can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?

A Guilding said:
nope :D Remember the word support is banned. support is something you do to a loved one when there in need.
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Lol, I've just barged in on this thread and read to most recent posts as it was started years ago!

Hoof pressure sensors and nerves pick up an instability on the lateral side so grows more sole and hoof wall in that area. When the hoof is no longer sensing instability it maintains growth but stops increasing it. Remember sole grows outwards from frog corium to a large extent according to bowker, as well as downwards.

Will that do?
 
Fantasy_World said:
How many miles do you ride each time?
How many hours and at what pace?
How many times a week?
Do you do endurance?
Does your horse have any confirmation faults? Any former injuries, what age is he/she and what breed/weight?
There is a reason for me asking.
Each horse is different. Each rider is different in what they ask their horse to do. Horses will wear away hoof, it is a natural process. You don't see many wild horses that roam needing trims.
Some horses may have injuries or confirmation faults that may make them prone to wearing away parts of their feet quicker than others. Ask any farrier they will tell you. I am glad your horse seems perfect then. Many others are not, even with the best support in the world ;)
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I am in the process of building up the miles, I started with about 5 in walk, trot and canter, and now am on about 10 each time, but have only been working him for 4 weeks. I am struggling to get enough road work into him to keep his feet down, so I've just booked a trim for this tues (about 5 weeks since his last one). I don't do endurance, but would have no hesitation in trying it if I had the inclination.

He is a 8yo TB, about 550kg. He has a previous stifle injury which affects his gait, but since working him barefoot he has started to grow a deviation which is slowly negating any effect of the injury. His confirmation is otherwise decent, though he has a weak back end, but this has also improved since working him barefoot.

He is certainly far from perfect, but the problems I was having with him whilst he was shod are slowly disappearing, which is why I'm now an obsessed hoof geek ;).
 
amandap said:
Lol, I've just barged in on this thread and read to most recent posts as it was started years ago!

Hoof pressure sensors and nerves pick up an instability on the lateral side so grows more sole and hoof wall in that area. When the hoof is no longer sensing instability it maintains growth but stops increasing it. Remember sole grows outwards from frog corium to a large extent according to bowker, as well as downwards.

Will that do?
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Nope you are still wrong, and I banned the word support just. What you say are the consequences of what is going on but the hoof is plastercine compared with the force placed on it. I have spent a long time looking at this.
 
If the hoof is "plasticine" that explains why many believe shoes are required. :)
The extension of the hoof helps the hoof land correctly to take up the incorrect landing (and forces) that would be imposed with a human idea of a balanced hoof and from the horses way of compensating from the injury or other body problem affecting gait.

Plasticine doesn't bounce back into it's original shape when pressure is applied. The hoof is beautifully designed as a shock absorber one mechanism of which is being able to expand and contract to absorb shock waves.
 
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amandap said:
If the hoof is "plasticine" that explains why many believe shoes are required. :)
The extension of the hoof helps the hoof land correctly to take up the incorrect landing (and forces) that would be imposed with a human idea of a balanced hoof and from the horses way of compensating from the injury or other body problem affecting gait.
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Nope that's not it either. Its landing lateral dont forget. that deviation is caused after that.
 
A Guilding said:
Nope that's not it either. Its landing lateral dont forget. that deviation is caused after that.
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I have to give up with an explanation you agree with then. My understanding is far from deep enough. All I know is that to reshape a hoof like the one we are talking about is questionable as the horse has grown the extension (if that word isn't banned lol). Why has this grown? From the horses gait? If it has grown because of the gait then to me it is required, providing the hoof is not a sick hoof exhibiting laminitis or other physiological distress. If you remove it then the horse will have to compensate again until it's body problems are resolved. If the body problems are lifelong then imo it is better and safer to allow the horse to grow what it needs rather than humans trying to work out what is best and provide that consistently and well enough for the rest of it's life.

ps.any shoeing or reshaping will be out of kilter very quickly as the hoof grows between shoeing cycles. Using work to trim the hoof stays where it is needed providing the work is sufficient.
 
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because not only are your feet surfaces skin instead of hoof you are habituated to shoes indie ;);)

if you had been born to it, or were sufficiently motivated, despite having thin skin you could take shoe off and develope callous that would mean you could be barefoot .... many people are ;)
 
amandap said:
I have to give up with an explanation you agree with then. My understanding is far from deep enough. All I know is that to reshape a hoof like the one we are talking about is questionable as the horse has grown the extension (if that word isn't banned lol). Why has this grown? From the horses gait? If it has grown because of the gait then to me it is required, providing the hoof is not a sick hoof exhibiting laminitis or other physiological distress. If you remove it then the horse will have to compensate again until it's body problems are resolved. If the body problems are lifelong then imo it is better and safer to allow the horse to grow what it needs rather than humans trying to work out what is best and provide that consistently and well enough for the rest of it's life.

ps.any shoeing or reshaping will be out of kilter very quickly as the hoof grows between shoeing cycles. Using work to trim the hoof stays where it is needed providing the work is sufficient.
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Thank you, this is my understanding, but I couldn't have explained it. lol.
 
This is what I think is going on:

The extension has grown because a shoulder injury is making the horse move the leg with more weight on one side than the other. (The shoulder injury seems, at the moment, to be permanent. It is cetainly longstanding). The horse has produced an extension not simply because of the lateral pressure but in order to create an equal sided pressure across the joints higher in its leg. If it had failed to produce that extension, or if it was removed, the one-sided pressure on joints in the leg would, in time, probably result in joint damage and quite possibly lameness. This lameness would no doubt be attributed to the shoulder injury but would in fact be the result of refusing to allow the horse to have the foot it knows it needs.

In my opinion, the word "support" is perfectly valid in explaining what has happened, and it is exactly the word which would be used by a remedial farrier who chose to treat this horse's shoulder injury with an extension forged from steel, as is routinely done with hock spavins and angular limb deformities in the legs.

Sometimes, this issue seems to boil down to whether or not we trust the horse to know what the best foot is for him to have on the end of his own leg.
 
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amandap said:
Yay! This IS THE point! :D
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Soundness is relative, is it in pain probably not, does it have an asymmetrical acquired stride yes, the question posed to me is what would i do different, I would radius that toe, and id have that deviation off, trust me the leg will still move the same but any future possible catastrophic failure of that capsule will be stemmed. It is on the limit of the elastic capabilities of the horn I would imagine.
There is lots going on with that hoof and all the little bits add up to that hoof distortion. I will If you like give my thoughts on how it ended up like that.
 
A Guilding said:
Soundness is relative, is it in pain probably not, does it have an asymmetrical acquired stride yes, the question posed to me is what would i do different, I would radius that toe, and id have that deviation off, trust me the leg will still move the same but any future possible catastrophic failure of that capsule will be stemmed. It is on the limit of the elastic capabilities of the horn I would imagine.
There is lots going on with that hoof and all the little bits add up to that hoof distortion. I will If you like give my thoughts on how it ended up like that.
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I'd be interested to know how you think it ended up like that.
 
A Guilding said:
What if its wrong?
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It may be wrong, but we don't think so, and perhaps to understand us you need to know where we get it from. We are now aware, amongst ourselves and from Rockleyfarm, of numerous horses who were unsound in shoes, who went the shoes were taken off grew very, very significant deviations in the feet. These horses are sound with the deviations and less sound if they are trimmed away and positively unsound in shoes. The more we hear about and see, the more we think the horse actually knows best and we should stop trying to tell him how to manage his own foot shape.

In previous years, a horse a farrier couldn't get sound would normally just have been shot. We don't yet know, long term, how sound these horses will stay, but since they were unsound in shoes then every day is a bonus. I think Rockley has had a couple of them hunting for four or five years now, so it's looking good :)
 
A Guilding said:
Soundness is relative, is it in pain probably not, does it have an asymmetrical acquired stride yes, the question posed to me is what would i do different, I would radius that toe, and id have that deviation off, trust me the leg will still move the same but any future possible catastrophic failure of that capsule will be stemmed. It is on the limit of the elastic capabilities of the horn I would imagine.
There is lots going on with that hoof and all the little bits add up to that hoof distortion. I will If you like give my thoughts on how it ended up like that.
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I don't understand what "radius that toe" means I'm afriad but assume it means making it symetrical?


Imo the hoof capsule is not at risk. It is certainly not elastic, it is a growing living complex structure that is capable of dynamic responses with many properties, including sensory feedback which stimulates or reduces growth in every type of tissue in the hoof. If the extension was not required it would have weaker horn and break/chip off as long walls/quarters tend to do.

ps. I may well be wrong. I have tried to explain my current understanding of what makes perfect sense to me.
 
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A Guilding said:
Soundness is relative, is it in pain probably not, does it have an asymmetrical acquired stride yes, the question posed to me is what would i do different, I would radius that toe, and id have that deviation off, trust me the leg will still move the same but any future possible catastrophic failure of that capsule will be stemmed. It is on the limit of the elastic capabilities of the horn I would imagine.
There is lots going on with that hoof and all the little bits add up to that hoof distortion. I will If you like give my thoughts on how it ended up like that.
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How is it going to catastrophically fail? The horse is bearing most on the heels and frog, with the frog in contact with the floor. Why should it catastrophically fail, and in what way??
 
A Guilding we are all enjoying discussing this with you tons, I bet :D

To put things in perspective, can you just tell us whether you do a lot of working barefoot horse feet or whether you mainly shoe working horses? I'm guessing but it's pretty obvious you're a farrier ;)
 
I am enjoying it because it makes me think about what I understand and whether it makes sense or not. :D I always have huge admiration for someone talking/discussing with a few who have different beliefs and is able to remain calm and patient. :)
 
"Sometimes but not always" is the key to trimming.

We can all be experts if we sound clever enough and it can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be.

But a sound horse is a sound horse.

And that's all I really care about.
 
cptrayes said:
A Guilding we are all enjoying discussing this with you tons, I bet :D

To put things in perspective, can you just tell us whether you do a lot of working barefoot horse feet or whether you mainly shoe working horses? I'm guessing but it's pretty obvious you're a farrier ;)
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I dont think that the ability to unwrap a foot is prohibited by a professional title, as I also don't believe that all the theory in the world will be of use to anyone who cant use tools.
 
A Guilding, I'm interested to hear more about the 'catastrophic failure' you mentioned. As I said above, my horse has grown a deviation in response to a stifle injury; in your opinion, is this putting his hoof capsule at risk of catastrophic failure? If so, would you mind expanding on what that might entail?

The horse moves straight with the deviation, and is unlevel without it. The hoof capsule does not appear to be under any extra strain - the area with the deviation is not any more prone to chipping or cracking, and my farrier is leaving it well enough alone. Would you advise removing the deviation (it is not flare - the white line is tight all the way around)?
 
Nocturnal said:
A Guilding, I'm interested to hear more about the 'catastrophic failure' you mentioned. As I said above, my horse has grown a deviation in response to a stifle injury; in your opinion, is this putting his hoof capsule at risk of catastrophic failure? If so, would you mind expanding on what that might entail?

The horse moves straight with the deviation, and is unlevel without it. The hoof capsule does not appear to be under any extra strain - the area with the deviation is not any more prone to chipping or cracking, and my farrier is leaving it well enough alone. Would you advise removing the deviation (it is not flare - the white line is tight all the way around)?
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That's a lot of assumptions, don't get me wrong anecdotal is fine and if it works then great don't change it.
 
cptrayes said:
A Guilding we are all enjoying discussing this with you tons, I bet :D

To put things in perspective, can you just tell us whether you do a lot of working barefoot horse feet or whether you mainly shoe working horses? I'm guessing but it's pretty obvious you're a farrier ;)
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A Guilding said:
I dont think that the ability to unwrap a foot is prohibited by a professional title, as I also don't believe that all the theory in the world will be of use to anyone who cant use tools.
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I can't disagree with you there but you haven't answered the question :rolleyes:

We get a lot of farriers from time to time discussing things with us on HHO, and some of them turn out, on asking, not to have a single horse on their books that does any more than a gentle off road hack now and then.

If you aren't one of those, then you'll know that the unshod feet of horses who work hard often look very different from those of a paddock ornament.
 
A Guilding said:
That's a lot of assumptions, don't get me wrong anecdotal is fine and if it works then great don't change it.
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I haven't made any assumptions :confused:. But yes, it does seem to work for my horse. I was just interested, as you advocated removing the deviation from the horse in the link.

But I'd also be interested in your views on how that hoof came to look as it does?
 
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