Buying horses from pro's for ametuer riders?

bigboyrocky

bigboyrocky

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What are your thoughts on this?
Ive done my first day of work experience at Austin O'connors today (and loved it :D) and have also been looking at lots of pro's websites/videos, and i cant understand why people looking for horses even bother looking through ads, when all the best horses are sat there with pros, that have all been started off well!

Now, i will be looking for a horse in a few months when Rocky is sold, and when hes gone, we will be asking to see a few of Austins horses and if none suit then will go to other yards i have in mind.

Can anyone think of a reason why this isnt often the case - ametuers buying from pro's?
Different environment?
Temprament?
Suitability?

Just wondering reallys as it seems to me like the one and only option now! Things advertised seem to be stupid money, and not nearly half as well schooled.

Thoughts please :)
 
From personal experience I would be wary as pro's horses tend to be less "forgiving" of riders mistakes as they've been schooled to do exactly what they're told when they're told and unless you've got a pros ability to see a stride you may find it difficult to ride a pros horse, also need the pros ability to prevent problems on the flat rather than they react to them as they tend to read situations much faster than even the very best amateur.

There's also potentially the rather large price tag that would be attached to a horse sold by a pro!
 
We bought Bonnie from a pro. It did help that we are on her yard and had known the horse for a couple of years. She was beautifully produced by our YO, who also bred her, and who also owned her mother (sadly deceased). If you look on L's facebook page you will see loads of pictures of her. YO was about to enter her at Novice in Solihull when we decided to buy from her just over 2 years ago. She had been ridden by YO to PN level and also by YO's business partner, who is a 4* rider.

To be fair she was probably a bit too much horse for a 13 year old at the tine, but she has regular lessons, plus a lot of help from our YO (who also evented to intermediate level), and help from her business partner as well. She hasnt given us a day's problem, apart from her being a bit accident prone, and she was well worth the five figure sum I paid. On top of that she has the most fantastic temperament and is not at all marish.

We shall be looking for another horse next year - not sure if we will sell or Bonnie or keep her - it depends on finances really. I will be definitely be buying another one from YO and her partner- we wont be looking anywhere else . PM me if you want further details as would definitely recommend both of them.

OK, we did pay a lot of money, but on the other hand she is very, very classy, very pretty and talented and sometimes you do get what you pay for. I dont regret it for one minute for all the happiness and enjoyment she has brought us.
 
I'd be wary of buying from a pro. High price tags, difficult sometimes to follow in a pro's footsteps. Look at some of the records of horses which have previously been ridden by pros then sold on to amateurs, often they struggle to achieve the same records. Don't forget pros know all the tricks of the trade!!
 
I would never buy from a pro- I know far too many people in my PC who have bought a proffesionally backed/brought on horse and as soon as they buy it (for a very overpriced amount!!) it goes down hill and starts getting eliminated at intro. Far better to buy a horse produced by an amateur- they will be used to occasional mistakes made by the rider, and wont rely on you 100% to get the stride right for everything.
 
Cost, you do pay more when buying from I pro. I worked for a Pro for a while although they were all lovely types I think the prices were inflated as you were buying from the 'name'.
Also I think you have to consider the type and amount of work you can provide. On a pro yard they get lots of high quality work and constant stimulation most amateurs need a horse that can perform of the back of a lots less than that. I'd be more confident knowing that the horse I was buying was already doing well under similar conditions to the ones it'd experience with me.
 
Personally my concern would be that if it is being ridden by a pro and getting X results it isn't going to realistically get those straight away with me, couple that with the fact a lot of these horses will have points then you end up with a situation where you cannot be competitive at the level you and the horse, as a combination, are competent and confident at.


That said when I have sold a few and am in a position to buy one I wouldn't discount one with a pro :).
 
Hmmm i can see the point about the horses being less forgiving, and also about following in pro's footprints, but the latter realy wouldnt bother me at all. RE: the hroses being less forgiving... i think you can get round this by choosing very wisely. We brough Rocky as a 16.2h 4yo, when i was 11yo. And he has never stopped with me due to a dodgey stride, ever. When we brought him, we knew Robin who broke him, so he knew i wasnt ready for a fizzy, unforgiving horse, purely due to my age. And i think aslong as you know what you want, tell them that you need something that is forgiving, then i think it is possible to get a forgiving horse from a pro. Or maybe we were just lucky?
 
MegaBeast said:
From personal experience I would be wary as pro's horses tend to be less "forgiving" of riders mistakes as they've been schooled to do exactly what they're told when they're told and unless you've got a pros ability to see a stride you may find it difficult to ride a pros horse, also need the pros ability to prevent problems on the flat rather than they react to them as they tend to read situations much faster than even the very best amateur.

There's also potentially the rather large price tag that would be attached to a horse sold by a pro!
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This exactly! I tried a very nice horse at a pros yard, Now I wouldn't say im a bad rider but being 16 im still learning and haven't experienced half the amount many people have. But anyway this horse had only ever been ridden by a pro and when I got on with my not so perfect position, slightly shakey hands etc the horse just thought 'OMG WHAT IS HAPPENING' sort of thing. Im not saying all horses will be like this, but many are especially if they have only ever had one rider IMO. Im not against buying horses from pros at all though.. infact I just bought a horse from one!
Also sometimes I think if the horse was that special etc wouldn't they keep the horse for themself? Ok they probably have their reasons but always makes me wonder :rolleyes:
And IMO not all the best horses are sat with the pros.... I have a pretty special boy sitting at home :p;)
 
I'd have to say I think you were lucky. Dare I say a lot of pros wouldn't really know if a horse was forgiving or not as they've probably not put it in a situation to find out! Most horses will jump from any spot, but one that has been established to only jump from the correct spot will probably have its confidence rattled even if it's only fractionally off. Not a judgement on your riding at all, just something to be wary of. I'm yet to hear of any real success stories of people who've bought from pros... please someone tell one!

Seriously though, the other aspect to consider is that the ones the pros sell are those that won't make the grade, or those that have shown some talent, been pushed too far too soon too fast to make a quick sale without getting the basics right (my mare) and been rattled in the process.
 
I think it depends on what you are looking to do

a friend of mine bought a horse and because it was schooled every day in bungee reins and they dont do that they've had a lot of problems with soundness issues. However saying that it has given her confidence, but this was a level it was confident competing at.

Looking at records of horses who have been N/I and go back down to 90/100 they dont seem to do so well - seeing a lot of SJ/XC problems and inflated dressage scores.

I - personally - wouldn't buy from a big name because they ride so many horses a day they know how to push their buttons whereas most of us have one or maybe two to ride a day and know a horse a lot better than pros [im not saying all pros are like this but know of a few who are] A amateur i find tends to produce a horse more carefully. But im not sterotyping either brand - this is from what i have experienced!
 
I would definitely buy a young horse from a pro - they've been started competently, they've had a routine, been taught some manners. Not all pros are equal and some of the male riders would be a very tough act to follow but a good pro, with a good eye for a horse and a good way of producing them would be more than fine.

I think people think that if it's being sold on, it must not be the sort to go all the way. That might be true but actually not many pros can afford to run horses to top level all by themselves so they have to sell.
 
kit279 said:
I would definitely buy a young horse from a pro - they've been started competently, they've had a routine, been taught some manners. Not all pros are equal and some of the male riders would be a very tough act to follow but a good pro, with a good eye for a horse and a good way of producing them would be more than fine.
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My reasons exactly!! :D This is exactly why we brought Rocky.

Btw, i would not be looking at something that had done much.. PN/N max, as i want to do it myself, i just want soemthing with the groundings.
 
Oh dear, we are in the minority here. I have to say I can highly recommend it. My daughter had a huge learning curve with her new horse (who is only 15.2hh, and was step up from a 14.2hh pony), but she seemed to cope pretty well. It was a big ask, but she qualified for the PC Nationals at National Novice level within 2 months of owning her with a big win at Area. She also got a few placings at PC eventing, ok it was only up to 2 foot 9, plus she did a couple of intros and one of them was a placing in her first year with the horse. She did very well at BE90 and BE100 last year with several placings and a win, and she has now just got her first placing at Novice, plus some points.

Its been a lot of hard work, she has had to learn to ride accurately and give precise aids. However, its been helped by the fact that or YO who bred her has helped her immeasurably as we did not move from the yard. Its also made her a much better rider,plus she has a fantastic partnership with the mare, who really responded well to being in a one to one partnership with her rider.

Again would recommend it, but would only buy from YO and her business partner as I know how they are produced (both ladies I would add and sympathetic riders both of them).
 
TheoryX1 said:
Oh dear, we are in the minority here. I have to say I can highly recommend it. My daughter had a huge learning curve with her new horse (who is only 15.2hh, and was step up from a 14.2hh pony), but she seemed to cope pretty well. It was a big ask, but she qualified for the PC Nationals at National Novice level within 2 months of owning her with a big win at Area. She also got a few placings at PC eventing, ok it was only up to 2 foot 9, plus she did a couple of intros and one of them was a placing in her first year with the horse. She did very well at BE90 and BE100 last year with several placings and a win, and she has now just got her first placing at Novice, plus some points.

Its been a lot of hard work, she has had to learn to ride accurately and give precise aids. However, its been helped by the fact that or YO who bred her has helped her immeasurably as we did not move from the yard. Its also made her a much better rider,plus she has a fantastic partnership with the mare, who really responded well to being in a one to one partnership with her rider.

Again would recommend it, but would only buy from YO and her business partner as I know how they are produced (both ladies I would add and sympathetic riders both of them).
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Definatley. Ive learnt so much from Rocky.. yes it didnt go to plan with the eventing, but i wouldnt change the past even if i could, because the experience ive gained is immeasurable.

Im sticking with my guns on this one i think, and will go straight to a few of the pro's i know :) (Will ask for yout YOs number when the time comes!)
 
The problem I have found when I was trying was although the horse had learnt all the basics and manners, they had been taught it so proffessionally with little mistakes. When an amatuer does get on and does make a mistake or has a slightly off position (lets face it no one has a completely perfect position) the horse gets confused/reacted more than a horse produced by an amatuer because it is not used to it, ok this doesn't always happen and it does depend on the horse. Im sure once you start trying though you might notice the differences for yourself.
 
RomanyMayday said:
The problem I have found when I was trying was although the horse had learnt all the basics and manners, they had been taught it so proffessionally with little mistakes. When an amatuer does get on and does make a mistake or has a slightly off position (lets face it no one has a completely perfect position) the horse gets confused/reacted more than a horse produced by an amatuer because it is not used to it, ok this doesn't always happen and it does depend on the horse. Im sure once you start trying though you might notice the differences for yourself.
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See ive never found this. Ive worked for a pro in the past and ridden many of his horses who are all at different levels, and also today at austins, and have not had this reaction. I think the difference however is how effective an ametuer is compared to a pro. I think most pro horses would put up just fine with a half decent rider, but i think effectiveness will be the key factor that splits the two.
 
bigboyrocky said:
See ive never found this. Ive worked for a pro in the past and ridden many of his horses who are all at different levels, and also today at austins, and have not had this reaction. I think the difference however is how effective an ametuer is compared to a pro. I think most pro horses would put up just fine with a half decent rider, but i think effectiveness will be the key factor that splits the two.
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Well if you have never found this then im sure you will be fine, but its just from I and others I know have found. But I think too it depends on the pro, I found this with one pro but then with another (who I bought my horse from) I did not find this at all. Good luck with your search :)
 
No, did it once never again. I need a horse that can cope with Amateur moments - the average pro horse that has been ridden properly and placed at every fence and the horse has never had to think for itself can not cope with Amateur riders.

Pro horses also tend to be the ones that are sharp and need extra special riding to get the talent out of them.

When I look for a horse to buy I always look the rider up and if they have ridden at a high level I am put off. If it is in my price range they either have a rubbish record - in spite of the pro, or have a lurking medical issue.

I've seen a few ex-international horses with amatuers and its never been pretty. Of course as you are a decent rider I guess you won't have this problem that amateurs do
 
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MegaBeast said:
Seriously though, the other aspect to consider is that the ones the pros sell are those that won't make the grade, or those that have shown some talent, been pushed too far too soon too fast to make a quick sale without getting the basics right (my mare) and been rattled in the process.
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I couldnt agree more anything that has a future in eventing will either be kept or sold to people with a lot deeper pockets than the average amateur event rider.There are many young horses been pushed by pros and then sold on to unsuspecting and naive young riders were the horse never ever competes BE again as they have gone sour.I know a young rider local to me who had two such horses last year and they lost 12k on one and 9k on the other but they got so much enjoyment out of telling people who they had got the horses from.One horse was so bad even a highly regarded pro rider renowned for getting difficult horses around cross country got eliminated at the second fence.
You will get a lot better horse and something that actually increases in value from an amateur.You just need to be able to interpret its record to date.
 
I think you could probably buy just as good a horse from an amateur as from a pro! I've just bought myself a 2yr old from an 'amateur' breeder. He has fantastic bloodlines, and should, in theory, be a cracking eventer :D

I wouldn't be put off buying from a Pro, but I wouldn't just go looking for a Pro horse. I would keep my eyes open and read between the lines of everything you go and see! :D
 
I will buy from a pro- but only a minority of them!

firstly, they are usually hugely overpriced for the quality you are buying and you would get far more for your money from private ads.

secondly, i would be wary of taking on a horse that a male pro in particular had ridden. they have far, far more strength than you could ever have in your legs and if they ride with that strength you are never going to be able to match it.

yes, you could reschool the horse but then what is the point in paying the overinflated price for the professionally produced horse?

i would buy a youngster from a pro without hesitation but would pick the pro very carefully if i wanted something that had BE evented.
 
bigboyrocky - I think you are being a little, teeny bit arrogant, sorry!

Fact is you are riding these *pro* horses at home, they have a drilled routine. Have you been in charge of teaching them new tricks? Taking them up a level? Sorting them out?

The problems arise when new circumstances occur, or when you are out. I know some pro horses that look incredibly easy, but I know for a fact that those horses are being RIDDEN every step of the way round the course. Quite a few top horses are actually rather lacking in self confidence and it is only because they are put right at every fence that they say *OK, I'll jump*. I have sat on a lot of pro horses, indeed I worked for an International SJer, and when in their comfort zone the horses have all been pretty easy, I will give you that, but take them out of that drilled routine and there is a change.

The biggest difference between pro and amateur riding is reaction time. Pros ride for hours every day, even the best amateur, with one or two horses, will never be able to emulate the reaction time of a pro, or the finesse, which only comes from riding and riding and riding. I used to ride at least 3 horses a day, I would take catch rides, I could ride anything pretty much. These days I am nowhere near as good a rider, my reaction time is way slower and I know it and I have to accept there is nothing I can do about it.

Buying from a pro can be an expensive mistake - also bear in mind that if it all goes tits up you WILL lose money as you will have devalued the horse.
 
I have to say that I have had a positive experience with an ex-pro horse. Me and my sister bought Mazetto from a pro - he jumping 1.40m classes with a pro and we rode him in 1.30m classes as teenagers. Possibly as Weezy says though, 1.30m was so easy for him that it was within his comfort zone - he would have gone to 1.50m with a pro (but wasn't really quite careful enough to be a good horse for a pro). So in that sense I agree that perhaps an amateur could do well on a pro-horse on a lower level than what it has done previously.

Saying that though, I don't think I'd do it again with a jumping horse - now I am older I understand how little I know in comparison to a pro. Most scenarios I know of with amateurs buying horses from pro's don't end very well for all of the reasons stated by others.
 
I bought mine from a pro, she had been bred by somebody then sent there to sell. She is fab but not without her problems, as MegaBeast said, she was rushed through to sell and there were gaps in her education that I noticed. Would be wary to but from a pro again, wouldn't rule it out but I think I would as Hemirjtm says read between the lines.
 
in theory yes i would BUT (and its a big but!) it would totally depend on the pro! i think there is this huge problem that a lot of pros are so good that the horses then freak when an amateur does something stupid and amateur like :rolleyes: not all of them will but i think i would be wary of getting one that had done a lot of competing with a pro- a newly started horse would be a different matter.
if i had to buy another i would certainly buy THROUGH a pro though. V came via my SJ trainer as a friend of hers had bred him. He was unbroken and not much to look at but she knew both of his parents etc and found him for me (he wasn't advertised). he's absolutely everything i wanted so i would go back to her again. she advised me to get totally unbroken so that it wouldn't have been used to being ridden by a pro and it would have to be used to me and the mistakes i would make jumping. however, having said that, if she recommended a horse that HAD been ridden by a pro i would buy it because i trust her judgement- so i guess thats what i'm saying- i would, but only with very careful consideration. the huge price tag would put me off though... :confused:
 
Equus Leather said:
There's a reason the pros are selling these horses, they keep all the good ones!
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Yes but good in the pros eyes is to go to 4* or jump 1m50's + and the ametuer may not have the same ambition. Just because they are selling the horse doesn't mean it isn't going to be good just means it may not reach the above level. Does this matter to an ametuer? I wouldn't think many ametuers would be able to reach that level even if the horse had the ability would they? Just a thought. I would buy a horse from a pro if i was in it for the long haul but you are almost certain to lose money that way if you have to sell one within the first few years.
 
To add my 2 pence worth.

I think it really depends on the horse.

Our 2 old boys now sadly passed away were brought from a pro showjumper friend. The showjumper friend ended up with the ride on both of them because they were too tricky for their owners. 1 bucked but had a great jump and the pro jumped him in the newcomers final as a 6 yr old and came 2nd and he qualified for the foxhunter final the year after.
The 2nd horse was owned by what became a 4star event rider, he kept stopping with her on the XC so she gave him to the pro showjumper to sell. Both horses were around the 7/8 yr old mark so both had all the groundings from pro riders.

The pro rider said to my mum that both would suit her. My mum was jumping 2ft6 at the time! The pro gave my mum lessons on both horses when she got them and fist lesson she had on the first horse the pro had her jumping 1m20.

Anyway both horses were purchased and my mum clicked with both of them. She did BSJA on the first one and BE or British Horse Trials as it was then up to intermediate on the 2nd horse and prob would have gone further if it wasn't for her accident. She said that while not everybodys cup of tea her pro friend would not have advised she brought them if they weren't good.

We kept both horses untill they died in their 20's the first one even took me all through pony club as well so it can work.

Now my mum and I are bringing on our fab ex racers but my mum even said that bringing on her ex racer boy highlights how well trained the 2 old boys were when she got them and how she had sort of taken their training a bit for granted.

The pro showjumper they both were brought through was amazingly talented and always placed the horse perfectly but we never had any trouble with them if we got the stride wrong. The first one did have a stop in him if you rode him not to his standard shall we say, but it just made my mum and anyone else who rode him including myself buck our ideas up!

It worked really well. Not sure I'd buy from a pro I didn't know as I'd be worried that they would pass the rubbish ones off on to me! A lot of the horses are still quite young anyway, a 5yr old you could still make your mark on they just would have had a good grounding.
I'd also be wary about pro's selling for profit.. A phrase that came out of a pro rider I know 'I'm bringing this one on slowly as I'm keeping it for myself'. Makes u wonder when they are bringing a youngster on to sell doesn't it!!

I wouldn't buy a pro now as I love bringing on my talented racer but those two old Boys were worth their weight in gold and were once in a lifetime sort of horses.
 
IME, I think there are two types of horses that professional riders have for sale

1. Nice young sport horse types, with good temperaments and correct conformation. They have been broken well and given a good all round basic education (to a certain level). Because they have level headed temperaments, they probably don't have the "fire" to go to the top in whichever discipline and they have been picked specifically as "sellers" for the rider to earn a living from. These horses won't be cheap but will be fantastic for an amateur to ride, compete and have as an own horse.

2. Ex mid to top level competition horses who through various reasons (soundness, temperament, poor management) have found it necessary to come back down one or several levels as they're not coping at the level the pro wants to compete. These are the horses that you have to look at with extreme care - they're the ones that the pros thought good enough to keep :/ and while they may not be able to continue at that top level, they will still have the fire in their belly and the desire and ability to perform. These are the horses which give "buying from pros" a bad name when amateurs buy them and find they're overhorsed.

If I could afford it, and I wanted a really nice young horse to take out and compete successfully, knowing it had had a good start in life, then I would go to a pro.

You also have to realise that the sellers get ridden by every WP and member of staff available - the pros (particularly during the busy competition season) tend to ride the competition horses as a priority. These young horses will have been ridden by people who make mistakes!
 
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