Bucking bronco horse - help! Should I sell him?

[ycbm]

i am assuming not bad enough for the chiro to recommend vet intervention .... so we assume the back is a small niggle

A list A Physio didn't think my horse's back, or my friends horse, was bad enough to refer to a vet. They both had kissing spines. Another physio missed it for three years in another friend's horse. One horse so bad it was immediately put down, two were operated on. And for that reason i would never assume that a sore back is a small niggle.

i would still want a pro opinion of the horse, if only to give a vet a clearer picture from a more experienced rider. I'm not suggesting someone rides it for hours or beats it black and blue just that a better rider hops on to see.

The trouble is that mentally stronger riders are perfectly capable of persuading horses that they have no option but to work through pain without beating it black and blue. Sue Dyson talks about it in her lameness video. Which is why I would never recommend anyone who's checked the basics to continue without x rays and scans to rule out common but not obvious sources of pain like bilateral hocks, SI, bilateral PSD, bilateral navicular syndrome and kissing spines.

 

[Hallo2012]

A list A Physio didn't think my horse's back, or my friends horse, was bad enough to refer to a vet. They both had kissing spines. Another physio missed it for three years in another friend's horse. One horse so bad it was immediately put down, two were operated on. And for that reason i would never assume that a sore back is a small niggle.



The trouble is that mentally stronger riders are perfectly capable of persuading horses that they have no option but to work through pain without beating it black and blue. Sue Dyson talks about it in her lameness video. Which is why I would never recommend anyone who's checked the basics to continue without x rays and scans to rule out common but not obvious sources of pain like bilateral hocks, SI, bilateral PSD, bilateral navicular syndrome and kissing spines.

thats your opinion and mine is different.

i often get asked to sit on horses to see if the problem is "just me"(the rider) and sometimes it is and sometimes it isnt an tbh its normal immediately obvious which it is.

my gut said physical and when i asked the more pro, pro to get on my poor boy it was also immediately obvious no matter how mentally strong he was, it wasnt making a jot of improvement.

i agree its not unheard of for very strong riders to force a horse sound by being able to hold one side of it, or force a sore horse to go even if it doesnt want to. But the OP sounds wary and out of interest i would want to see someone more confident on the horse do no more than go to the same place and ask for the same canter, and see what happens.

 

[ester]

I see the OP is from the Peterborough area and bought her horse from a dealer. There is an extremely notorious dealer (well known on here) that is from that area. If the horse is from there then yes it probably does have a whole host of issues, but if not I would get a full vet work up and if that is clear then perhaps an opinion from a pro.

I wondered the same,

I also can't see that this horse has had 'quite a lot of checks', they've literally only scratched the surface. Absolutely plenty of young horses with have a buck and a yeeha, but continually rearing and bucking until the rider falls off? That is too much for me not to give the horse the benefit of the doubt.

My only one caveat to that is you say he cantered home again today, and it was his first canter since treatment- which leaves me to believe you were hacking. Do you have access to a school? Only because if not getting him somewhere that does for a bit, and someone with an experienced eye would probably be helpful.

Also OP, did you take bloods at vetting? The timing could work...

 

[ycbm]

my gut said physical and when i asked the more pro, pro to get on my poor boy it was also immediately obvious no matter how mentally strong he was, it wasnt making a jot of improvement.

.

I'm very sorry you lost him, but do you ever wonder what the situation might have been if you had had a thorough workup and spine x rays and ulcer scope done on your three year old when he was difficult to back instead of sending him to experts in difficult horses, who backed him using a western saddle?


A friend of mine got pros to break her sharp three year old and school him on at four and then five when she found him 'too sharp'. When she decided to sell him, the agent sent him back as unsellable by her (but not unsound) and a workup showed a stifle issue which was untreatable and he was put to sleep recently at six. He'd been trying to tell people about it for three years, but no-one was listening.

 

[Slightly Foxed]

Agree that this horse sounds like he's in pain and needs a thorough veterinary check. Chiros and physios should be working WITH vets anyway, not INSTEAD of them imho.

 

[ozpoz]

try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lPvyxzSER0.

I believe every rider or horse owner should watch this and learn from a few world leaders in their speciality!

It is very easy to watch, really informative and made for horse owners and riders, like most of us are here. We owe it to our horses to keep an open mind and to keep learning, and we so often just keep repeating opinions instead.

 

[{108361}]

Throwing a buck going into canter is quite common behaviour in a young horse. If the rider reacts by shortening, rather than kicking on to 'flatten out' the buck, it can easily turn into explosive rearing/bucking.

Not saying that's the case here, but worth mentioning, as many 'normal' horses get labelled with problems which could be reduced or eliminated by a more experienced rider.

Thanks yes I know - I have trained this out of horses before. However this is much more extreme than a bit of bucking in transitions. In this case I kicked on and he got more exaggerated in the rear/buck combo. I sat it out and it wasn't until I turned into a ditch to stop him that I actually fell off.

 

[{108361}]

I wondered the same,

I also can't see that this horse has had 'quite a lot of checks', they've literally only scratched the surface. Absolutely plenty of young horses with have a buck and a yeeha, but continually rearing and bucking until the rider falls off? That is too much for me not to give the horse the benefit of the doubt.

My only one caveat to that is you say he cantered home again today, and it was his first canter since treatment- which leaves me to believe you were hacking. Do you have access to a school? Only because if not getting him somewhere that does for a bit, and someone with an experienced eye would probably be helpful.

Also OP, did you take bloods at vetting? The timing could work...

Thank, no he didn't come from a Peterborough dealer (know exactly which one you mean!). No bloods done at vetting. Im going to try cantering him in a school, we were out on our own when this happened. I cantered him in tack on a lunge line today and he seems quite happy in canter and transitions to canter. I could be missing something here however. Im going to contact my insurance company and see if they will pay for x rays. This kind of extreme branching is scary, though I can just about sit it out I will lose my nerve eventually.

 

[Queenbee]

most horses that do any form of ridden work do have twinges and tweaks, rarely does any horse go without ever needing attention to the back,neck,poll etc.
i dont find it abnormal that the horse has some stiff or sore areas(has it been clarified what was sore and how badly? i am assuming not bad enough for the chiro to recommend vet intervention)

so we assume the back is a small niggle, saddle and teeth ok. i would still want a pro opinion of the horse, if only to give a vet a clearer picture from a more experienced rider.

im not suggesting someone rides it for hours or beats it black and blue just that a better rider hops on to see.

You know what happens when you assume? You make an ass out of u and me

Please do not patronise me assuming that I do not know that most horses in work benefit from Chiro or sports massage, this however does not seem like a twinge or tweak. Twinges and tweaks very rarely cause an explosive reaction and after a session with the chiro one would not expect a repeat of such behaviour if indeed it was just a twinge or tweak that was resolved by the chiro.

Agreed, a pro is needed, but a professional clinical opinion not ridden. It is entirely irresponsible to be recommending that the OP put a rider on the horses back without thoroughly investigating with a vet and eliminating pain being the cause of the behaviour.


In response to your last para - lets say a pro rider gets on, gets tossed, loses the ability to earn due to injury for a while and then the vet is called and it is found to be a pain response? How is that fair on horse, owner or pro? Its entirely irresponsible to recommend riding before ruling out an injury or physiological condition.

 

[fairhill]

There’s a fab horse trainer, and stunt rider, who has recently moved to Spalding area. I am sure you could get him out for an assessment of you and the horse, if no physical causes are found. His FB is guido Louis equine behavioural trainer.

 

[Queenbee]

Thank, no he didn't come from a Peterborough dealer (know exactly which one you mean!). No bloods done at vetting. Im going to try cantering him in a school, we were out on our own when this happened. I cantered him in tack on a lunge line today and he seems quite happy in canter and transitions to canter. I could be missing something here however. Im going to contact my insurance company and see if they will pay for x rays. This kind of extreme branching is scary, though I can just about sit it out I will lose my nerve eventually.

I may be wrong but I think the standard is that they pay out on x-rays if something is found in the the x-ray (I am pretty sure someone was talking about this a week or so ago in the vet forum), I wouldn't want to flag up any possible issues to your insurance before making a decision on what route you wish to take. Perhaps start a new thread in veterinary to get advice from others who have gone down the exploratory route through insurance to see what and what is not normally covered

 

[{108361}]

Sorry to hear you are having problems and I completely understand about your safety. No horse is worth getting injured for.

Does he lunge? Could you pop him on the lunge and ask for canter and see what you get? Then perhaps get on in the school (or an enclosed space) if he seems ok. I would wear a body protector though, just in case.

Has this literally come out of nowhere? Previously, has he been a little sharp or prone to a humped, tense back when being ridden?

Unfortunately these issues are rarely easy to figure out and can become costly and time consuming. You’ve obviously done initial pain checks, but there may well be something going on that only xrays or a scan would find. Is the horse insured?

Thank you for your reply. Yes he is insured so Im hoping Im covered for x rays as I need to get that checked.

I've ridden him 5 days per week since I got him and he has always been fine in all gaits - forward but not naughty. I lunged him today and he seemed quite happy to canter and transitions in all gaits. Im going to see if I can get someone to watch me ride him in the school in canter and see what he does. If he doesn't do it then I can only assume that he isn't in pain - its naughtiness.

 

[ester]

I've seen other people say good things about guido too.

I'm pleased you do have somewhere safe to work/evaluate him, I hoped not re. the dealers as you seemed fairly experience but always worth checking!

Re. diagnostics being covered it seems to depend, plenty do cover even if nothing is found if you are doing them for a reason, but I also think this is one of the reasons that people say 'vets will always find something' usually they can just so that they can be sure the insurance will pay even if it isn't the main/only problem.

It is interesting that you say he has been fine in all gaits previously.

 

[BSL]

deleted

 

[ozpoz]

A good equine vet should assess the horse being ridden, if the problems present when ridden. Otherwise what is the point?

 

[{108361}]

There’s a fab horse trainer, and stunt rider, who has recently moved to Spalding area. I am sure you could get him out for an assessment of you and the horse, if no physical causes are found. His FB is guido Louis equine behavioural trainer.

How funny, a girl at my yard has suggested this bloke. Going to message him and see what he says.

 

[ycbm]

If you had him vetted why was no blood taken?

 

[ycbm]

. If he doesn't do it then I can only assume that he isn't in pain - its naughtiness.

You can't assume that from one ride. It may hurt more some days than others. He may feel more tolerant some days than others. Something else might push him over the edge on bad days.

Is there any idea at all why his back was sore?

 

[Hallo2012]

I'm very sorry you lost him, but do you ever wonder what the situation might have been if you had had a thorough workup and spine x rays and ulcer scope done on your three year old when he was difficult to back instead of sending him to experts in difficult horses, who backed him using a western saddle?


A friend of mine got pros to break her sharp three year old and school him on at four and then five when she found him 'too sharp'. When she decided to sell him, the agent sent him back as unsellable by her (but not unsound) and a workup showed a stifle issue which was untreatable and he was put to sleep recently at six. He'd been trying to tell people about it for three years, but no-one was listening.

yes of course i do but with it being auto immune and untreatable the outcome would have been the same. hard to make a call about a big healthy 3yo stallion from a difficult sire that looked incredibly healthy and once actually backed was a darling for his entire 4yo year. ...............

it doesnt change what i think or would do, the vast majority of marginally naughty horses are not in physical pain. and the OP horse has done this twice in similar circumstances so not much of a pattern and is now wary of the horse-a classic recipe for the horse taking the P.

he did have spinal x rays which were clear so that wouldnt have made any diff at any age?

 

[Hallo2012]

You know what happens when you assume? You make an ass out of u and me

Please do not patronise me assuming that I do not know that most horses in work benefit from Chiro or sports massage, this however does not seem like a twinge or tweak. Twinges and tweaks very rarely cause an explosive reaction and after a session with the chiro one would not expect a repeat of such behaviour if indeed it was just a twinge or tweak that was resolved by the chiro.

Agreed, a pro is needed, but a professional clinical opinion not ridden. It is entirely irresponsible to be recommending that the OP put a rider on the horses back without thoroughly investigating with a vet and eliminating pain being the cause of the behaviour.


In response to your last para - lets say a pro rider gets on, gets tossed, loses the ability to earn due to injury for a while and then the vet is called and it is found to be a pain response? How is that fair on horse, owner or pro? Its entirely irresponsible to recommend riding before ruling out an injury or physiological condition.

no it would be irresponsible if they didnt tell the person before they got on.

asking a better rider to sit on a "naughty" horse and be paid for the pleasure is not irresponsible if the rider is fully clued up. i do it all the time, my friends who also teach do it all the time, i have had someone better than me do it on one of mine. stop making a total mountain out of a molehill, ive not suggest she lie or conceal the horses behavior.

how on earth do you think horses get re-trained if no one ever gets paid to sit the buck/rear/nap etc?!

i would still want another opinion because the first thing a vet will probably say, having done it twice and the OP is now worried to get back on it "what does he do with your trainer on"? to try and establish pattern. I spoke to Newmarket at length about my horse before he was PTS and putting a different rider one was something they wanted to do as part of their investigation (i had already done that and they were happy with that)

 

[ycbm]

Well that's where I think we are having a problem agreeing. I agree with you that the majority of horses which are marginally difficult are a rider issue. I wouldn't call the horse and the behaviour that the OP describes 'marginally difficult'.

..... went bananas bucking and bronc-ing

...... went nuts again -rear then buck then rear then buck, like a lunatic......when he couldn't get me off that way he spun, dropped a shoulder and dumped me and bolted home.

.... as once he wants you off he just keeps at it until he gets you off.

OP, I think you've missed my question. Can you tell us why your vet didn't take bloods at the vetting. That is very unusual. Did you use the vendor's vet?

 

[Hallo2012]

it bronced once.

then had a rear and a buck after a period of time off............ive seen far far worse in the warm up at young horse dressage shows lol!

now OP is worried so we have nothing else to go on, to me thats not very extreme behaviour in a young fit fresh horse in spring with a slightly nervy rider tbh, all of the youngsters i have backed would do the same if over fresh and not ridden firmly forward confidently out hacking...................unfortunately we(as a country) seem to be breeding and importing more and more very flashy but very sharp horses that will pull stunts like this but thats a whole other issue!!!!!

 

[ycbm]

Good, we can agree again. I don't think it's 'very extreme' behaviour either. Especially at this time of year in a horse which was sold looking lean.

But sufficiently extreme to give a horse which had been diagnosed as having 'a bad back' by a physio, where no reason has been found for it having had a bad back, and the behaviour is out of character, the benefit of the doubt of examination by a vet.

 

[Regandal]

I agree with further investigations, horse is trying to tell you something. I'd also get a different saddle fitter out. 3 months of regular riding will have changed his back, ISH's can be deceptively wide.

 

[nikkimariet]

yes of course i do but with it being auto immune and untreatable the outcome would have been the same. hard to make a call about a big healthy 3yo stallion from a difficult sire that looked incredibly healthy and once actually backed was a darling for his entire 4yo year. ...............

it doesnt change what i think or would do, the vast majority of marginally naughty horses are not in physical pain. and the OP horse has done this twice in similar circumstances so not much of a pattern and is now wary of the horse-a classic recipe for the horse taking the P.

he did have spinal x rays which were clear so that wouldnt have made any diff at any age?

KS diagnosis from everyones favourite online vet Cptrayes. Classic!

 

[ycbm]

KS diagnosis from everyones favourite online vet Cptrayes. Classic!

No diagnosis from me, just a suggestion that the OP get a vet involved with a horse showing signs of potentially being in pain.

I can't help thinking this is related to the fact that a vetting was done without taking a blood test. The OP doesn't seem to want to explain why or how that happened.

 

[jhoward]

No diagnosis from me, just a suggestion that the OP get a vet involved with a horse showing signs of potentially being in pain.

I can't help thinking this is related to the fact that a vetting was done without taking a blood test. The OP doesn't seem to want to explain why or how that happened.

it may of not been a 5 stage vetting, nything lower no bloods would be taken unless requested.

 

[ycbm]

it may of not been a 5 stage vetting, nything lower no bloods would be taken unless requested.

Do people do that regularly? Have a vetting without taking blood? I would have thought it's completely pointless having a vetting done (unless buying from a very good friend) without taking a blood sample. It doesn't even cost anything.

 

[honetpot]

When I was younger and a lot braver I bought a mare who had learned to frighten her previous owner. Her party trick was going sideways at great speed for no apparent reason or giving a massive buck, spinning and shooting off home. She would go for weeks with doing either then do one or the other and you had to ride her 100% all the time, you could not switch off. You could never get lost on her as she always knew the way home. My other mare would have a buck in spring and the odd spin and dump, the children rode her bareback at PC and 99% of the time she was a complete schoolmistress.
I would look at all the circumstances. Its spring and not hot enough for them to be lazy, spring grass and turnout they have made a new friend in the field and they would rather be eating with them. If they are on their toes lots of trotting away from home, if hacking always hack with someone and everything is controlled and planned, if you canter its up a hill, I know difficult in the fens. If its bucks sit up and try and kick on. With a bit of luck it will buck every stride and it will be a bouncy canter rather than a standing handstand.
There could be something wrong, but four months on a young horse isn't very long and this time of year is the most explosive. If you are going to lunge do not get him too fit, you will tire before he does.
I thinking getting someone else to asses him may be a good idea.

 

[Abi90]

Do people do that regularly? Have a vetting without taking blood? I would have thought it's completely pointless having a vetting done (unless buying from a very good friend) without taking a blood sample. It doesn't even cost anything.

For every vetting I’ve ever had it’s always been £20-£30 more for a blood sample. So perhaps she was trying to keep costs down? (Although admittedly silly to quibble over what is comparatively small change compared to the price of a horse)