British Rider Suspended

LEC

LEC

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This has been across FB and James Smith has at least been suspended.

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It does kind of annoy me on this forum that we will pick apart and tear holes into dressage riders but James Smith and his actual welfare issue go uncommented on. If James is prepared to do this at a show…. What do we think goes on at home?
 
LEC

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scats said:
I heard late yesterday that he had been suspended but couldn’t find why, so thank you for posting this.

I dont think this particular welfare issue has gone uncommented on for any reason other than it has not been well reported, so people might not have known.
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We will eat ourselves apart as so many nuances of welfare. I think we should be hitting the big things first and then go after the other stuff. He deserves a proper punishment and this is where we should be concentrating first. Getting the organisations to respect welfare properly and do something about it. A unilateral ban BSJA and FEI for 2 years would be a good start. I bet he gets a poxy fine and 3 months at most. Then we should be starting to work on the stuff where it’s more nuanced like tail swishing, serious bitting etc.
 
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LEC said:
We will eat ourselves apart as so many nuances of welfare. I think we should be hitting the big things first and then go after the other stuff. He deserves a proper punishment and this is where we should be concentrating first. Getting the organisations to respect welfare properly and do something about it. A unilateral ban BSJA and FEI for 2 years would be a good start. Then we should be starting to work on the stuff where it’s more nuanced like tail swishing, serious bitting etc.
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Agreed. I thought James was one of the ‘good guys’ so I am really shocked at this.
 
LEC

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conniegirl said:
Post is also in french for me.
Im not familiar with the bamboo method. Is that rapping?

I’d not heard about it until now but am quite happy to tear anyone apart if they are rapping a horse
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It’s called poling. You ‘touch’ the horse usually on the fetlocks or on the leg which is perhaps slightly slower than the other. It needs great timing to do it. Which sounds kind of wrong but you will get the gist of what I mean. It’s more subtle than rapping.
 
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It's also In French for me and translation isn't working. From the pictures it looks like rapping, yes it's gone on forever and sadly I found out that it's still commonplace with some people. I really hope he gets an appropriate ban but sadly, like rolkur, I doubt things will change. I am becoming very disillusioned and conflicted about horses and sport. Yet I know some people who are doing it ethically and successfully so that gives me hope.
 
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LEC said:
It’s called poling. You ‘touch’ the horse usually on the fetlocks or on the leg which is perhaps slightly slower than the other. It needs great timing to do it. Which sounds kind of wrong but you will get the gist of what I mean. It’s more subtle than rapping.
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Isn't there a German rider who got away with this recently as he argued he wasn't rapping but poling which is allowed under German rules?
 
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I think the german rider was Ludger but I may be wrong. If it was him then he's another linked to Helgstrand in Denmark.
 
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misst said:
Another whose pleasure in the sports is being eroded. I know it has always gone on but I think money and fame have a lot to do with with the apparent increase. Or maybe it was always this bad but there was no SM?
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Rapping was widespread at least 40 years ago, I knew which yards did it, it wasn't particularly hidden.
 
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It isnt just rapping though it's the problems in dressage judging, the training/keeping of competition horses in general and the treatment of staff which, while it has always been "a bit sexist and a bit unregulated" as a friend said recently, has consistently failed to keep up with the law and modern employment practices. I just feel that by supporting these sports I am saying it is ok to treat your staff badly, it is ok to mistreat your horses. And it is not ok.
 
Hormonal Filly

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Not good.

A friend bought a horse a year ago, that bucks/lifts its hind end massively over fences like it’s been poled. Is it something they ever stop doing?
 
Ambers Echo

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I don't think any particualr discipline gets a pass - or particularly harsh criticism - on HHO. Dressage is topical due to the recent judging controversises, hence the widespread posting. But yes this is grim.

At Southview a group of riders were coming to the upright over and over again, going up 2 each time till the fence was huge (for a BN class) and horses hit it. At which point they said good. The aim clearly was to keep going till the horse knocked a pole. Also 1 refused and was leathered. That also seemed to be deliberate- create a refusal so an opportunity to punish horse. It is a mindset totally alien to me - my focus is on helping the horse feel confident, so overfacing a horse just seems bizarre to me. But it clearly gets results or people would not do it.

People really are just a bit rubbish. And the only solutuion is a welfare strategy and strict enforcement. So I think new rules on whip use should be brought in. I don;t see why whipping in the wam up is tolerated qwhen it would not be allowed in the ring. Plus enforce height rules in warm ups. I did not even get to jump a fence because the warm up was hijacked by people jumping 120 in a 90 class!

I disagree with the idea that we should focus on big abuses and then gradually get to the smaller ones. The evidence in policing is that ignoring low level crime to focus limited resources on high level crime makes some offences completely routine, whereas tacking lower level crime has a positive effect on all crime, including higher level crime. A zero tolerance approach of ALL forms of animal abuse (misuse of whip, jabbing animal in mouth, overfacing, over-bitting, etc from pony club upwards, from unaff clear rounds to olympc ganes, would create a different mindset.

Kids need to grow up believing animals deserve kindness and respect, and only ever seeing that around them, because venues demand it. It then become normal.
 
LEC

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Ambers Echo said:
I don't think any particualr discipline gets a pass - or particularly harsh criticism - on HHO. Dressage is topical due to the recent judging controversises, hence the widespread posting. But yes this is grim.

At Southview a group of riders were coming to the upright over and over again, going up 2 each time till the fence was huge (for a BN class) and horses hit it. At which point they said good. The aim clearly was to keep going till the horse knocked a pole. Also 1 refused and was leathered. That also seemed to be deliberate- create a refusal so an opportunity to punish horse. It is a mindset totally alien to me - my focus is on helping the horse feel confident, so overfacing a horse just seems bizarre to me. But it clearly gets results or people would not do it.

People really are just a bit rubbish. And the only solutuion is a welfare strategy and strict enforcement. So I think new rules on whip use should be brought in. I don;t see why whipping in the wam up is tolerated qwhen it would not be allowed in the ring. Plus enforce height rules in warm ups. I did not even get to jump a fence because the warm up was hijacked by people jumping 120 in a 90 class!

I disagree with the idea that we should focus on big abuses and then gradually get to the smaller ones. The evidence in policing is that ignoring low level crime to focus limited resources on high level crime makes some offences completely routine, whereas tacking lower level crime has a positive effect on all crime, including higher level crime. A zero tolerance approach of ALL forms of animal abuse (misuse of whip, jabbing animal in mouth, overfacing, over-bitting, etc from pony club upwards, from unaff clear rounds to olympc ganes, would create a different mindset.

Kids need to grow up believing animals deserve kindness and respect, and only ever seeing that around them, because venues demand it. It then become normal.
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We had someone fall off at KSEC the other day at BS. They got back on the horse and leathered it just outside the collecting ring in front of the steward who I know. I need to find out the consequences. Whether they reported it to BS. This is another issue in horse sport… chains of responsibility as BS and BD outsource a lot of there’s effectively with stewards who will not all be singing from the same hymn sheet with how they view things.

I do think the jockey club has it right. It’s dealt with very quickly on the whole and they have very clear defined standards and rules. But also a lot easier as one jurisdiction and experienced stewards.
 
Ambers Echo

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LEC said:
We had someone fall off at KSEC the other day at BS. They got back on the horse and leathered it just outside the collecting ring in front of the steward who I know. I need to find out the consequences. Whether they reported it to BS. This is another issue in horse sport… chains of responsibility as BS and BD outsource a lot of there’s effectively with stewards who will not all be singing from the same hymn sheet with how they view things.

I do think the jockey club has it right. It’s dealt with very quickly on the whole and they have very clear defined standards and rules. But also a lot easier as one jurisdiction and experienced stewards.
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Yes I think when ring stewards are just volunteers they are not going to challenge anyone. There were only meant to be 8 people in the warm up at Southview, which is tiny. But that was not enforced at all. The ring steward looked to me like a teenaged girl. She paid no attention really to anything going on and I don't blame her. She just called the names out of people as they were due in.
 
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I thought that there were rules about the height of the practice fence in the past? Probably an awful long time ago...
 
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