bred horse in the last 8 years - because I know what I'm buying, in terms of bloodlines, performance and temperament.

The UK breeders have a massive problem in trying to compete with that.