British Eventing and British Breeding

NFs don't have to send horses bred in their country to any of the WBFSH discipline championships. The prize money goes to the individual riders/ owners, not the stud books.
There were plenty of other riders at Le Lion not mounted on horses bred in their own country
 
TheMule said:
NFs don't have to send horses bred in their country to any of the WBFSH discipline championships. The prize money goes to the individual riders/ owners, not the stud books.
There were plenty of other riders at Le Lion not mounted on horses bred in their own country
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Exactly the OP seems to not understand the purpose of the competition it is to find the best in any age group nothing to do with studbook rivalry. The little crusade will soon flounder on where the true power lies in BE, they have no interest in British bred horses they just want the best horses wherever they come from. Sad to say many British bred horses do actually have Irish passports as it adds to their value so it is not always black and white
 
Springs said:
Remember we are just talking about the 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 age classes. Nothing else and from the feed back I have had form others outside of HH most agree that British Bred should have priority in these classes.
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You'd like separate age classes for British horses then?
 
The problem here is we are still behind the Continentals and the Irish when it comes to breeding. There is no data base either, unlike the Irish Sport Horse data base. Here you can look up the dam line and see the progeny and get their competition records.
 
popsdosh said:
Exactly the OP seems to not understand the purpose of the competition it is to find the best in any age group nothing to do with studbook rivalry. The little crusade will soon flounder on where the true power lies in BE, they have no interest in British bred horses they just want the best horses wherever they come from. Sad to say many British bred horses do actually have Irish passports as it adds to their value so it is not always black and white
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Your actually 100% wrong in your assumptions!

BE are very interested in supporting British Breeding and British Bred horses in Eventing and I am in contact with two of the main board members on the subject and have had an over view on what they are doing, which is a monumental task with the attitudes of some within British Breeding who always see the problem but don't come back with ideas or solutions.

If you take time to research the WBFSH young horse classes you will see its the stud books that take the honours with the ISH being first and SHBGB in seventh, the one and only British stud book. So the winner of Mondial Le Lion D'Angers 2017 is the ISH stud book.
 
Kathy657 said:
The problem here is we are still behind the Continentals and the Irish when it comes to breeding. There is no data base either, unlike the Irish Sport Horse data base. Here you can look up the dam line and see the progeny and get their competition records.
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Yes and this is one area where we could lobby the BEF (once the investigation has finished) to make this a standard within the industry.

I see the AES have a searchable data base, as does the futurity and BE, it would just be nice for them to be linked together to make access to the data easier.
 
Springs said:
Your actually 100% wrong in your assumptions!

BE are very interested in supporting British Breeding and British Bred horses in Eventing and I am in contact with two of the main board members on the subject and have had an over view on what they are doing, which is a monumental task with the attitudes of some within British Breeding who always see the problem but don't come back with ideas or solutions.

If you take time to research the WBFSH young horse classes you will see its the stud books that take the honours with the ISH being first and SHBGB in seventh, the one and only British stud book. So the winner of Mondial Le Lion D'Angers 2017 is the ISH stud book.
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Good luck is all I can say! over the years many have tried they pay lip service but never come through. There is one way only to boost British breeding in eventing and that is to compete on level terms with the the others so as to create a demand for the horses. When you start asking for favours you are already admitting failure. You create the database first then the rest will follow its that simple without it everything else is futile. You still havent answered what do you suggest that will change how 6,7,8,and9 yo are run that will make a difference? There is nothing stopping any horse competing on merit nor should there be
 
Springs said:
Anyone able to explain why we have sent British riders on foreign bred or registered horses to the WBFSH championships for young horses at LeLion d’Angers?

Isn’t it the stud books that take the credit and not the country?

Just wondering.
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If you look at the results they are by studbook not rider class ordee so sending Irish Sports horses benifits the Irish not GB
 
TheMule said:
NFs don't have to send horses bred in their country to any of the WBFSH discipline championships. The prize money goes to the individual riders/ owners, not the stud books.
There were plenty of other riders at Le Lion not mounted on horses bred in their own country
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The studbook of origin gets the credit not the rider or owner.
 
sywell said:
The studbook of origin gets the credit not the rider or owner.
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The sad conclusion is that if we insisted on only sending British bred 6&7 yos to Le Lion there would be very few and sometimes none that would go as they would not be qualified to run. Sorry but in no way can you improve British bred horses by forcing riders to ride them and certainly whats the point in sending un competitive youngsters, you can only do it by producing what the market wants and not what you think they want. The futurity and equine bridge fell down as it ended up not taking some of the most talented horses that are out there. Maybe now there has been a breath of fresh air in BE national selection it may become a bit more equal further down the tree. In the UK politics play to big a part in what gets looked at I have seen to much over the years.
 
Springs said:
Remember the post is about British breeding and being supported by British Eventing. An earlier discussion on the futurity said that joined up cooperation between the replacement futurity, BEF, stud books and sport bodies was not possible.

But for British Breeding to move on there has to be some cooperation, if not what is the answer?

In the similar 5yo class in France recently 91% were French bred.
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The problem is endemic in the structure of the equine industry and in my opinion goes back to the failure of the BHS not to have vision to have a structure that allowed the disciplines to operate with a freedom of movement but remain part of a cohesive central structure in some ways similar to the German FN. When the disciplines split I said to Col Eastwood it was wrong but he said if they are determined to go that's it. I can see the point from BD at that time because the BHS controlled their investment and charged £5 to write a cheques for them. We see from this weeks
H &H the chaos in the administrations of the organising bodies. The Equine Industry still does not have a single agreed line with Government and DEFRA must also take the blame look at the situation horse passport legislation changed on 1/1/2016 and we approach 1/1/2018 and EU262 is still not enforceable in UK law,it's a joke the EU will look on with amusement as a senior SANCO official (a phd vet) said to me with some anger DEFRA promise everything and do nothing and that was in 2008
 
I thought it would be useful to share the initial response from the senior BE leadership on the little challenge given to them:

It was good to meet you at the AGM. For my part we are working closely with the BEF on Equine Development. As you will know this has been run in the past by XXXXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXX. I had a meeting recently with Dressage and Showjumping together with the BEF to look at how we can support this important area more closely going forward. As you maybe aware there is a lot of change going on in the BEF at the moment with regards to the structure and strategy and it is clear that there should be much more involvement by the member bodies going forward in terms of policy on a wide number of areas – Equine Development being one and an important one.

You should be aware also that we have recently agreed to support the Equine Bridge with free horse registrations for all horses in the eventing section.

I know that this has not answered your direct question, however it is clear to us that we do need to do more in the future.
 
Lots of 'Going forward' and lots of good intent, but a rather poorly written response.

UK Equine ownership, registration, organisation and decision making is to fragmented with too many opposing agendas. If Ken Rehill was right about nothing else, on this point he is entirely correct.

Alec.
 
Springs said:
I thought it would be useful to share the initial response from the senior BE leadership on the little challenge given to them:

It was good to meet you at the AGM. For my part we are working closely with the BEF on Equine Development. As you will know this has been run in the past by XXXXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXX. I had a meeting recently with Dressage and Showjumping together with the BEF to look at how we can support this important area more closely going forward. As you maybe aware there is a lot of change going on in the BEF at the moment with regards to the structure and strategy and it is clear that there should be much more involvement by the member bodies going forward in terms of policy on a wide number of areas – Equine Development being one and an important one.

You should be aware also that we have recently agreed to support the Equine Bridge with free horse registrations for all horses in the eventing section.

I know that this has not answered your direct question, however it is clear to us that we do need to do more in the future.
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Sounds like the spoof W1A. Well that's all good then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNc0oOavmnI&list=RD5VkHMB9S_wU&index=25
 
Springs said:
You should be aware also that we have recently agreed to support the Equine Bridge with free horse registrations for all horses in the eventing section.
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So ordinary BE members are paying the registration fees for the owners of elite horses. I'm sure they'll all be very happy about that. If you can afford a horse of that quality you can afford the flipping registration fee!
 
ycbm said:
So ordinary BE members are paying the registration fees for the owners of elite horses. I'm sure they'll all be very happy about that. If you can afford a horse of that quality you can afford the flipping registration fee!
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I think it's a great idea. Trust me, if you've managed to breed a good one it will have cost you countless thousands of pounds to get it to 4 years of age so the £100 saving is probably quite welcome.
 
honetpot said:
I think rather than give them £100 off automatic free entry to a high profile best of British breeding class with a good prize like the Cuddy
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Higher firsts/ elites get a discounted entry to the Osberton in-hand classes at the young horse international I believe, but that's different to the pathway which needs to have a clear outcome for 4yr olds
 
TheMule said:
I think it's a great idea. Trust me, if you've managed to breed a good one it will have cost you countless thousands of pounds to get it to 4 years of age so the £100 saving is probably quite welcome.
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But why should a BE member doing BE80 pay more to compete to make up for the registration fee you don't have to pay? And why on earth should they pay the entry fee of the people who have bought a well bred horse and paid a shedload more for it than they can afford for their own competition horse?
 
ycbm said:
But why should a BE member doing BE80 pay more to compete to make up for the registration fee you don't have to pay? And why on earth should they pay the entry fee of the people who have bought a well bred horse and paid a shedload more for it than they can afford for their own competition horse?
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The pathway is/was finded by lottery money as part of the World Class programme I believe. Anyway, it is a very small number of horses in reality and the real cost of a horse membership to BE is tiny. The pathway is to support breeders first and foremost. Yes, I'm sure some horses would be sold with a 'qualification' but again, I think the numbers would be tiny.
 
ycbm said:
But why should a BE member doing BE80 pay more to compete to make up for the registration fee you don't have to pay? And why on earth should they pay the entry fee of the people who have bought a well bred horse and paid a shedload more for it than they can afford for their own competition horse?
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Because ultimately it’s a pyramid system - we need to fund and support the elite horses for future teams. The more successful and higher profile the sport, the more gets invested back in at the lower levels.
 
ihatework said:
Because ultimately it’s a pyramid system - we need to fund and support the elite horses for future teams. The more successful and higher profile the sport, the more gets invested back in at the lower levels.
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The pyramid is the other way up. BE is funded predominantly by the money paid in by low level riders.
 
ihatework said:
For sure. But do you really think there would be a BE if all that was in offer was 90-110cm stuff?!
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Yes. There are many venues that only run at that height. There is massive demand for competition at that height. Most competitors never compete higher than 110. I see no reason, since that height is what pays the bills anyway, why that would stop. Why do you think it would?

I've looked up the lottery funding and as far as I can see it goes, many, many millions of it, exclusively to elite riders and none to grass roots level, which all pays its own way.
 
I can not think why a BE member would want to support British breeding, looking at results there is no clear benefit to the rider of buying British. Its a lovely ideal but in reality everyone has a pot of money and they are going to buy the best they can afford from where ever it comes.
The government does not want to support it, there are no tax advantages for the breeder, in fact its just a money pit. At least if there was a well supported production series with a couple of big venues and large cash prize you would get a bit of kudos and a nice day out.
We already have SHGB, which is fairly open and has lots of opportunities, why start something else which is likely to have a very small base to the pyramid and even tinier elite end user, if they chose not to buy abroad.
If you compare it to supermarkets, they are trying to M&S and Waitrose, selling product that has no track record when most buy from Aldi and Lidl, because there is more choice and its cheaper.
 
ycbm said:
Yes. There are many venues that only run at that height. There is massive demand for competition at that height. Most competitors never compete higher than 110. I see no reason, since that height is what pays the bills anyway, why that would stop. Why do you think it would?

I've looked up the lottery funding and as far as I can see it goes, many, many millions of it, exclusively to elite riders and none to grass roots level, which all pays its own way.
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Well I’m afraid I disagree. I think you are very blinkered in your views.
But then I suppose my opinion is no surprise :D
 
ihatework said:
Well I’m afraid I disagree. I think you are very blinkered in your views.
But then I suppose my opinion is no surprise :D
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I would be quite happy to hear you explain why you think BE 80/90/100/110 could not survive without intermediate, advanced and international level competition. I have explained why I think they can, but you have not yet presented any reasons why they can't. I am open to persuasion if you have any coherent argument in support of your 'because that's what I believe' stance.

I don't see how you can accuse me of being blinkered to your argument when you haven't actually presented one :)
 
ycbm said:
I would be quite happy to hear you explain why you think BE 80/90/100/110 could not survive without intermediate, advanced and international level competition. I have explained why I think they can, but you have not yet presented any reasons why they can't. I am open to persuasion if you have any coherent argument in support of your 'because that's what I believe' stance.

I don't see how you can accuse me of being blinkered to your argument when you haven't actually presented one :)
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Apologies I had more important things to do than get into an argument with you.

I think there is a massive market for 80-110 but it would be under a different umberella if there were no higher levels on offer.

British eventing is the organising body for top flight sport. For top flight sport there needs to be that pyramid in place to train the horses up through. The ratio of pro:am obviously changes the higher you climb BUT those pro horses all have to come through the lower levels. The whole structure is there for a reason. Grassrootes stuff is critical to the base of the pyramid, but if there was no decent upper level competition there would be no pro’s bringing horses through the lower levels. To quote a retired event rider ‘they have no desire to scrub around pre nervous’.
There would be no national teams, no sponsorship reason, no access to prestigious venues. There would be no reason for BE to exist.

But that is diverting from the point of the OP, which was about supporting British breeding. Now that is a tangled web and would require some serious investment and joined up thinking that I can’t see happening. It’s not really BEs responsibility, but equally some small supportive financial input wouldn’t be wrong. No one is forcing anyone to take out BE membership if they don’t like how their money is being spent.
 
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