can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?

I just think that barefoot trimmers are trying to over egg the pudding.

Years ago (20 odd), when my pony was kept on livery at a riding school, most of the riding school animals went without shoes. They were tended by the farrier as and when was necessary. They all got fed the same, as did the shod horses. We had no incidence of lami or other foot problems in the 11 years I was there.

As Rabbie said, a horse just didn't have shoes on, now, it seems to have to be termed as barefoot.
Why is that? To justify a barefoot bods existence maybe :confused:?
 
nokia said:
hang on ..i am talking about a fully qualified professional foot trimmer,

A farrier is not neccessarily trained to trim a foot for a barefoot lifestyle (he is trained to trim a foot to take a shoe, very different). n.b. that is not to say he cannot do it, there are clearly similarities and many farriers would make great barefoot trimmers.

Its also intresting to see so many top international dressage horses competiing these days being trimmed by barefoot trimmers
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well sounds to me that you have made up your mind and have formed an opinion so not sure why you have asked what people on here think. This has been done to death, all you have to do is do a search and you will get a number of threads on the subject.

I have asked my farrier about this

''A farrier is not neccessarily trained to trim a foot for a barefoot lifestyle (he is trained to trim a foot to take a shoe, very different''

and he refutes this, they are taught to trim a hoof in the correct way for the horse regardless whether it is shod or not. They spend years training, not just the odd weekend. I am sure their training is a bit more comprehensive than an unqualified trimmer.

Brucea, is that the most relevant qualification your good trimmer has, that of a master saddler?
Well my farrier is properly qualified and insured, does a great job and has never struck my horse with a tool!!
Farriers aren't barbarians who wreck horses hooves and batter them. Also, mine was trerribly lame last month, hopping in fact. Called farrier and he put her shoe back on and off she went happy as larry with totally sound. amazing!!
 
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nokia said:
How did you find that out about 15 days training that is scarey stuff if true
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brucea said:
Wow, I think you'll find the EP's and the UKNHCP folks train a lot more than that!
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Taken from a 'Professional Barefoot Trimmers' website.

20th December 2009 - I graduated successfully from the AANHCP foundation course in Natural Hoof Care

5th December 2009 - In Texas attending the AANHCP Foundation course in Natural Hoof Care, being trained by founder of the AANHCP Jaime Jackson.
 
chestnuttymare said:
Farriers aren't barbarians who wreck horses hooves and batter them.
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Some of them are though! See my post above. There are some super farriers out there, and there are some butchers. There is NO excuse for putting a nail through not one, but two horses on the same yards laminae and laming them terribly.
 
Not only has a farrier trained for years, as opposed to weeks, they will shoe/trim your horse without preaching about what you should/shouldn't be feeding your horse.


absolutely. Then if the unshod horse is footy they will say it "can't do barefoot" and put shoes on it again. A barefoot trimmer will suggest why it is footy based on their experience of doing nothing but getting horses going barefoot. Years of training is fine if it has any relevance to what you are trying to do. If however that training is in making and fitting shoes and you don't want any then it is not really very much use.:rolleyes:
 
Whats pees me off is that there are some people that do not believe in having shoes at their animals cost.

There is a lady near me that on no terms will consider shoes , her horses are always lame, have abcesses and she trims them constantly. She has been advised by a few professionals ie vet, chiropractor that maybe it does not suit her horses but because she would rather stick to HER beliefs, her poor horses are suffering.
 
In my opinion this is in a way a bit of a nonsensical question, you can have a bad farrier and an excellent BFT, or a god awful BFT and a fantastic Farrier, Starzaan is always going to side with the farrier since she has farrieritis but for my part I have an excellent farrier and would not trust anyone else. In my opinion the years that go into training a farrier give them a far better knowlege and expertise base on average. I could have 10 BFT's lined up offering their services to me (well my horses hooves) and I would choose to pay my farrier over them. I would also never trust anyone who cannot get the terminology right, theoretically they should be referred to as bare hoof trimmers, horses do not have feet, feet have toes, horses do not have feet or toes they have hooves. End point.
 
queenbee said:
. I would also never trust anyone who cannot get the terminology right, theoretically they should be referred to as bare hoof trimmers, horses do not have feet, feet have toes, horses do not have feet or toes they have hooves. End point.
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LMFAO

I agree with the earlier part of your post. As have most people. You get good and bad. Get a recommendation for either and find one that suits you and you're probably laughing whichever you choose.
 
NO FOOT, NO HORSE

Only the best treatment available, i have possibly the best farrier who come out on xmas eve and NYE to treat navicular/ pedal bone rotation with success!
 
amandap said:
can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?

It depends! lol If you want your horse to do your normal stuff then I'd definitely plump for a 'good' Trimmer. Referenced as Lucypriory suggests, there are bad Trimmers out there too. The trim however isn't the whole story or the most important aspect. You may have to make dietry changes and look at management to give your horse the best chance of growing good strong feet.

I posted two links on your other thread and I am certain not one Trimmer on them quallified after just 15 days! :D Check out the initials after the names and you'll see some are actually Farriers as well. This fact alone tells me there is a difference in the trim and training, why would a busy Farrier bother to learn something he already knows? ;)
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The answer to your questions about farriers in the first paragraph is yes he does.

I have a mare who had a severe bout of laminitis this Autumn and it is thanks to his hard work in conjunction with my vets that she is now able to go out.

We had a livery on here who suffered with EMS induced Laminitis and he never left the stable literally apart from a 20 minute walk every evening and he was trimmed by several different barefoot trimmers sorry but I cant help but wonder would he have been more comfortable going down the traditional route?

We never disagreed with the owners approach as he was hers to do with as she felt fit and she followed their feeding etc to a T but since having one with similar problems (they think she may be insulin resistant) and seeing the difference my farrier has made to her its remarkable I will always stick to him (he has given me advice on feeding and is always happy to go through lameness issues etc not necessarily foot related).

The same mare who has had the lami has a fused fetlock and therefore wears a wedge on that foot again the only thing that has made her comfortable before this she was barefoot and just trimmed and the wedge was her last hope and overnight she was comfortable.

Its just my personal experience and I may have been lucky and always had good farriers all my 7 other horses are just trimmed no shoes one pony has a slight turn in her foot and the farrier spends plenty of time balancing both her back feet to help her compensate in the best possible way and all this for £15.00 a trim compared to £60.00 per horse for a barefoot trimmer. Money isnt everything but it certainly effects things.
 
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jesstickle said:
So does my farrier win uber points for always watching my horses move, and recommending me a low sugar diet and very rarely taking off any sole at all then? I hope he does as he's lovely :)
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Yep!

But the problem with (some) farriers can be,as I see it, once they've qualified, that's it, they can do their own thing. To stay qualified, trimmers belonging to the main associations have to do regular CPD days to keep up to date.

Did you know that when they were drafting the National Occupational Standards, the farriers had to raise the bar to come up to the standards required by the trimmers in at least one area?

Just make sure your trimmer is qualified with one of the recognised Associations and you have quality hoof care.
 
I'd maybe never have gone barefoot if I hadn't moved from Hampshire to Kent.

The Kent farrier - who trains all the local apprentices - ruined my competition horse and nearly did for my youngster too. Wanted to put shoes and pads on a less than 2yr old.

So an alternative (and controversial farrier) helped me keep the youngster barefoot. Until she was in a car accident she had been self trimming because of the hours of road work we did. Long reining until 5, ridden and/or long reining after that.

It was only post the car accident that I realised that the (newish) farrier had barely if ever trimmed her. And it was some time until I realised he couldn't trim for toffee, despite marketing himself as a barefoot specialist.

To cut a very long story short, spanning over two decades - I found I could not find a farrier who could do the job and keep my horse sound. But a barefoot trimmer could.
 
intouch said:
But the problem with (some) farriers can be,as I see it, once they've qualified, that's it, they can do their own thing.
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Ah well, there you go. I don't let penis heads near my horses because I can not, on a personal level, tolerate them.

I like people who constantly want to improve their knowledge base because, I hope, that's how I am and therefore I wouldn't ever choose to let anyone (farrier, trimmer vet) who thought they knew everything near any animal of mine.

I think it pays to be open minded in life.
 
As i am sure many of you have heard of the lack of farriers in Aberdeenshire. I cant find a farrier that will turn up, or be on time, or turn up on the right day or even the right month, answer their phone, take a booking!!! So this year i am going to have to turn to barefoot trimmer.

I cant afford the barefoot trimmers prices (from what i have been told of them) so i have to put one of mine out to share!

Is it true that trimmers come out every 4 weeks? Why?
 
intouch said:
Yep!

But the problem with (some) farriers can be,as I see it, once they've qualified, that's it, they can do their own thing. To stay qualified, trimmers belonging to the main associations have to do regular CPD days to keep up to date.

Did you know that when they were drafting the National Occupational Standards, the farriers had to raise the bar to come up to the standards required by the trimmers in at least one area?

Just make sure your trimmer is qualified with one of the recognised Associations and you have quality hoof care.
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As I understand it farriers have to get a fixed amount of cpd points each year in order to stay on the register.
 
nokia said:
hang on ..i am talking about a fully qualified professional foot trimmer,
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Oh, sorry my mistake, did he get this qualification at christmas, along with a box of crackers and a funny pointy hat during christmas lunch then?

brucea said:
Pointless discussion Lucy - you won't change the way people feel - they will be pro farrier and anti trimmer. And the horses will have ongoing problems throughout their lives. And navicular syndrome, contraction, underrun heels, and concussion injuries will be just a fact of life for many of these animals.

Well I'll have a good trimer any day - the trimmer I know best is not only a trimmer, but was a master saddler, and has travelled worldwide learning about horse behaviour - she's good, very good indeed.

QUOTE]

Good for you, well just call me and evil cow then... cause if I deem it necessary I will wreck my girls hooves with shoes and ruin her life, because I don't care about her welfare like you do.

brucea said:
Actually, the interestign thing is that a good basic trim can be done by either a trimmer or a farrier. Different trims styles often, but if the hoof is straightforward then a straightforward trim do, and in a couple of weeks natural wear might make each indistinguishable from the other anyway.

Trimmers tend to look at more than just the hoof - they'll have spent a lot of time uderstanding diet, movement etc. and will try to understand the overall helath and chartacteristics of that horse.

So imagine for a momment that you had hooves - would you be happy with a chiropodist who just treated your hoof the same as every other hoof, didn't see how you moved, or explored whether aspects of your diet might be affecting the health of your feet, didn't try to work out why that flare was so big or you had trouble landing on your heels? Would you like it if the chiropodist didn't listen to you about not wanting to wear shoes and scooped your soles dand pared your frog, so that you were sore for a couple of weeks on stony ground? How would you feel?

I think the problem with this argument is that you're trying to compare apples and bananas.
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You obviously haven't met my farrier have you, if you were a horse you would look like this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_v2tO9US4pME/SK6IKH8UUQI/AAAAAAAADZI/zKd4nRZzK9Y/s400/blinkers.JPG

God it isn't a bloody war between bare'hooved' and shod it is what works for the horse!

paddy555 said:
Not only has a farrier trained for years, as opposed to weeks, they will shoe/trim your horse without preaching about what you should/shouldn't be feeding your horse.


absolutely. Then if the unshod horse is footy they will say it "can't do barefoot" and put shoes on it again. A barefoot trimmer will suggest why it is footy based on their experience of doing nothing but getting horses going barefoot. QUOTE]

Again, I must have a very radical and forward thinking farrier because mine does this, or could it be that he is, what's the word.....






TRAINED?











Blood begining to boil, going to put the kettle on!
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To put a different slant on the debate, I think most farriers are missing a trick here. There is no doubt that more and more people are choosing to have their horses unshod/barefoot/whatever. I think that this trend will just continue - how many people had even heard of a barefoot trimmer 10 years ago? Give it another 10 years and it will be even more common.

I think it's more about attitude than capability (assuming you're comparing like for like - a good farrier against a good trimmer). I heard somewhere (can't remember where), that a farrier looks for what he can take off, whereas a trimmer looks for what he can leave on.

There is much to be said in favour of both schools of thought (I have experience of both)and farriers must surely be in a great position to take advantage of this, and maximise their potentially declining client base by looking at it with a fresh pair of eyes? Let's face it there is something slightly wrong about nailing metal onto a shock absorbing structure...

Science and knowledge moves on - we know a lot more about the hoof than we did when we started nailing shoes on however many years ago, so in my view farriers could make the most of their excellent traditional training by taking a look at what the newbies are doing.

My perfect hoof specialist would be a farrier trained barefoot trimmer.

Or a barefoot trimmer trained farrier :)
 
LucyPriory said:
I'd maybe never have gone barefoot if I hadn't moved from Hampshire to Kent.

The Kent farrier - who trains all the local apprentices - ruined my competition horse and nearly did for my youngster too. Wanted to put shoes and pads on a less than 2yr old.

So an alternative (and controversial farrier) helped me keep the youngster barefoot. Until she was in a car accident she had been self trimming because of the hours of road work we did. Long reining until 5, ridden and/or long reining after that.

It was only post the car accident that I realised that the (newish) farrier had barely if ever trimmed her. And it was some time until I realised he couldn't trim for toffee, despite marketing himself as a barefoot specialist.

To cut a very long story short, spanning over two decades - I found I could not find a farrier who could do the job and keep my horse sound. But a barefoot trimmer could.
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Maybe it's a Kent thing Lucy, that was my experience as well. I know there are farriers around who do a great trim for a barefoot working horse, problem is, I couldn't find one when the one I used moved away.
 
queenbee said:
Starzaan is always going to side with the farrier since she has farrieritis.
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OI YOU!

I DO have farrieritis, but I would also trust the fit farrier's housemate with my horses feet, as he trained with FF and I honestly can't tell the difference between a horse shod by him and a horse shod by FF.

My darling farrier talks to me about feed, movement, what the horse is doing etc. and often tells me to shut up when I suggest something ridiculous. He's actively discouraged me from putting shoes on my 4yr old until such time when/if he needs them, and yet he is still working on sorting out this horse's dishing.

I had a "remedial" farrier with no formal training come and look at a youngster with horrendous feet and a very very twisted foreleg where I last worked. After six months of over £100 spent on a trim every four weeks, there was no improvement, and I decided to ignore my boss and get FF to look at it. The youngster who hadn't been sound in the field from the day I started my job, was sound and nearly straight by the time I left, thanks to FF.

I have no issue with "barefoot" horses - my spotty creature was barefoot when I got him, and evented successfully barefoot, was never footy and never slipped on soft ground. The farrier told me not to put shoes on him unless he needed them, so I didn't!

I think it depends entirely on the person doing the job - there are good and bad in both professions, but now that I've found my superstar farrier and his superstar farrier housemate, I'm sticking with farriers :D
 
chestnuttymare said:
He doesn't seem to list it in his qualifications then. My apologies if i was wrong. Not sure why it is important whether he is an alien or not.
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mmm.......I thought it was strange he hadn't mentioned it, perhaps he is ashamed of his farriery past, although he has been very busy so not sure where he would have fitted the training in.
 
LucyPriory said:
Well only farriers are allowed to shoe horses and he used to shoe horses - so I guess he must have been a farrier

or an outer space alien, but I doubt that bit
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I would pay good money to watch a space alien shoe my horse. Seriously.

Can I suggest that the reason that Farriers are "training" to be "barefoot trimmers" is because they have seen a market and don't mind taking 15 days out of their schedule to get on the register rather than because they have seen the light?

Just sayin...
 
Starzaan said:
OI YOU!
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;) :D :D :D

Starzaan said:
My darling farrier talks to me about feed, movement, what the horse is doing etc. and often tells me to shut up when I suggest something ridiculous. He's actively discouraged me from putting shoes on my 4yr old until such time when/if he needs them,
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mines like that :), come to think of it, we must have the same farrier, perhaps mine commutes up country, your farrier likes you, mine was kicked in the head by a horse... they must be the same farrier :D :D:D


Starzaan said:
I had a "remedial" farrier with no formal training come and look at a youngster with horrendous feet and a very very twisted foreleg where I last worked. After six months of over £100 spent on a trim every four weeks, there was no improvement, and I decided to ignore my boss and get FF to look at it. The youngster who hadn't been sound in the field from the day I started my job, was sound and nearly straight by the time I left, thanks to FF.
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That was actually because the very reasonably priced Remedial Farrier, snuck into the stable at night and continued the horses treatment, god anyone would think your FF had qualifications, expericence and knowledge or something and not just a fit bod and winning smile ;) :p

Starzaan said:
I have no issue with "barefoot" horses I think it depends entirely on the person doing the job QUOTE] snap/ ditto and all that :)
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