Buy it or train it?

I've had both - a few years ago now I had a schoolmaster eventer who had started off with Oli Townend, he was an absolute machine and we had so much fun including THE best XC round I have EVER had in my life :D :D I bought him incredibly cheaply for various reasons and doubled my money when I sold him, much to the chagrin of the eventer who had sold him to me. His main downside was that he was 17.2hh and I am 5'2" :D but he was a total gentleman so it never mattered!

I currently have an amazingly green sports cob who I would never have taken on if I'd realise what a massive task he was going to be. I get despondent regularly but am hugely lucky to have two top level trainers to help me and kick me up the backside and I am so excited about the future with him.

For me each have their advantages, can't say I would go for one over the other really
 
Good point re distinction between train the horse or train the rider. As people have said, obv both routes require both, but having a schoolmaster would for me mean much more train the rider. I wonder which I'd find easier!

Currently it's a bit of train us both, which is what sometimes causes our blips or slower progress. That said, I chuck a whole load of training and effort into getting through these, and with experienced help we've not had any *major* setbacks yet (currently feeling much better about our jumping, so am really pleased that I feel like this now).
 
The biggest challenge I had, when figuring out how to ride Alf, was not that he was tricky, or trained in a different way to what I was used to, but the simple fact that the person who started him and trained him to advanced is about 6 inches shorter than me - so he was used to the aids being applied a lot higher up than I can. We compromised - I ride a bit shorter on him than I would normally, and he (mostly) interprets my aids and does what I ask him. It's always interesting to watch a shorter rider on him, because even a green rider gets an easier ride from him than I did when we first got together!
 
This reminds me a bit of the seven stages of man :)

My lifecycle has been:

Too poor to buy trained.

Too penny pinching to buy trained.

No point in buying trained when I love training my own.

I'm waiting to see what the next stage might be. I'd love a GP trained horse, but can't afford one, and in any case I wonder how long I would love it for, as I still thrive on seeing changes in the horse. If anyone wants a barefoot rehab done on one, payment being to leave the horse with me for six months after it's sound, please let me know!
 
I would love to be able to buy a trained horse to have some fun and learn from, if I had the money I’d have an eventer and a dressage horse, and a youngster to bring on. But I don’t have that sort of money, so it’s just a distant dream...

I got my current horse (21yo) as a green 5yo and have very much enjoyed the journey we’ve been on together, I’ve learnt so much that I can take with me onto the next horse (whenever that will be). I do get a lot of comments about how it must be nice to have such a well schooled horse, but of course he wasn’t like that when I bought him :wink3:
 
Bit of both, if possible. Interesting how many people have NEVER ridden a trained (or schoolmaster, if you like) horse and have had to train their own. I am very, very lucky to have had the benefit of riding many schoolmaster horses and this has meant that all those babies I've trained have received the wisdom of their educated forbears.

It's lovely to train your own, but you will be in a much better position to make that process happier for the horse if you know what you are doing.
 
Cortez said:
Bit of both, if possible. Interesting how many people have NEVER ridden a trained (or schoolmaster, if you like) horse and have had to train their own. I am very, very lucky to have had the benefit of riding many schoolmaster horses and this has meant that all those babies I've trained have received the wisdom of their educated forbears.

It's lovely to train your own, but you will be in a much better position to make that process happier for the horse if you know what you are doing.
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Agree. I owe pretty much everything I know to a little old stallion who was my teacher when I first went out to Germany. He had all the Haute Ecole moves, as well as the GP dressage ones, and had to be ridden absolutely correctly, or he did nothing. The first week there, I couldn't even get him to trot (or even walk in a straight line!). He was the most unforgiving horse I've ever ridden, but I learned more from him in the three months I rode him (until I was deemed competent enough to ride the others) than I've learned from any two legged trainer. I also fell off over his tail several times, because he had been taught to sit down from piaffe!
I probably could have muddled my way through training Aussie to the level I did, but the process was far more simple because of what Schnuppi had taught me. Knowing what perfection should feel like is really helpful when trying to achieve it!
 
There aren't many really well trained horses like that around though, are there? When I was doing BHS exams even the stage 4 horses were not that nice to ride... and that place has closed now as have many riding schools/training centres. I can think of a couple of places within about a 2 hour drive where "schoolmasters" are available - it's not very accessible and the cost would be difficult to accomodate for many people on a regular basis.

I loved riding the schoolmaster at AM Dressage, he was not an easy ride for the reasons mentioned above, highlighted any and all of the rider's weaknesses. But great fun and fab to feel how to ride the advanced work on a horse that knew the job.
 
I've done a bit of both in the wrong order! Second pony was totally green and so was I-only reason we didn't come to grief was because I had an excellent instructor, and my pony was extremely kind and tried hard even when she didn't understand what to do! Next pony was a champion WH pony I bought for his exceptional temperament-so school master in the sense that to jump he is totally point and shoot, and has a wonderful, sensible temperament. Downside being I don't jump... so he was retrained to become a dressage pony! So we had to teach him 'dressage' from scratch, but it's much easier IMO to do that with an already established, sensible horse who had a decent level of schooling already. 6 years with him has made me a much better rider because he rewards you when you ask properly, and is extremely willing to work with you. Next one will hopefully be somewhere in the middle-established at elementary dressage with ability to move up the levels, but I'm unlikely to be able to afford a third for a while. So my plan is once I stop competing my pony, to find a schoolmaster share to teach me more until I get another!
 
Lévrier;13709403 said:
I've had both - a few years ago now I had a schoolmaster eventer who had started off with Oli Townend, he was an absolute machine and we had so much fun including THE best XC round I have EVER had in my life :D :D I bought him incredibly cheaply for various reasons and doubled my money when I sold him, much to the chagrin of the eventer who had sold him to me. His main downside was that he was 17.2hh and I am 5'2" :D but he was a total gentleman so it never mattered!

I currently have an amazingly green sports cob who I would never have taken on if I'd realise what a massive task he was going to be. I get despondent regularly but am hugely lucky to have two top level trainers to help me and kick me up the backside and I am so excited about the future with him.

For me each have their advantages, can't say I would go for one over the other really
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He wasn’t a liver chestnut called Larry was he?
 
milliepops said:
There aren't many really well trained horses like that around though, are there?
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Indeed. We seem to have low standards in this country - most of the international trainers I've known / spoken to / observed teach say exactly the same thing as Cortez.
 
Abi90 said:
He wasn’t a liver chestnut called Larry was he?
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Sadly no, he was the most gorgeous dark bay Selle Francais called Josh (Ikor de Kersalic). Our BE record is uninspiring but I jumped 1m 15 on him which I never dreamed I would do, and our BE100 XC round at Monmouth was the best few minutes of my entire life...... :) :)
 
Lévrier;13709829 said:
Sadly no, he was the most gorgeous dark bay Selle Francais called Josh (Ikor de Kersalic). Our BE record is uninspiring but I jumped 1m 15 on him which I never dreamed I would do, and our BE100 XC round at Monmouth was the best few minutes of my entire life...... :) :)
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Ah just wondered as there is a 17.2hh ex eventer that Ollie Townend had at Mynott old yard. Lovely horse he is
 
JFTD said:
Indeed. We seem to have low standards in this country - most of the international trainers I've known / spoken to / observed teach say exactly the same thing as Cortez.
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I think we do have them about, but not often offered for lessons - generally you get the opportunity when knocking around as a working pupil or similar.

In any case, training on a schoolmaster is like learning a set of tricks, along with the musculature, body control and timing to perform the tricks correctly. It's like learning to drive a car fast. But there's a big difference between that and developing a consistent relationship with your own schoolmaster, or training up another.

As for the happiness of the horse being trained - I have met many an unhappy horse trained by someone with all the right training/education, and many a happy horse who was trained by an amateur. As attractive as it is to think that there is a solid gold 'right' way to do things, I'm not sure it is so black and white.
 
I have done both, pretty much concurrently-- although the 'buy' is a share. Honestly - they're both hard work and I've needed alot of professional help to get us to where we are. I was quite naive when I bought my 'train' it, I was comfortable in my abilities when I bought her but reached rock bottom this time last year. Fortunately I found an amazing instructor who has got us back on track but even so we still have such a long way to go.
I'd echo it is nice to have 2 on the go though- usually 1 is going better than the other which helps you stay positive.
I have to say though, i'd quite like to ride something in between the 2 extremes, to remind myself what normal is!
 
I trained my last one and it’s been been the most rewarding thing I’ve ever done.

I’d had an excellent schoolmaster and spent a year as a working pupil where I helped back a couple of horses. I then worked freelance for a year before I bought my mare.

I wanted a horse I would never outgrow talent/ambition wise as I’m rubbish at selling. Obviously there was no gurrantee a youngster I bought would be up for the job but that was my intention. I also didn’t want (or could!) spend 15k+ on a horse.

So I bought my mare 4.5 years ago. We havn’t gotten as far as I’d of liked by now - she didn’t grow into herself until she was 7 so I took 2.5 years to get her eventing properly. Our first proper season was interrupted by a gap when she had ulcers and her sacroiliac injected although we finished that season at be100, then the following spring we had a horse fall xc schooling which destroyed my confidence and fed on to her and we had a rubbish season but managed to pull it back by the end with a few wins.

I love her to bits. Everything she does, I know I produced that. She’s now working at medium dressage at home and doing well BD, even though I doubt we will reach the dizzying heights I envisioned when I bought her given my lost confidence, she has scope to burn and just the fact I’ve created this lovely, well schooled, obedient horse despite the fact she can be as hot as hellfire is frankly the best thing I’ve ever done.

Until i’m Ancient I will never buy a backed horse again.
 
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DabDab said:
As for the happiness of the horse being trained - I have met many an unhappy horse trained by someone with all the right training/education, and many a happy horse who was trained by an amateur. As attractive as it is to think that there is a solid gold 'right' way to do things, I'm not sure it is so black and white.
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I read 'happier' in that post as 'less confused!' In that respect I agree that better riders make far better trainers and the horses probably appreciate it greatly.

With Amber I think she is happy in general. I have no doubt that were she with a professional she would be far further on in terms of raw performance. My YO's daughter used to work for a professional showjumper's yard and they had all their 4 & 5 year olds going round British Novice - no faffing around with building things up slowly. But I think given the choice they might prefer a slightly slower learning curve?

But I am acutely aware that I irritate Amber because I am so 'noisy' as a rider. I still balance on my hands, I lose balance when she jumps big, I tighten up and bounce around and give poor quality cues. That must be so annoying for her.

My daughter's pony was a 'schoolmaster' in the sense that if you wobbled too much he'd chuck you off. He HATED unbalanced riders. Amber is much more forgiving!
 
On the schoolmaster point, I agree that they're aren't many great horses readily available to ride, share or buy for that matter. For me, I don't feel I need to do that at the moment, for my level of riding and what I want to do.

F seems perfectly happy pootling along doing what we're doing and i doubt he cares that he *could* be miles better. As long as my patience and confidence holds out, we'll do ok. it's not like he's not getting a good education, although it's perhaps a bit more basic as a result. But that makes him a very straightforward RC type and as noted on other threads, that's very sought after so I don't feel like I'm letting him down.
 
Bernster said:
it's not like he's not getting a good education, although it's perhaps a bit more basic as a result. But that makes him a very straightforward RC type and as noted on other threads, that's very sought after so I don't feel like I'm letting him down.
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But actually - I think that's really important. A good horse isn't necessarily a trained schoolmaster with all the fun buttons. What most people really need early in their riding careers (or after breaks, or after having issues or for about a million other reasons) is a well trained, genuine, kind horse who deals with life in a straightforward way. I think those sorts of horses are lacking from the market.

One thing I've noticed is that when watching freelancers / local instructors helping very novice owners with their horses is that they focus on training the horse to look "pretty" - nose tucked in etc - rather than training the horse and owner to deal with "life" generally and just work sensibly / deal with the odd flappy amateur / respond to the aids and just get on with it.
 
Riding something that went correctly made a big difference to what I went back home and did with my own, he loved me coming back and saying Frank, what you do isn't correct bend at all, we have to do it like this :D. It was an amazing experience and great to realise I could ride that too, especially hotter off the leg horses when my own just isn't! But there definitely aren't that many horses available to have lessons on and even fewer people happy to let you lose on them as a relatively lower level amateur rider.

I do wish that earlier on in our relationship someone had concentrated on me first and ignored what the horse was doing a bit more.
 
Yes, that's a good point I think the balance between training the horse and training the rider can be hard for a lot of trainers/instructors to get right. I think that's possibly why having a pro to ride alongside a fairly rider focused trainer can work quite well
 
ester said:
I do wish that earlier on in our relationship someone had concentrated on me first and ignored what the horse was doing a bit more.
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This very much! And what JFTD is saying. I'm so grateful to have such a forgiving horse, who really tries for me, although occasionally we are a bit too similar and we get into a bit of a pickle!

So much of training, in my experience, seems to be about that last quick fix to get the horse to look like it's going correctly. Whilst I've learned some great stuff along the way, recently my lessons have focussed far more on me and how im influencing F and on unpicking and starting over in terms of his way of going. We've had some amazing lightbulb moments as a result (and a 10%increase in score when I last ventured out to stressage!).
 
Train it for me. I love the challenge of either breaking and schooling or getting an unwanted ‘problem’ pony and having success with them.
 
I don't think that trainer was particularly quick fixy, I just thing she thought I was an ok rider and we could skip a few things/that I would pick it up as we went along improving him. I remember discovering the outside rein with that person but that was fluke (but I don't think she realised that I didn't understand it) we definitely came on plenty well in that time from nothing to good novice tests but actually when a few arguably very simple things were broken down for me by a FBHS later on it made a huge difference to my riding and will stay with me.
But whether I would have totally got that in the first place I'm not sure, but definitely would have been helpful earlier! I was a RS kid who only really started to ride properly when I got mine when I was 21. I don't think I had any feel at that point.

If/before I get another I will be looking for someone to do the same thing with my jumping, I had found someone then the pony went lame and once rehabbed was too old to worry too much about it!
 
If Im really honest I would probably rather buy it and just crack on. But can't afford to! Fortunately hubby likes to train it. Besides when I tried to buy it (out of work nearly veteran, so cheaper!) I ended up retraining it anyway. I only bought her as a hack to be fair but got sucked into schooling her so maybe I like to train it more than I think.
 
I've always had horses to bring on as we could never afford to buy an established one. My first horse was bought from a dealer, supposedly 5 yo but actually only 3 yo :eek: Before him I'd had a pony who was 6 yo but I outgrew him in 9 months so he had to be sold on. The horse was a steep learning curve especially as I was only 12 but I had a lot of support from my instructor and through Pony Club. Although far from an ideal scenario on paper in the long run it worked out ok, I did all PC activities on him, representing my branch for sj and eventing, we also dabbled in team chasing with friends before focussing on show jumping where he was very sucessful competing at HOYS for the Foxhunter final, National Grade B Championship and many other finals. He ended up Grade A, jumping International Trials - not bad as he was only 15hh! Everything else I've competed has also been young but this one was definitely my horse of a lifetime.

My son also only ever had youngsters, from his first pony onwards he's never had anything more than a 5 yo. Again he learnt with them with a lot of help and support. He competed sucessfully in junior BS with his home produced ponies and with horses did some BS and then turned to BE as well as PC championships in all 3 disciplines, his main horse went from a green 5yo to a 2* eventer.

Both of us achieved this at a relatively young age and that perhaps was a key factor, when you're young you don't over analyse things and worry about being perfect. We both enjoyed our horses but lacked financial backing bar for a short time when my son jumped ponies for an owner. I'm sure buying a schoolmaster would have perhaps allowed us both to achieve things more quickly but there's nothing like the bond you build up bringing a horse on yourself and what you learn on your journey. Neither of us ride much now but both are confident in working through problems with less than perfect horses or youngsters, skills we perhaps wouldn't have picked up with schoolmasters. Of course we needed help and support along the way as well as patience and perseverance and perhaps we were lucky to have talented horses.
 
I was always in the "train it" camp as could never afford to buy anything else really.
A financial windfall a couple of years ago enabled my to buy a schoolmistress type who was working at Med/advanced Med. The difference she made to my riding was remarkable. She was well trained but I still had to learn how to ride her properly and thoroughly enjoyed every minute. All the stuff I learned with her I have put into practice with my other horse whom has always been a bit tricky on the flat and he has since come on leaps and bounds.
Sadly I lost her just before Christmas with an aneurysm leaving me heartbroken. However her legacy has me actively looking for a similar type to carry on where I left off.
 
ester said:
If/before I get another I will be looking for someone to do the same thing with my jumping, I had found someone then the pony went lame and once rehabbed was too old to worry too much about it!
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One of my strongest memories is the first time I sat on an ex international show jumper, who was also a cocky know-it-all of a horse (always blamed on him being half Welsh :p) at the age of about 16 - never before had I felt such an ineffectual passenger on a horse. I just remember thinking that this was the coolest horse I had ever met
 
I much prefer to do it myself. Ive had three who were sold to me as "schoolmasters" years ago and they weren't - two had attitudes and made my life hell although I would say the other one was, he was lovely. But when Ive bought 4 or 5yo's who are unbacked or haven't done much then at least they can't be damaged in any way generally and I can bring them on how I want. I love doing it, in fact I get bored once they are established! I get far more satisfaction introducing them to their firsts of things like eventing etc. and when they go well its just the best thing. I wouldnt like to buy readymade, too much chance for them to go downhill with me and my ways ha ha! If they're not much to begin with, they can only go up IMO! As with anything though, it totally depends on the horse. A really genuine nice temperament and attitude is everything for me nowadays.
 
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