Buy it or train it?

milliepops said:
Shoulder in is a doddle but LY...NOPE! :D Maybe it's me... Kira was the same :p

Def look out for Olivia Towers on FB, I started following her after having a lesson last year... I can't bring myself to watch all her vlogs but the little snippets she posts like Wednesday Wisdom or whatever it's called really do ring true, if you can get over the schmaltz ;)

The other thing about setbacks is that usually you can find a positive somewhere, but it might take a day or 2 before you can think clearly rather than be emotional. If I have a rubbish show, there's usually something even if it's like - tricky horse loaded and travelled well... that's still a win! Might also be 'i rode the test really well even if the horse was off her game today' or 'i didn't allow myself to get distracted in the warm up' etc.
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:D :D yep same - SI accepted on first attempt, LY whoooooolllee other kettle of fish - but the positive to come out of that is we found out deep down there is a very good piri canter waiting to make an appearance!

Agreed - I tend to watch the vlogs at the end of the day, lying in bed waiting to be taken by sleep :D but it does make sense and has given me a few good things to mull over!

How was your lesson with her? It's a MEGA drive for me but i keep considering the camps that she runs
 
She came to our yard as one of the other girls wanted a lesson so organised a clinic.
I thought I better stop being a party pooper and join in (I don't join the Phoebe Buckley clinics that someone else runs :rolleyes:)

I rode Millie, because she was coming back to work at that time and I didn't want to disrupt what I was doing with Kira - Adam gets her little brain so well.

Anyway, I said to her that I needed resetting because I had spent so long rehabbing Millie that I'd forgotten how to ride her properly :p I needed someone to get me riding her at AM level rather than riding AM exercises at Novice level if you see what I mean?
She was good - critical but encouraging, chatty but not overly so, definitely gave me lots of good pointers and a general kick up the bum which is what I needed at the time.

A friend had a lesson on her pony which was kind of wobbly prelim level at the time - she was good with her too, identified the main problem and gave some exercises to work on that.

The horse belonging to the girl who organised the clinic is a wily old "schoolmaster" gone rogue - owner was struggling so Olivia got on it and helped get him a bit more on side.

I'd have another one, still maybe not with Kira but def with Salty.

Are you in the Olivia Towers on tour group on FB (called something like that anyway)? She's organising clinics in other areas which might be better?
 
milliepops said:
She came to our yard as one of the other girls wanted a lesson so organised a clinic.
I thought I better stop being a party pooper and join in (I don't join the Phoebe Buckley clinics that someone else runs :rolleyes:)

I rode Millie, because she was coming back to work at that time and I didn't want to disrupt what I was doing with Kira - Adam gets her little brain so well.

Anyway, I said to her that I needed resetting because I had spent so long rehabbing Millie that I'd forgotten how to ride her properly :p I needed someone to get me riding her at AM level rather than riding AM exercises at Novice level if you see what I mean?
She was good - critical but encouraging, chatty but not overly so, definitely gave me lots of good pointers and a general kick up the bum which is what I needed at the time.

A friend had a lesson on her pony which was kind of wobbly prelim level at the time - she was good with her too, identified the main problem and gave some exercises to work on that.

The horse belonging to the girl who organised the clinic is a wily old "schoolmaster" gone rogue - owner was struggling so Olivia got on it and helped get him a bit more on side.

I'd have another one, still maybe not with Kira but def with Salty.

Are you in the Olivia Towers on tour group on FB (called something like that anyway)? She's organising clinics in other areas which might be better?
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Oh sounds good! yes am in the 'tour' group but still nothing has come within reasonable distance for an 'un known' lesson.

There are a few people harassing for Hampshire dates so i'll leave it to them, sounds like it might be beneficial even for just another set of eyes on the ground
 
I've always been in the "train it" camp, but after losing Aus, who I had from a huge gangly unbroken baby, and who was just starting all the "P"s when he died, I lost my mojo completely, and didn't ride for years. I then decided I wanted to ride again, but just for fun, so advertised for an older advanced horse to play around with - and along came Alf. He and I have similar views on life - we just want to hack about, and occasionally go in the school, run through the twiddly bits, then collapse in a heap.
 
Bernster said:
Jenni - interesting to read your post. Didn't you do a review not so long ago, I remember thinking what amazing fun you'd had and how well you'd done. I don't think I appreciated how many bumps you'd had along the way. So good to read that you're in a better place now
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Oh I’ll never shy away from the fact 2017 was an absolute rollercoaster of a year!


I have had the most phenomenal year, she is absolutely amazing and she has taught me so much- but we were a brand new partnership and I felt under so much pressure to be out there and proving to people just what we could do, without really having cemented the confidence in the partnership first. That’s where we ran into trouble. It all started when she did a slidey having a hooley in the field and strained her back- being off work bored her and then coming back into work she was a little bit of a handful and I expected far too much far too soon. She IS sensitive!

Luckily for us we had the right support on the yard, and we’re coming through the other end. My attitude has had to be the biggest change if I’m honest. She doesn’t kick off for no reason- there’s always a reason. She’s very skilled in the art of compromise.

But for every low, there’s been 10 highs. Hand on heart. 3 broken ribs and a burst kidney too though, for good measure ;)

LeannePip what’s your Instagram? If you don’t mind?
 
Although I’d ridden for years (friends horses and riding schools - I had no money!), I’d never competed or seriously trained a horse, so when I was looking for my second horse I planned to get a schoolmaster who could take me out and about. I fell for a cheeky, green, strong wee cob and ended up on the training route. I’m loving the training. It has helped being able to have weekly lessons from a trainer who is super with green horses and keeps me going when I seriously question whether we can progress (spent an awfly long time finding left canter, as an example).
We’ve done our first competitions - and she improves every time out. We have a great bond, and just recently everything has started to feel easier. Even thinking we can try a cheeky wee novice test in next few weeks!
Yes, a more experienced person could have got to this point more quickly, but I’m enjoying the journey and the learning experience. Now, I wouldn’t swap this for the world.
 
I was looking for a schoolmaster after loosing my confidence. I also wanted a companion for it. The schoolmaster never materialized, the companion did. Nearly 24 years later I still have him having backed him myself.

I currently have a homebred mare that again I have trained myself. I had some help with her though as she was the first one I've done since having the kids (confidence needed a boost!).

So rewarding bringing them on yourself, I love it. :)
 
I'm a "train it" as well, as I've never been able to afford to "buy it".

Everything I've had in the last 30 years I've either bred or purchased as a weanling or yearling, and then done everything from there. I can afford to pay someone else to start them under saddle for me now, but I still do everything else. And I have to say that I love most every minute of it.
 
I am definitely in both the 'wobbly amateur' and the 'train it' camps.....

Very rewarding to bring on your own. And I agree with whoever said you get out what you put in. It's 4.38am as I type.... I'm off to Aintree which is 2 hours away to school in their indoor. The only slot they had was 8-10am meaning a 5.30 departure from the yard.

I have felt out of my depth 100 times with Amber and I have been very tempted to send her off to be properly produced by someone with more of a clue. But we are plodding along the scenic route and loving it, despite the odd crisis of confidence.
 
Previously I had attempted to “buy it” with very little success. Then I ended up with a “train it” scenario. And she’s the most straightforward, easy and trainable Horse out the lot!
 
Very few in the 'buy' camp it seems. For me, that's been mainly due to not finding the right horse to buy, and budget to a degree, as I've always tried to buy it! Just didn't work this time around.

Thinking back, I did buy a safe sane fella when I got my first gelding. He wasn't a high level horse but he was a schoolmaster for what I wanted to do. Did loads on him but still needed plenty of lessons.

Then bought my lovely mare who wasn't a schoolmaster, too young to say that, but she had had the basics installed and a good start, and had more experience eventing than me. Sadly soundness issues meant we never quite got going.

And whilst I'm thinking of that, how on earth can a 6yo be advertised as a schoolmaster - seen a few ads lately saying that?
 
milliepops said:
haha! Pleased it helped someone :p def sometimes helps to take a different approach sometimes doesn't it? the textbook doesn't always work and now he's got the concept I bet you can go back to the "book way" and he will know what you want :)
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Where is this video? Could you post it here pleeeeaaaseee? :)
 
Jenni_ said:
LeannePip what’s your Instagram? If you don’t mind?
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seckereventing - It's very new so probably a bit boring :D

Ambers Echo said:
I am definitely in both the 'wobbly amateur' and the 'train it' camps.....

Very rewarding to bring on your own. And I agree with whoever said you get out what you put in. It's 4.38am as I type.... I'm off to Aintree which is 2 hours away to school in their indoor. The only slot they had was 8-10am meaning a 5.30 departure from the yard.

I have felt out of my depth 100 times with Amber and I have been very tempted to send her off to be properly produced by someone with more of a clue. But we are plodding along the scenic route and loving it, despite the odd crisis of confidence.
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Wow that's dedication AE - is that the closest indoor to you?

I feel out of my depth a lot too, but my instructors are very good at getting me back on track - I describe the feeling to them as riding along a dodgy mountain track with a big drop either way and one false move will send us crashing down and ruin everything, when essentially its more like a grass ditch at the side of the road and we can fix it no problem.
 
Bernster said:
Very few in the 'buy' camp it seems. For me, that's been mainly due to not finding the right horse to buy, and budget to a degree, as I've always tried to buy it! Just didn't work this time around.

Thinking back, I did buy a safe sane fella when I got my first gelding. He wasn't a high level horse but he was a schoolmaster for what I wanted to do. Did loads on him but still needed plenty of lessons.

Then bought my lovely mare who wasn't a schoolmaster, too young to say that, but she had had the basics installed and a good start, and had more experience eventing than me. Sadly soundness issues meant we never quite got going.

And whilst I'm thinking of that, how on earth can a 6yo be advertised as a schoolmaster - seen a few ads lately saying that?
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Do you think in part most people are in the train it Camp because they don’t have the funds (or maybe inclination) to get the schoolmaster?

In my case I would probably always have been in the train it Camp - mostly because I don’t have decent money to spend on horses for me to ride.
But my schoolmistress was originally on short term loan, I then scrabbled the money together to buy a share so I could keep the ride - and that was purely because she was opening my eyes to things I thought I knew but actually didn’t!
 
Agree with IHW, also a lot of people think they are buying a 'buy it' but actually once they get it home realise it's a 'train it' weather its because its greener than they thought or it goes backwards or they acctually can't ride one side of it, i dont think i know anyone who has bought a 'buy it' and actually been able to go straight out and do what they intended straight away.
 
I think it is also because 'buy it' seems so easy in principle, but actually it is pretty difficult. You might buy a decent level dressage horse for example and then have to spend time training it to hack well and to perform for a rider that isn't the person who trained it.

I've seen quite a few high level competition horses sold as schoolmasters in their teens that the new rider then struggles to get on with, in spite of being good riders themselves. I think with any new horse you have to go through a bit of a process to get where you want (and that will require investment), and that might be why the option of buying something cheaper and younger and instead spending the money on more training and putting a pro on board on a regular basis is an increasingly attractive option.
 
LeannePip said:
Agree with IHW, also a lot of people think they are buying a 'buy it' but actually once they get it home realise it's a 'train it' weather its because its greener than they thought or it goes backwards or they acctually can't ride one side of it, i dont think i know anyone who has bought a 'buy it' and actually been able to go straight out and do what they intended straight away.
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I actually think it would be very unrealistic to get a ‘buy it’ and expect to be straight out at the level you want to be riding at. It took me 8 months and a hell of a lot of training before I rode at the level of my horse and even that was pretty quick in all consideration. I spent time on the lunge and on a mechanical horse in that period too!
 
LeannePip said:
seckereventing - It's very new so probably a bit boring :D



Wow that's dedication AE - is that the closest indoor to you?

I feel out of my depth a lot too, but my instructors are very good at getting me back on track - I describe the feeling to them as riding along a dodgy mountain track with a big drop either way and one false move will send us crashing down and ruin everything, when essentially its more like a grass ditch at the side of the road and we can fix it no problem.
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It's not the closest but I am competing there on 4th Feb so wanted to practice. Our first SJ comp! And I'm glad I went because I've never seen such well dressed spooky fences! And she's never jumped indoors before either. She was a star. Not one refusal or even a hesitation. Jumped a full course clear. I rode like a Muppet and she could have taken advantage but didn't. Fab horse.
 
Yes I agree - but i think that's why theres more people in the 'train it' camp because a lot of people will consider that gap between buying and getting back to the level it was makes it more a 'train it' journey.

I think my point is there is a degree of 'train it' when you buy any horse regardless of whether its a raw 4yo or an Intermediate eventer.
 
LeannePip said:
Yes I agree - but i think that's why theres more people in the 'train it' camp because a lot of people will consider that gap between buying and getting back to the level it was makes it more a 'train it' journey.

I think my point is there is a degree of 'train it' when you buy any horse regardless of whether its a raw 4yo or an Intermediate eventer.
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I completely agree but would tweak that to its a ‘train the rider’ rather than ‘train the horse’.

Very difficult to really train a horse unless you really ‘get it’ yourself.
If you are only ever training the untrained then you don’t always know you are going wrong until the wheels fall off.

I only know that because I’ve been there :D and I’m pretty rubbish!
 
I set out to buy an older schoolmaster and ended up with a newly broken 5yo, who sadly sustained a career-ending injury in the field not long after I bought her. On my vets advice, I got a second so that I had something to distract myself with whilst we turned her away in the hope she'd come sound. Horse number 2 (M), had been schooled to PSG and was out competing at AM with decent results. I could never in a million years have afforded him at market value, but his owner had known my trainer many years and agreed to me having him on permanent loan. As fate would have it, a few months later we had to put Pops to sleep, at which point I threw myself into getting to grips with M more as a distraction than anything else!

He is the total opposite of Pops in nearly every way, but incidentally in the year or so I've had him he's become my absolute horse of a lifetime and if I'm honest is the sort of horse I should have got when I set out to buy two years ago. As a fellow wobbly amateur it's been a breath of fresh air to have a horse that knows his stuff, so I can focus on getting me right (and there was a lot that's needed tweaking!). There's definitely been challenges along the way (the downfall is he shines a light at all my shortcomings) and it's a steeper learning curve as he's less generous than a horse that you've worked with to produce up the levels, but on the flipside, once we suss something it's great. I still dream of having a youngster to bring up the levels, as personally I feel there's nothing more rewarding but at the moment I'm just enjoying the journey with M knowing that all this experience I'm gaining will be of great help when I do finally buy another.
 
Oh a lack of money is definitely a factor for many of us. I also don't really "trust" a lot of other people's approach to training - not that they're getting it wrong, necessarily, but more that it's not always compatible with what I want. Granted, I am a bit unusual as I do odd things...

I think it's pretty hard to find what you really want in the schoolmaster market - between dodgy dealers, over-optimistic private sellers, people who think a "schoolmaster" is braindead and unresponsive, and differences in styles of riding and training between sellers and buyers. And on the other side of the market, buyers who think they need a "real" schoolmaster (but actually need a braindead exRS type), buyers who over-estimate their skill, management or bravery, or don't take (or seek) advice from those in a position to judge - it's a lack of clarity from start to finish.
 
milliepops said:
If that was all I had to ride, I'd have been a bit miserable since it was a lot of hard work and mentally quite challenging.

:)
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This is me right now. Coming up to 3 year anniversary and if I look back on where we came from (barely handled, tried to kill everyone she met, went over backwards on the lad who tried to back her & was heading off for a bullet) then its a looooong way. Trouble is the journey has been exhausting - not least because there have been a tonne of physical issues, esp the PSSM - and I often wish I'd gone for a horse where someone else had done the hard work.

I also don't think she's helped my riding. I made a reference to the box of rosettes my parent's had found in their attic at the yard the other day and one of the liveries said "YOU used to compete?" in that tone of voice...... So obviously I look like I can barely rise to the trot then! I do wish I'd had something else to enjoy whilst training this one.
 
As someone else said, I think it's more a choice of whether to put the training into the horse or into yourself as a rider! Obviously you always do a bit of both, but I'm sure that if I bought a PSG schoolmaster I'd spend as much on learning to ride it as I'd spend on training a younger one ;)

I'm not sure where my two are on the train it / buy it spectrum although they've only ever been competed by me. Pocholo was my first horse as an adult, having recently got back into riding after a 10 year break. He'd been trained in Spain and was very safe to hack, could do piaffe and Spanish walk and some of the lateral movements. However he couldn't trot a 20m circle in a consistent rhythm and bend or work correctly over the back, so we very much went back to basics and re-built from there.

Indio I bought as an unbroken 3yo (actually he was supposed to be my husband's horse). He was backed in Spain but in a more 'English' way so he always went into the contact. Picked up lateral work and changes easily by the age of 5 despite taking it slowly, but then a physical issue emerged that made him go very crooked. Turned him away then lots of hacking, then brought him to England 3 years ago and again had to do a lot of training to get him straighter. Finally found the root of his issues last year but still a huge amount of work to do. Again I'm loving the journey (most of the time...) and learning a huge amount.

I've now bought a foal so will definitely be training!! But he's got a lot more quality than I could afford in a 'made' horse, plus he's very cute. And he's Indio's great-nephew ;)
 
JFTD said:
I also don't really "trust" a lot of other people's approach to training - not that they're getting it wrong, necessarily, but more that it's not always compatible with what I want.
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I can really relate to this. I fell into horse training by accident really. I was offered a bolshy aggressive 3YO on loan and as at the time I was reading a lot about groundwork etc I figured why not give it a go? I would not have had the confidence to buy a youngster but the owner of this one wanted rid of him for a bit so I took him on. And I found it remarkable how quickly he went from a yob to a gentleman with a bit of groundwork. I re-backed him and got him going really well and then he was sold.

That gave me the confidence to buy an unbacked 3YO who was just lovely. So straightforward compared to every older horse I had known. Since then I have tended to go for the 'blank canvas' so I can do things my own way.

My problem is that although the actual backing process is fine - from unhandled to ridden away - I am not a skilled enough rider to then produce a horse properly. Amber is a really good horse. But she needs someone to produce her well to realise her potential. I know horses have no sense of being 'wasted' but I know that she really is a bit wasted on me!
 
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j1ffy said:
As someone else said, I think it's more a choice of whether to put the training into the horse or into yourself as a rider! Obviously you always do a bit of both, but I'm sure that if I bought a PSG schoolmaster I'd spend as much on learning to ride it as I'd spend on training a younger one ;)
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Absolutely! Whilst I understand where the OP is coming from with the question of buy it or train it, I do think even with (or possibly more so) high level schoolmasters there are very few that come ready made for any rider. I know personally that it's taken a year out from competing and a minimum of 2 lessons a week (sometimes way more!) for me to reach a point where I feel I can truly influence M's way of going and have started to feel like a proper team. I guess at any level it's very much a case of you get out what you put in and whilst the challenges are different whether you buy something "ready-made" or newly broken, there are definitely challenges whichever route you take.
 
I've always bought babies to train but I know my limits and always buy native types. I like training youngsters although I'm not as young as I was and not as confident. I currently have a youngster who's coming on well though, looking forward to the summer to do more with him. I wouldn't like to buy a made horse unless I'd known it really well for a long time.
 
I'm definitely in the "train it" camp. I have always found it incredibly rewarding to bring on and train horses, and seeing their progress. I helped bring on a couple of youngsters/problem ponies for my riding school when I was about 8 and thought it was the best thing ever (even when I got dumped on the floor 6 times in an hour :D ) I like buying something younger and more of a blank slate, because I know that I like my horses to go a certain way, and with a youngster you can teach them like that from the start, rather than spending longer unpicking someone elses mistakes. I know some horses are beautifully trained, but those types for what I want are way outside of my budget, so it's more of a choice of something younger or something "problematic". It's interesting that a lot of people are saying you can improve your riding more on a schoolmaster, but I feel like my riding has improved so much from training my own. I suppose that it's more an issue if you're training your own and don't have someone on the ground to correct where you're going wrong with your riding? Though saying that, I'd absolutely love the opportunity for a lesson (or a few!) on a real schoolmaster to see what everything should ideally feel like!

Rosie was my first real "train it' and we had a lot of ups and downs but I wouldn't have changed it for the world. I definitely fall into the wobbly amateur category, especially at the time when I was a 14yo moving off my first pony! Together we went from going round like a giraffe and not being able to canter a circle in dressage, being taken off with and having every single fence down SJ, a stage where she refused to jump at all even poles on the ground, another stage where she bucked all the time... to eventually Novice dressage, affiliated eventing at 90, unaffiliated at 1m, clear SJ rounds at 90/1m, the best hunter you could ask for, completely safe and a pleasure on the flat at home (as in, you could chuck a complete novice on and she'd happily potter around with them)... I learnt an awful lot with her because she forced me to ride properly, as she was quite happy to make her opinions on your riding known! I also learnt a lot with her working through her issues on the ground. Knowing what I know now, I have no doubt we could have made more progress more quickly, but at the same time I wouldn't be the rider I am now without that journey. I have so many photos and videos of our journey, and looking back on them makes me so proud.

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Most of you already know about my current "train it" in progress, Henry. He's very much still in progress, but we're getting there. I'm enjoying the journey with him too, especially as the challenges he's throwing at me are so different to what I had with Rosie, but I still feel I can apply the things I learned with her to him (especially the patience part :D ). Again, I feel my riding has improved through working with him, because he's forgiving and willing but sensitive, so he needs to correct aids and support to do what I'm asking of him, but when I get it right I can immediately feel the difference! I'm sure we have plenty more ups and downs to come, as he's not always the easiest, but I'm hoping that the fact he had a good start and his good temperament means we'll get there in the end. We've already gone from can't trot a circle and can't canter for more than 5 strides to prelim dressage placings, and from can't jump and has never been XC to jumping hedges out hunting and training over 90-95cm SJ and XC. Competing is a work in progress, jumping in a competition atmosphere and in a different ring to your new best friends is scary when you're Henry :p
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