LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
Ok, big fantasy bowl of sweets and chocolate for everyone to dive into at this point on me.
So long as none of it gets fed to your horses
So long as none of it gets fed to your horses
can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?
- Thread starter nokia
- Start date
Jesstickle
Well-Known Member
That's good timing because the popcorn I got out last night when this first started has all run out now. Ta LP 
fizzer
Well-Known Member
I totally agree, Im just using her as an example because she is the only person I personally know of where she seems to have lost all values of whats best for her horses. She is very passionate about what she believes in, which is great, but do not let your animal suffer because of it.
I would be just as peed off with someone who had shod horses and the same was happeneing.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
IMO there are good and bad farriers. I would never let a bad farrier work on my horses' feet.
However all farriers have had much more extensive training than any EP, so I would certainly never let one of them loose on their feet. We currently have one shod all round, one shod on the front, one shoeless, all in work and one retired and shoeless. Our excellent farrier trims and shoes as necessary, decisions about what each horse has are made in conjunction with his advice.
I do wonder how it is that unregistered farriers can be found to be breaking the law by preparing horses' feet for shoeing, while 'barefoot trimmers' get away with trimming without proper qualifications.
However all farriers have had much more extensive training than any EP, so I would certainly never let one of them loose on their feet. We currently have one shod all round, one shod on the front, one shoeless, all in work and one retired and shoeless. Our excellent farrier trims and shoes as necessary, decisions about what each horse has are made in conjunction with his advice.
I do wonder how it is that unregistered farriers can be found to be breaking the law by preparing horses' feet for shoeing, while 'barefoot trimmers' get away with trimming without proper qualifications.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
"when he is in"? When he is out is he on grass? Take him off the grass. He will then grow foot which will withstand the roadwork. No grass will probably be the answer with this horse if you wanted it barefoot. If you don't, fine, shoe it.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I seriously question mould inhibitors and antifungals. I think they are possibly not a good thing for the very sensitive ones.
And then we slap shoes on which change the sole from being in a supporting role to being in a bridging role. Can that be a good idea?
Does this seem like a brilliant idea??? Maybe this is much better?
The more I think about it, the less sense peripheral loading makes.
Bruce I'm copying your diagram just because I think it is so b****y marvellous! The wonder is not that horses can work without shoes but that they are EVER sound long term in them, they work so counter to what nature intended! All that weight hanging off laminae that were never designed to do that job, and we wonder why it goes wrong from time to time!
thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
Yes you can trim your own horses feet and that's fine as long as it's not being perpaired for a shoe than it becomes illegal. Strange.
thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
Now show a pic on stoney ground with stones digging into their soles and not so picture perfect
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
'TB like thin soles' - it's such a myth that the thoroughbred as a breed has bad feet. It's simply untrue. TB feet can be just as great as any other breed. I've seen plenty of them. TB's only have bad feet because of the way they are managed - many shod at a very young age (18 months), kept stabled, pumped full of cereals. If you take off their shoes, feed them right and condition their feet you would be amazed. You don't even need to stop racing them. Simon Earle is testament to that. The horses on his yard have beautiful feet. The thing that worries me is that for many professionals they still buy into this TB's have bad feet, end of. And that means that bad feet become acceptable for thoroughbreds - no point in trying to improve them, it's genetic. It so isn't!
But in this horse's case he is clearly cereal and alfalfa intolerant. Lucy is right in that HiFi contains alfalfa. And most balancers contain cereals - look at the small print, see if you see things like wheat feed, oat feed etc. These amounts may be small but for extra sensitive horses the smallest amounts can have huge consequences. The comments on preservatives and mold inhibitors are also very relevant. Most horses can cope with them fine but for a small minority (like a small minority of people who are wheat intolerant or dairy intolerant etc) the effects are catastrophic. I'd give Debbie at Thunderbrook horse feeds a ring and have a chat to her - all their feeds are preservative and mold inhibitor free. It's a very different way of feeding but I think would make a massive difference to this horse.
Laafet
Well-Known Member
You know what in an ideal world this is what I would do, but he goes ballistic when in. He is ok this time of year being in at night but come spring he wants out as soon as the sun comes up. Believe me we have tried everything, but he gets himself so worked up that he weaves/box walks like crazy to the point where he is foaming with sweat. This is not really humane for him at all so we manage him by maximal turnout in the spring/summer but on very poor grass with the other fatties. I work professionally with horses and if it was so simple then would have managed to get round this. Also even though the vets suggested full box rest when he injured his suspensory, when they saw the state he got into even on sedation they said it was harming him more to be in and so I got him up to the stud where I work and had him on an allweather pen. This is only something I can do outside of the breeding season so he can't live at the stud permanently.
This is the problem with the forum, if it was so black and white we would not be here but then some people clearly believe that life is very black and white. If you feel that you can deal with his issues better then fine suggest them. The vets are stumped themselves after suggesting stuff that I have already done, next step is to prescribe him Valium so he can cope with being in more.
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
Why would stones dig into the soles of a healthy barefoot? They certainly don't with my rock crunching barefooters.
thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
'TB like thin soles' - it's such a myth that the thoroughbred as a breed has bad feet. It's simply untrue. TB feet can be just as great as any other breed. I've seen plenty of them. TB's only have bad feet because of the way they are managed - many shod at a very young age (18 months), kept stabled, pumped full of cereals. If you take off their shoes, feed them right and condition their feet you would be amazed. You don't even need to stop racing them. Simon Earle is testament to that. The horses on his yard have beautiful feet. The thing that worries me is that for many professionals they still buy into this TB's have bad feet, end of. And that means that bad feet become acceptable for thoroughbreds - no point in trying to improve them, it's genetic. It so isn't!
But in this horse's case he is clearly cereal and alfalfa intolerant. Lucy is right in that HiFi contains alfalfa. And most balancers contain cereals - look at the small print, see if you see things like wheat feed, oat feed etc. These amounts may be small but for extra sensitive horses the smallest amounts can have huge consequences. The comments on preservatives and mold inhibitors are also very relevant. Most horses can cope with them fine but for a small minority (like a small minority of people who are wheat intolerant or dairy intolerant etc) the effects are catastrophic. I'd give Debbie at Thunderbrook horse feeds a ring and have a chat to her - all their feeds are preservative and mold inhibitor free. It's a very different way of feeding but I think would make a massive difference to this horse.[/QUOTE
iv found something I agree with
yes tb feet aren't bad and iv bought plenty with bad feet it is purely down to mostly bad diet not the breed off horse.
Re the balancers, topspec is cereal free but does contain wheat meal I think it's called. Rung them to ask because I won't feed cereal diet and it's not the high starch wheat that is used ( the inners) purely the outer husk which makes no different and can be classed as careal free.
LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
swopped the sweets for bananas and cream.....
I have seen so many nails through feet I am starting to turn veggie. Pulling them out makes me want to drive the porcelain bus.
I wonder if shoeing were invented today if it would be allowed?
It is very possible to screw up badly when trimming, but it usually takes several determinedly ignorant attempts, whereas it is incredibly easy to do major injury to a horse with even a fair attempt at shoeing.
The worst trim jobs I have seen have been farrier or owner/trimmer. I have seen a poor one by a barefoot trimmer specialist, but it was poor, not gob smackingly awful.
But the lame horses I get called out to are invariably shod, rarely bare, so my experience of other trimmers work is in comparison limited.
Ok, now for the important business of raiding the sweetie jar
I have seen so many nails through feet I am starting to turn veggie. Pulling them out makes me want to drive the porcelain bus.
I wonder if shoeing were invented today if it would be allowed?
It is very possible to screw up badly when trimming, but it usually takes several determinedly ignorant attempts, whereas it is incredibly easy to do major injury to a horse with even a fair attempt at shoeing.
The worst trim jobs I have seen have been farrier or owner/trimmer. I have seen a poor one by a barefoot trimmer specialist, but it was poor, not gob smackingly awful.
But the lame horses I get called out to are invariably shod, rarely bare, so my experience of other trimmers work is in comparison limited.
Ok, now for the important business of raiding the sweetie jar
thatsmygirl
Well-Known Member
Why are there so many bare footed horses around me with bruised soles? They can't cope with the crap ground we have in our area. The equine vets farrier is correcting 3 who have such bad bruised feet x rays have been done. I blame the owners for half this for not noticeing but I can't say on here what the vet said, I would get banned.
Iv got a tb who I would love to go bare foot so if anybody is in the south west area I'm willing to try and let you prove me wrong? Iv tried but as soon as he stands on a stone off any size he's lame as and the graval I picked deep out his soles was stupid.
He's got no slits cracks etc in his feet, all the instructors comment on how he's moves and uses himself and on a diet off topspec comprehensive balancer, hi fi un mollessed and speedi beet.
As soon as his shoes are off he can't stand and there's no way he will walk around the yard.
Honestly I'm being serious here if anybody is local I will try and see if I can change my views
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I didn't say IN. I said no grass. Plenty of people do it on tracks and dry lots. It IS so simple, I did it with a horse whose soles were 3.5 mm thick last year who had also been on very very very sparse grazing - still too much. Grass was his only real issue.
If you can't or won't then shoe, simples!
LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
'TB like thin soles' - it's such a myth that the thoroughbred as a breed has bad feet. It's simply untrue. TB feet can be just as great as any other breed. I've seen plenty of them. TB's only have bad feet because of the way they are managed - many shod at a very young age (18 months), kept stabled, pumped full of cereals. If you take off their shoes, feed them right and condition their feet you would be amazed. You don't even need to stop racing them. Simon Earle is testament to that. The horses on his yard have beautiful feet. The thing that worries me is that for many professionals they still buy into this TB's have bad feet, end of. And that means that bad feet become acceptable for thoroughbreds - no point in trying to improve them, it's genetic. It so isn't!
But in this horse's case he is clearly cereal and alfalfa intolerant. Lucy is right in that HiFi contains alfalfa. And most balancers contain cereals - look at the small print, see if you see things like wheat feed, oat feed etc. These amounts may be small but for extra sensitive horses the smallest amounts can have huge consequences. The comments on preservatives and mold inhibitors are also very relevant. Most horses can cope with them fine but for a small minority (like a small minority of people who are wheat intolerant or dairy intolerant etc) the effects are catastrophic. I'd give Debbie at Thunderbrook horse feeds a ring and have a chat to her - all their feeds are preservative and mold inhibitor free. It's a very different way of feeding but I think would make a massive difference to this horse.[/QUOTE
iv found something I agree with
yes tb feet aren't bad and iv bought plenty with bad feet it is purely down to mostly bad diet not the breed off horse.
Re the balancers, topspec is cereal free but does contain wheat meal I think it's called. Rung them to ask because I won't feed cereal diet and it's not the high starch wheat that is used ( the inners) purely the outer husk which makes no different and can be classed as careal free.
oh oh oh, wheat feed is a known baddie - and it is a cereal (derivative)
extracted from http://thunderbrook.co.uk/app/download/3106767802/Some+ingredients+of+processed+horse+feeds.pdf
Wheatfeed, Wheat Middlings
Wheatfeed is not ground up whole wheat or wheat bran. This is the major milling waste by-product of flour,
fed to horses in the UK. Wheatfeed is obtained from screened grains or dehusked spelt. It consists principally
of fragments of the outer skins and particles of the grain, course middlings and fine middlings. It is processed
(usually pelleted) to bind the fine particles together. In addition to seed treatment and ammonium nitrate
fertilisers, wheat grown in the UK receives on average 3 treatments of fungicides, 3 herbicides, 2 growth
regulators and 1 insecticide. The grain may then be dusted, sprayed or gassed with pesticides in farm grain
stores, followed by another possible dust, gas or spray of pesticides in commercial grain storage. The fabric
of the stores may also be sprayed with pesticides. Wheatfeed is primarily the outer parts of the wheat grain
that have been in direct contact with these various treatments, and contain dust, dirt, mould spores and
mycotoxins concentrated during the milling process, as for oatfeed above.
Queenbee
Well-Known Member
Well they bloody well do with my TB x Friesian who has excellent feet, high fibre diet with mineral supplement and low sugar, I know it's not because she's a nancy.....
that'll be the sodding farriers fault! I shall trundle off and pay more than a pair of shoes cost to have a 2 week trained person see what he/she can 'leave on the feet' that'll fix it!
Goddamnit, not all horses can do the whole barefoot/unshod thing, not all horses need/go well with shoes/ not all BFT's are worth the money and there are equally some farriers that I wouldn't let near a rocking horse, I do think the following though:
Granted, probably the majority of the farriers training is to do with 'shoeing' the horse, but they do learn about the other things too, such as balance, anatomy, conditions and ailments and yes feeding. This takes 4 years, I am sure that during the four years they spend more than 2 weeks learning what BFT's take 2 weeks to learn. Interestingly 2 weeks out of 4 years is considerably less than 1% I am sure that farriers spend more than 1% of their time learning the 'barefoot/unshod' aspect of a horse. Furthermore, I will always have a hard time trusting anyone who goes around spouting that in 2 weeks they learnt verything about all ailments/ remedial treatments/ conditions/Dietary requirements of the horse and how this relates to the horse and its hooves.
LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
Queenbee - putting aside any frustration or other emotive aspects.
How hard and how thick are your TB x Friesian's soles? Perhaps you could post photos? It would be really interesting to see.
I for one would be appreciative
Jesstickle
Well-Known Member
I had a TB with incredibly flat feet. They were like soup plates. I don't think he would ever have stayed sound without shoes. He was constantly picking up bruises and abscesses as it was.
I think if you have a horse which can never have grass just so it can be barefoot that's a pretty grotty experience for the poor creature. If I was looking at that I'm afraid I would consider shoes the lesser of two evils. JMO of course
I think if you have a horse which can never have grass just so it can be barefoot that's a pretty grotty experience for the poor creature. If I was looking at that I'm afraid I would consider shoes the lesser of two evils. JMO of course
paddy555
Well-Known Member
PHP:
All my horses are on a low sugar/starch diet. All on topspec balancers in hi fi molasse free with speedi beet if needed. All have no cracks,chips nothing in their feet. Just some aren't cut out to be bare foot and can't cope with it. Anybody else seen horses muscals build up wrong while they try to go bare foot? To ease the pressure a bit and not move right?
I'm sure some horses cope really well bare foot and iv got some but for others it just won't work and for those I won't force it upon themThey may well not cope with barefoot on Top Spec balancer. Many unshod horses have had problems with it which have gone when it has been removed from the diet. My horse was footsore until I removed it. It took me a long time to accept that it was the top spec balancer. I removed everything else from the diet first. Only when removing the T/S was the problem solved. I then found that lots of people had come to the same conclusion.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I doubt if my rehab would describe himself as " a poor creature". He is full of the joys of life, which is just as well because if I had not taken him on his other choice was to be put to sleep. Do you REALLY think a horse would rather be dead than live life on a dry lot with hay to eat?
Shoes were not an option, he had navicular disease too.
amandap
Well-Known Member
I don't think so.
What does infracted mean please? 
I've got a 'poor creature' who can't eat grass. Mmmm, I have choices, I allow her to eat grass and get laminitis or I provide a good grass free area with friends or what? Pts because life is unbearable without grass? Should we pts humans who have diabetes or other diseases whose lifestyle and or diet is restricted? It's not a difficult one for me when a good quality of life can be provided.
Yards, tracks etc. etc. there's no need to stable purely to avoid grass in my view.
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Jesstickle
Well-Known Member
Well he's a horse so he wouldn't 'rather' either of the options. He has no sense of what tomorrow means or of his own mortality.
I'm sure he is very happy. I wasn't trying to cast aspersions. The option of dry lotting horses, with enough space to have a hoon and to have a few friends out with them is not available to the vast majority of people. So saying no grass for most horses in this country means living in isolation on a tiny patch of earth at best. That is no life IMHO.
Oberon
Well-Known Member
I use UKNHCP trimmers because I was tired of being relegated to the farrier's apprentice, who one day decided to perform a bit of veterinary surgery on my horse's feet by digging into live tissue on the sole and caused him to be stood in pools of blood.
Why he did this to my boy's healthy feet, I will never know. NO explanation was given by either the apprentice or 'supervising' farrier.
I didn't know enough at the time to go nuts. Since becoming part of the 'barefoot taliban' I have learnt as much as I can about feet. Nowadays I would go nuts and take the appropriate punitive action!
I wish people wouldn't get so defensive about shoeing their horses. It's none of my business if an owner chooses to put shoes on their own horse.
But when said horse has a problem and taking the shoes off MAY help, I wish people wouldn't refuse to look at it as an option because they have THE horse that could NEVER manage without shoes.
A barefoot trimmer (a GOOD barefoot trimmer) could look at things from a different angle and maybe find that piece of the puzzle that would help.
Is that really a bad thing?
I know my trimmers are not evil, fluffy, money grabbing, cultists.
They routinely advise owners to shoe if they feel the horse needs it.
Why he did this to my boy's healthy feet, I will never know. NO explanation was given by either the apprentice or 'supervising' farrier.
I didn't know enough at the time to go nuts. Since becoming part of the 'barefoot taliban' I have learnt as much as I can about feet. Nowadays I would go nuts and take the appropriate punitive action!
I wish people wouldn't get so defensive about shoeing their horses. It's none of my business if an owner chooses to put shoes on their own horse.
But when said horse has a problem and taking the shoes off MAY help, I wish people wouldn't refuse to look at it as an option because they have THE horse that could NEVER manage without shoes.
A barefoot trimmer (a GOOD barefoot trimmer) could look at things from a different angle and maybe find that piece of the puzzle that would help.
Is that really a bad thing?
I know my trimmers are not evil, fluffy, money grabbing, cultists.
They routinely advise owners to shoe if they feel the horse needs it.
Jesstickle
Well-Known Member
I don't think so.
If you're naughty enough then admin gives you an infraction. It's basically a point system, so the naughtier you are the more infraction points. If you get enough you get banned for a period or permanently if you're really bad
LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
Everyone focuses on the feet because that is what we can see. But of course the problem originates in the caecum (cecum US) and that problem is not solved by shoes.
So the horse can't feel it's feet, so we think 'fantastic' but it still has a problem in its gut, we just don't necessarily notice, doesn't mean its not there. Is that ok?
And the damage being done to the feet is still being done, but of course we can't see it.
It is possible (not always easy) to provide a horse friendly environment that meets all the criteria, keeps them well in every respect and barefoot sound.
Unfortunately in this country we have deliberately bred and cultivated large swathes of pasture which is entirely unsuitable for some horses.
If someone made me eat unsuitable food every day (I get IBS) and covered up the consequences by numbing the pain, I am not sure I would thank them for it, because I know that although I might be pain free, the damage was still being done and would have long term consequences.
It's another way of thinking and not acceptable to everyone, but each to their own.
mrdarcy
Well-Known Member
Hummmmnnnn. The act of putting on shoes doesn't stop the feet of extra sugar sensitive horses being affected by grass. The damage will still occur - inflammation of the supercorium, leading to weak white lines, white line disease, brittle hoof wall, hoof wall cracks, inability to keep shoes on, thin, flat soles, intermittent lameness, abscesses, short strides, pottery on hard ground, bruising of soles etc etc etc Sound familiar? A horse that is extremely sugar intolerant is sugar intolerant whether it's shod or not. How many horses have we all come across with poor quality feet? As you've described yourself, your own TB had very flat feet, bruised easily and was frequently having abscesses. Shoes didn't stop these things or improve the feet. Cutting out the sugar/grass would have done.
Jesstickle
Well-Known Member
I have absolutely no reason to think he had any dietary problems. He was a healthy little soul, only ate hay and readigrass and real grass of course.
He was basically born with flat feet. Some people are too. It doesn't mean they have a bad diet. It means they have flat feet. Sometimes issues can be genetic. All sorts of health issues can be hereditary. Are you saying that every dog born with hip dysplaysia or every deaf white dog in the world is a product of its environment?
LucyPriory
Well-Known Member
ditto darcy