Calling all hoof experts

Quoted
Worst of all for me though is that they do not conduct themselves professionally. The track livery who promotes their methods made a post about 'karma' when a farrier she argued with online got injured recently. To me that is completely unacceptable, even if you don't share the same views as someone, you should not mock that they got hurt on your professional page.


This childlike behaviour is what totally put me off following their Facebook page. Also videos of her putting makeup on 🙈
 
Boulty said:
Not an expert so just musing. It can’t be denied that the approach of the track livery currently advocating this method has managed to bring about a return to soundness in several horses with fairly awful feet who this hadn’t been the case with their previous regime. A lot of the farrier work on them doesn’t look great so can understand how seeing that on a regular basis may lead one to start tarring all farriers with the same brush if you’re continually seeing the worst of their work.

As a lot of these horses have a complete overhaul of their diet & management as well as a change in their trim approach I guess it’s hard to say how much contribution each individual element is having. (Well I mean obviously it’s the combination off all elements together)

I suppose there’s then the question that the vast majority of laminitis cases that end up going down this road are the ones traditional methods haven’t worked for whereas clearly there’s a large number of horses traditional methods DO work for. (Although I still don’t agree with shoes for “support” when there’s some fantastic hoof boot & pad solutions out there although can appreciate not an option for all horses & all owners) The question would be WHY do things go so badly wrong in some horses and not in others? Is it a case of lack of competence / lack of experience by the trimmer/ farrier, wrong diet, wrong management? Or a little bit of all these things?

As I’ve had a horse go to Rockley I’m vaguely familiar with the theory of not chopping toe off where you’ve got a weak back of foot to avoid laming horse/ not trimming past the white line / that if you make improvements in management that give you a better angle of growth not rushing to take the toe off won’t ruin that healthier growth and I personally know a decent number of horses this has worked for. (Will admit my Welsh D always tended towards an unideal foot shape in terms of toe length in front but he had PPID and my own research suggested that can be a contributing factor.)

Obviously it’s not an ideal situation long term in a foot that’s not recovering from pathology/ it’s definitely not a foot shape we should be aiming for in a healthy foot as of course the way it affects breakover could cause compensations elsewhere in the body over time. (Although if it’s a temporary thing whilst growing out damage it’s probably not going to cause lasting issues)

I’m not a member of the group in question but from what people who are have told me / what I’ve seen shared I’d agree with another poster’s assessment that it’s a mix of useful stuff and nonsense (eg I don’t agree with the assertion that horses on a hay only diet won’t be at risk of deficiencies) and that it does seem a bit culty (Although I’ve deffo sat laughing around a campfire joking about being in a sinister barefoot cult before so I probably shouldn’t judge on that!)
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I don't think anyone is too unhappy about the track idea. There are 3 main problems to my mind

firstly is the toe chopping. The problem seems to be laminitics (from what I have read so far) and duck feet. This is nothing like Rockley leaving the toes (which were never that long in their pics) until the back of t he foot beefs up. This problem is massively long duck feet. The entire wedge is left. I was very shocked when I saw some of their pics advocating this and praising such a trim.

In relatively normal feet "toe chopping" can only sound emotive. "bring the toes back with trimming and working on preventing the feet running forward" doesn't sound to be such an exciting headline. TP posted an excellent pic of failing to do this.

Next problem is that no one can criticise them. The only place is on their FB groups and I'm sure you would get slung off with a lot of abuse hurled at you. That means they can hide behind their SM unchallenged.

Third problem is the cult and this is the most dangerous. We went through this 25 years ago with Strasser. Her nonsense lasted so long and horses got damaged simply because of the cult. This cult is the same the only difference was with Strasser those trying to stop it were just ordinary horse owners. Now we have experienced farriers with good reputations as far as BF trimming goes confirming it is wrong. So who do we think is right?


Most of the followers have little idea. They can comment on living conditions/feed and management in the way we do on here. A lot of that is commonsense or posters own personal methods. Few of them understand the intricacies of trimming. Of a good hoof, or a bad one or one on which the trimmer has had to compromise for whatever reason for the horse's welfare. Even less have experience of trimming laminitics.
Then there is the problem of their leader who has to be supported against attack and praised at all costs. They have, technically, no idea if their leader is right or wrong but that is of no consequence. Go on their FB group as a newbie, say the right things and the followers will make you very welcome. You will be one of them, you won't feel lonely any longer but part of the "gang"

Finally of course they are producing "trained" trimmers.
 
Just asking for a “friend” and generally just interested
The people that run this track system
Are they qualified at anything
Nutritional or horses hoof care ?
 
There's a post on the TPW group now of the feet of a horse owned by someone following the 'method' who says they have done all the challenges (15 and 10 days seems silly, hoof rehab takes months if not years) which are really quite horrifying.
(I am horrifically nosy, so I was prompted to rejoin from this thread).
Not going to post a screenshot from a closed group however.
but the group is called The Phoenix Way: Path 2 Hoof Health
I'm far, far from a hoof expert and more than happy to leave it in the hands of a qualified farrier but I just can't imagine the forces higher up the limb from having such long toes can be good, not to mention comfortable, for an animal as heavy as a horse. :confused: yes every horse is going to have its own set point of hoof shape, balance etc and interfering too much isn't going to be good but in a human-made environment - where horses can't self trim and travel huge distances to wear their feet down naturally, and due to supplemental feeding etc they can grow faster than a wild horse's anyway -I think leaving with no attempt at managing the toe growth is wrong.
It's almost opposite to Strasser in that that appeared to be trying to fit every horse's hooves into a very narrow 'ideal' shape whereas this is basically giving the feet (well, the toes and only the toes!!!!) free rein to find their own natural point regardless of the knock on effects of doing so on the rest of the body.

tl;dr just not convinced TPW has thought through that dragging persian slipper hooves about isn't nice for the animal.

(Again, not sure this says quite what I am trying to. But hopefully gives an idea of what the issues with the TPW 'method' might be).

edited for clarity
 
paddy555 said:
I don't think anyone is too unhappy about the track idea. There are 3 main problems to my mind

firstly is the toe chopping. The problem seems to be laminitics (from what I have read so far) and duck feet. This is nothing like Rockley leaving the toes (which were never that long in their pics) until the back of t he foot beefs up. This problem is massively long duck feet. The entire wedge is left. I was very shocked when I saw some of their pics advocating this and praising such a trim.

In relatively normal feet "toe chopping" can only sound emotive. "bring the toes back with trimming and working on preventing the feet running forward" doesn't sound to be such an exciting headline. TP posted an excellent pic of failing to do this.

Next problem is that no one can criticise them. The only place is on their FB groups and I'm sure you would get slung off with a lot of abuse hurled at you. That means they can hide behind their SM unchallenged.

Third problem is the cult and this is the most dangerous. We went through this 25 years ago with Strasser. Her nonsense lasted so long and horses got damaged simply because of the cult. This cult is the same the only difference was with Strasser those trying to stop it were just ordinary horse owners. Now we have experienced farriers with good reputations as far as BF trimming goes confirming it is wrong. So who do we think is right?


Most of the followers have little idea. They can comment on living conditions/feed and management in the way we do on here. A lot of that is commonsense or posters own personal methods. Few of them understand the intricacies of trimming. Of a good hoof, or a bad one or one on which the trimmer has had to compromise for whatever reason for the horse's welfare. Even less have experience of trimming laminitics.
Then there is the problem of their leader who has to be supported against attack and praised at all costs. They have, technically, no idea if their leader is right or wrong but that is of no consequence. Go on their FB group as a newbie, say the right things and the followers will make you very welcome. You will be one of them, you won't feel lonely any longer but part of the "gang"

Finally of course they are producing "trained" trimmers.
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You write wise words.
A perfect description.
I’ve not been following this thread and others for mental health reasons. 😵‍💫.
I’ve kept well away from their ridiculous teaching.
 
I have been sitting on the fence for months now and having two horses with totally different feet; one being a draught that has superb 'rock crunching' feet and the other a TB that I have recently taken the shoes off (came to me shod) I have struggled with how to proceed with the TB in terms of which trimmer to use. I follow lots of different groups, all promoting different styles of trim. My stance on it that I will take the bits I like from all of these and apply what works for my individual horses. Having said that though, I see a couple of horses on my yard that are trimmed for weekly in order to get the short toe and high heel and honestly, they are so sore that they cant walk on concrete without boots on. My TB on the other hand, I have pretty much left since having the shoes removes, with the exception of me taking the bars down and doing minimal rasping, is doing really well in his transition, which started just after Christmas. I am leaving the foot to do what it needs to in order to recover from being shod. I think there are valid points from all the afore mentioned groups and I think that not limiting oneself to following on e method is the answer (IMHO)
 
Good shout LauraLou. Allow the foot to grow, allow the horse to find it's own balance, don't rasp beyond the white line and allow heels to do their job. Keep checking the wear pattern on the soles and you will get an idea of how each hoof is being weighted and where any focus from you needs to be. Oh, and keep up the war on thrush!
 
cariadbach10 said:
Would give this a listen before you do go down this road.
www.buzzsprout.com

Social Media part 2, The Rise of the Cult within barefoot hoof care - M J Farrier another way?

Our most gritty podcast to date by far, Matthew Jackson and Mark Johnson tackle the emotive and divisive subject of what can almost also be described as a dictatorship emerging within barefoot hoof care.With some incredulous claims and absolute st...
www.buzzsprout.com www.buzzsprout.com
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Thankyou so much for this. I joined this group recently despite reservations. They do have some good points but the woman is a nutcase. This podcast pretty much expressed my own thoughts. I agree that heels need lowering but not all at once. Can anyone recommend good supportive boots?
 
Leafcutter said:
Anyone following The phoenix way, path 2 hoof health on Facebook? Their take on laminitis is fascinating, but is there any proper science to back or refute this theory? They say it is excess heel height and cutting back the toes of laminitic hooves that actually causes rotation of the pedal bone, and nothing to do with ddft tension, body weight and gravity. Some of it seems to be logical but I know a horse with very low heels (tb) who had laminitis with rotation, anyone else?
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There is already another, lengthy, communication on here about just this:
‘barefoot, I am getting seriously worried’,
which might illuminate the issues.
 
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