British Rider Suspended

[Horsegirl25]

It will be very interesting to see the outcome of this. He is local ish to me so it is very interesting hearing more amateur riders views on this compared to some 'professional' riders views. I have got the impression when you talk to some not all, higher level riders don't see the problem with what he has done compared to the amateur riders.
I hope the BS take appropriate action, I think it will be a wake up call if they do to other 'pros' as this will literally be career ending for him.
My view of this is, if your going to do this at a show what on earth are they like at home...

 

[ponynutz]

I'm in a predicament at the minute because of concerning things I've seen at a riding school and whether to put in a complaint. It would almost certainly not end very well for me or friends of mine but I suppose it's an interesting point to raise that these rules need to be enforced so people don't feel afraid to speak up on behalf of a horse (this also echoes the point made about not prosecuting a groom or stablehand before a thorough investigation has been made).

 

[reynold]

I hope that (non-malicious) speaking up by members of the public is taken more seriously by stewards.

I used to regularly go to the local pony club shows with one or two of my ponies. I always went with the kids (none of them mine) and watched/helped them in the warm up.

There was a (very) overweight child on a 14hh ish lightweight pony - lovely jumper and yet the child had both spurs on and a whip and was just going round and round and round repeatedly over the practice fence for over 20 mins or so and using the whip 'vigorously' for each jump.

I did say something but child ignored me and also did the same before the next class. After I had attended to my ponies I went and found the secretary who was also the DC that day and complained. Both child and pony were distinctive and so easily identified.

Nothing was done that day or at the following show when the same occurred again with the same child. I found out later that the mother of the child was 'on the committee' and so was in the 'clique' which I was not.

The only way this is going to change long term is for children - whether at pony club, riding school or in the junior sections of the affiliated disciplines - to have education drummed into them and also to be seriously stewarded at shows, including being disqualified from competing.

However I wish all stewards that genuinely try to stop abuse well in dealing with the pushy parents of said children who are often at the root of their child's behaviour.

 

[teapot]

I'm in a predicament at the minute because of concerning things I've seen at a riding school and whether to put in a complaint. It would almost certainly not end very well for me or friends of mine but I suppose it's an interesting point to raise that these rules need to be enforced so people don't feel afraid to speak up on behalf of a horse (this also echoes the point made about not prosecuting a groom or stablehand before a thorough investigation has been made).

Depending on status of the riding school - ie is it approved, if so who with - you could if you wanted to complain directly to the approval body if easier

 

[ponynutz]

Depending on status of the riding school - ie is it approved, if so who with - you could if you wanted to complain directly to the approval body if easier

Sadly whoever I complain to (which I believe would be local council/BHS so something would be more likely to be done) there would most likely be a witch hunt which would place me and friends in a difficult position. It's a terrible dilemma and I'm still deciding how much I think I should to listen to my moral compass.

Thank you though!

 

[Squeak]

If humans can’t ride, train and compete horses at top level without abusing them, then horse sport at the top level shouldn’t exist. And if that filters down to the grassroots and below, then so be it.

I do wonder if we're in danger of having evolved horse sport so that at the top levels abuse is required to be successful?

Potentially dressage is the most obvious/ furthest gone which is why there's so much noise about it. We've managed to create a sport which rewards horses that have been bred to have over exaggerated and unnatural movement at the sacrifice of soundness and health. Then if they do make it to compete, unhappy/ tense horses who go in an bad (overbent etc) way are what are rewarded as long as their legs are flinging around everywhere.

It wouldn't surprise me if show jumping with ever increasing technical courses and light poles means that abusive/ extreme methods are needed to succeed. Racing also has issues where horses are raced too young and long term soundness isn't needed as long as they've won a couple of big races in one season they can make a fortune at stud.

 

[Velcrobum]

It has been picked up by DM and Sky news

Top Scottish showjumper is suspended due to horse welfare fears

James Smith, 31, has been barred from national and international competitions while he is investigated for allegedly using an outlawed training method at a European event.

www.dailymail.co.uk

ETA He has taken his FB Page down having googled him!

 

[Caol Ila]

Ah, rapping. Never goes out of fashion. There was a whole sh1tstorm about George Morris (what a guy) using it in the 1990s. Obviously USEF shrugged it off, because George is George. I think some smaller name trainers were done for it, though.

Glad BSJA seems to be taking it seriously.

 

[EventingMum]

I'm in a predicament at the minute because of concerning things I've seen at a riding school and whether to put in a complaint. It would almost certainly not end very well for me or friends of mine but I suppose it's an interesting point to raise that these rules need to be enforced so people don't feel afraid to speak up on behalf of a horse (this also echoes the point made about not prosecuting a groom or stablehand before a thorough investigation has been made).

I think you should be able to make an anonymous complaint or at least say you want your anonymity withheld from the riding school.

 

[Backtoblack]

The way people behave is asking for all horse sport to be banned, appalling abuse happens too often people need banning for life if caught.

 

[ponynutz]

I think you should be able to make an anonymous complaint or at least say you want your anonymity withheld from the riding school.

Yes, this is what I'm leaning towards doing although I sadly still think there will be a witch-hunt and there are people who know I'm thinking of complaining! Thank you anyway

Didn't mean to derail the thread by the way; only meant to make the point that there is such an issue in the sport of bullying and controlling behaviour that can make it very difficult for behaviour to be called out. It's already been mentioned a few times in this thread that stewards were young, inexperienced, or otherwise intimidated and therefore did not enforce rules

 

[Ambers Echo]

Another reason to routinely video warm ups. And allow people to report concerns anonymously which would trigger a review and action as needed. Would not solve the issues of poor behaviour at riding schools but would make a difference in comps.

 

[Snowfilly]

I went to a BS show last year and saw a lady in the BN wearing incorrect dress (wrong colour breeches) and a local pro with six horses at the show lather the hell out of one in the Foxhunter. Guess which one got a call over the tannoy to go to the judges after their round?

I stewarded at a lot of shows last summer and last winter, mainly through boredom now I haven’t got a riding horse, and I think only one show did a briefing that included where / how to report abuse in the collecting ring or round the ground. These were a mixture of RC open shows, local town shows with affiliated showing and a couple of old fashioned hunt shows on grass so a wide mix.

Animal safeguarding just isn’t considered, at any level.

 

[reynold]

I think there is a factor inputting to the increasing abuse at shows/in public over the years directly related to the decrease in broadcasting of horse sport on TV, much reduced from its heyday when SJ was on the TV often, Gatcombe was shown on the BBC along with Badminton/Burley, etc.

Decades ago the 'man in the street' would often be able to name several SJ riders and probably some eventers. (I believe that is still the case in Ireland but definitely not in the UK). Now, apart from racing, equestrian sport doesn't really register with the public and as such has become somewhat insular and participants have a habit of speaking in an echo chamber with other like minded people.

It is noticeable that racing has (relatively) swiftly modified its rules and fences in response to public criticism. The same isn't/hasn't happened with other horse sports that aren't on TV, although the idea of public scrutiny and social license is increasingly being taken into account.

I think too many of the competitors at all levels are still labouring under the illusion that, whatever they do, no-one will ever find out....and if they do then it won't be made public enough, due to lack of interest in horse sport, for it to matter.

I do think that the only recent 'public' awareness of horse sport (outside of racing) in general has been the 'dancing horses' at the London Olympics.

It is a good thing for the horses that the public are being made aware of what has been going on behind the scenes, including Helgstrand. However, for us to continue to enjoy our horse sports, we need the authorities to react firmly, swiftly and above all publicly to sanction those riders, at whatever level, who are abusing their horses. Otherwise the end of all horse sports is on a visible horizon.

 

[equinerebel]

I do think that the only recent 'public' awareness of horse sport (outside of racing) in general has been the 'dancing horses' at the London Olympics.

That and the MP at Tokyo, which swiftly removed the equestrian element from the sport in response to public backlash.

 

[Smitty]

I witnessed an extremely well known /famous/household name doing extremely unpleasant things to a string of young horses at a BSJA show 40 or so years ago. I don't remember the details, although I think rapping was involved. It was certainly quite subtle abuse and I don't recollect a huge amount of whipping.

Someone else, who was certainly no fluffy bunny, mentioned an episode reported in the daily papers about this person which they had discounted as so what, storm in a teacup, but having witnessed the 'warm up', was disgusted.

Apparently there were so many complaints to the show organisers that the person in question was asked not to return ever again!!

A couple of years ago I went to some affiliated horse trials, which I do a lot, and a 4* rider gave a pre novice horse 3 sharp whacks at a fence in woods where just me and I suppose some fence judges saw. I don't remember what the horse had done or who the rider was, although not British, but I felt at the time it was excessive.

I wonder if racing is the kindest horse sport, at least it's more or less transparent.

 

[humblepie]

I witnessed an extremely well known /famous/household name doing extremely unpleasant things to a string of young horses at a BSJA show 40 or so years ago. I don't remember the details, although I think rapping was involved. It was certainly quite subtle abuse and I don't recollect a huge amount of whipping.

Someone else, who was certainly no fluffy bunny, mentioned an episode reported in the daily papers about this person which they had discounted as so what, storm in a teacup, but having witnessed the 'warm up', was disgusted.

Apparently there were so many complaints to the show organisers that the person in question was asked not to return ever again!!

A couple of years ago I went to some affiliated horse trials, which I do a lot, and a 4* rider gave a pre novice horse 3 sharp whacks at a fence in woods where just me and I suppose some fence judges saw. I don't remember what the horse had done or who the rider was, although not British, but I felt at the time it was excessive.

I wonder if racing is the kindest horse sport, at least it's more or less transparent.

There is indeed a lot of transparency and scrutiny in racing with yard inspections, unannounced yard visits, multiple welfare officers, CCTV etc at racecourses. I’m not aware that any other association does out of competition yard checks or drug testing of horses.

 

[I'm Dun]

I think there is a factor inputting to the increasing abuse at shows/in public over the years directly related to the decrease in broadcasting of horse sport on TV, much reduced from its heyday when SJ was on the TV often, Gatcombe was shown on the BBC along with Badminton/Burley, etc.

Decades ago the 'man in the street' would often be able to name several SJ riders and probably some eventers. (I believe that is still the case in Ireland but definitely not in the UK). Now, apart from racing, equestrian sport doesn't really register with the public and as such has become somewhat insular and participants have a habit of speaking in an echo chamber with other like minded people.

It is noticeable that racing has (relatively) swiftly modified its rules and fences in response to public criticism. The same isn't/hasn't happened with other horse sports that aren't on TV, although the idea of public scrutiny and social license is increasingly being taken into account.

I think too many of the competitors at all levels are still labouring under the illusion that, whatever they do, no-one will ever find out....and if they do then it won't be made public enough, due to lack of interest in horse sport, for it to matter.

I do think that the only recent 'public' awareness of horse sport (outside of racing) in general has been the 'dancing horses' at the London Olympics.

It is a good thing for the horses that the public are being made aware of what has been going on behind the scenes, including Helgstrand. However, for us to continue to enjoy our horse sports, we need the authorities to react firmly, swiftly and above all publicly to sanction those riders, at whatever level, who are abusing their horses. Otherwise the end of all horse sports is on a visible horizon.

The Helgstrand program producers did everyone a massive disservice by not releasing it in different languages. Anyone outside of horses knows nothing about it, and a huge section of those in horses knows nothing about. Those in horses who do know about it expressed horror and then it all died down and its business as usual.

Change isn't going to come from within without enormous pressure being applied

 

[Ceifer]

I think the whole equestrian high level sports ethos has gone down the toilet.

I would agree that it’s probably something that has grown over the last 40 years.

I’m also pretty sure that money is a massive driver of the abuse.

Horses have never been a ‘cheap sport’ but it’s mega money at the top. Horses changing money for tens to hundreds of thousands. Helgestrand is a money churning factory for hyper mobile, hot but shut down dressage horses for rich people with more money than sense.

Pro riders are under constant pressure from owners - bad results? We’ll take the horse that we’re paying. Sh*t ton of money for to someone else. It definitely does not excuse or warrant any abuse but it’s a reason why it’s happening.

It also affects the way horses are kept. Most owners of these hugely expensive horses aren’t going to permit turnout or socialisation when injury could flush money down the toilet.
Sure they’ll probably get broken by the lack of stimulation and field exercise but realistically most of these horses go on into their teens and are injected to keep them going.

 

[ycbm]

There is indeed a lot of transparency and scrutiny in racing with yard inspections, unannounced yard visits, multiple welfare officers, CCTV etc at racecourses. I’m not aware that any other association does out of competition yard checks or drug testing of horses.

But let's not fool ourselves this is for horse welfare, it's to prevent betting fraud.

They actively support riding horses before their second birthday, racing them at two, and the hugely elevated death levels in NH racing compared with any other equestrian sport.
.

 

[humblepie]

But let's not fool ourselves this is for horse welfare, it's to prevent betting fraud.

They actively support riding horses before their second birthday, racing them at two, and the hugely elevated death levels in NH racing compared with any other equestrian sport.


.

It is integrity and welfare and continual research into veterinary developments etc which benefit wider horse welfare.

 

[ycbm]

It is integrity and welfare and continual research into veterinary developments etc which benefit wider horse welfare.

There are benefits and some hugely negative results of increasing expensive diagnotics and treatments but this probably isn't the right thread to discuss it.
.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

There's a commentor on their FB post about it that sounds very much like shouty vet

Apparently this "relentless" pursuit of professional riders needs to stop, and is ranting on about how this group is having to find themselves accountable to those who's riding ability is "embarrassing"


Perhaps we wouldn't be calling them out if they weren't using unsavoury training methods?? Stop protecting them and putting them on pedestals just because apparently us mere mortals aren't good enough to comment...

 

[jofwigby]

The Helgstrand program producers did everyone a massive disservice by not releasing it in different languages. Anyone outside of horses knows nothing about it, and a huge section of those in horses knows nothing about. Those in horses who do know about it expressed horror and then it all died down and its business as usual.

Change isn't going to come from within without enormous pressure being applied

This ^

 

[MagicMelon]

Honestly this doesnt surprise me at all. I came upon James Smith competing a few times and I disliked him the second I saw him! He was extremely arrogant and "owned" the warm up, rode AT you etc. You know the type.

People like this need banned for life from competition, not just some pathetic little short term ban. Only then might these people start behaving themselves and treating their horses with some respect. I hate to think what people like him do to their horses at home, it so sad they're destroying our sport.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Been going on for longer than i can remember. The fact he got up early in the morning makes you wonder if he had always done the same thing at these stay away shows! There are people who HH and others say are amazing riders, i had a horse off one of them many years ago. He had, had electrics, been rapped and who knows what else. I wouldn't let the rider anywhere near my bike! Yet they are constantly written about for their amazing riding/horses. The fact most of what they ride are in huge bits and masks often makes me wonder if that is due to the fact they run on fear! Same as one of the event riders who is even worse, until it is constantly called out and proper fines/bans are implemented it will carry on.

Caveat: I am picking on this comment, but it's not intended to be personal to OP as several other posters on this thread (and across HHO) have done the same thing, but because it's the one I was reading when I felt compelled to reply.

The irony of this thread is astounding, how many posts have criticised a steward or bystander or the BSJA for not holding people accountable, or seeing it and turning a blind eye, but then like the above 'I bought a horse from someone who did these hideous things, he's been in HH' and then not naming them... you are enabling the continuation of their behaviour yourself, just as others are being blamed for doing. On the whole on this forum, you are about as anonymous as you will ever be (well some, not me as I post photos etc all the time), so if you see it, say it. If someone should have a reputation for doing horrid things, then get talking about it and give them the reputation they deserve. If we as the public/supporters/viewers/money providers to the sport won't even say something anonymously then what hope does anyone else have!?

 

[AmyMay]

Caveat: I am picking on this comment, but it's not intended to be personal to OP as several other posters on this thread (and across HHO) have done the same thing, but because it's the one I was reading when I felt compelled to reply.

The irony of this thread is astounding, how many posts have criticised a steward or bystander or the BSJA for not holding people accountable, or seeing it and turning a blind eye, but then like the above 'I bought a horse from someone who did these hideous things, he's been in HH' and then not naming them... you are enabling the continuation of their behaviour yourself, just as others are being blamed for doing. On the whole on this forum, you are about as anonymous as you will ever be (well some, not me as I post photos etc all the time), so if you see it, say it. If someone should have a reputation for doing horrid things, then get talking about it and give them the reputation they deserve. If we as the public/supporters/viewers/money providers to the sport won't even say something anonymously then what hope does anyone else have!?

You can’t blithely go about libelling people on an open forum

 

[Snowfilly]

Caveat: I am picking on this comment, but it's not intended to be personal to OP as several other posters on this thread (and across HHO) have done the same thing, but because it's the one I was reading when I felt compelled to reply.

The irony of this thread is astounding, how many posts have criticised a steward or bystander or the BSJA for not holding people accountable, or seeing it and turning a blind eye, but then like the above 'I bought a horse from someone who did these hideous things, he's been in HH' and then not naming them... you are enabling the continuation of their behaviour yourself, just as others are being blamed for doing. On the whole on this forum, you are about as anonymous as you will ever be (well some, not me as I post photos etc all the time), so if you see it, say it. If someone should have a reputation for doing horrid things, then get talking about it and give them the reputation they deserve. If we as the public/supporters/viewers/money providers to the sport won't even say something anonymously then what hope does anyone else have!?

Because 1) it’s again the forum rules and 2) you can’t libel someone on a public forum

 

[Birker2020]

Because 1) it’s again the forum rules and 2) you can’t libel someone on a public forum

Well I got slandered but Admin didn't do anything about it. Just because I am not a public figure doesn't make it any less libellous.

 

[AmyMay]

Well I got slandered but Admin didn't do anything about it. Just because I am not a public figure doesn't make it any less libellous.

Did you sue them?