onemoretime
Well-Known Member
Completely agree with this.
Can any one help? or has this happened to you?
- Thread starter Tessflower42
- Start date
Completely agree with this.
Tessflower42
Active Member
Thank you.... I can not find anything that states this. I have know found a solicitor so keep my fingers crossed x
Tessflower42
Active Member
i have NFU insurance but I am not in their union.
PeterNatt
Well-Known Member
I am amazed that HSE became involved as normally they would only investigate an incident if a person was seriously injured. They can of course inspect premises but when they have done that with us they were proactive but we most certainly never were charged just given some good sensible advice. I would want to know why they ever became involved and what issues they wanted to resolve.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
I cannot believe that farmers have to deal with such BS. I can't blame them for selling off. People seem to forget the whole "no farms no food" thing. I really think not being held accountable for your actions has gone a bit wild. Call me salty, but if you're walking through a cow field, you accept the risk of having a run in with a cow. God forbid you have to stick to a dreaded foot path AND leash your dog. On heck no! Don't worry about your waste either, someone else will take care of it. It doesn't matter when you litter the countryside.
I'd really want proof and definitive answers before I forked over 4k.
I'd really want proof and definitive answers before I forked over 4k.
sharni
Well-Known Member
if you have a policy with them then you are a member automatically.
sharni
Well-Known Member
are we sure this isnt a troll thread? its so bizarre
Tessflower42
Active Member
no serious. Its all true, Castle farm in kings stanley..
It's unbelievable.. a bloke walking his dog, letting it run around not sticking to the foot path, cows in the field, always have done, nothing has changed over 30 years. Cows are tame. my dogs are with them. So say this dog got kicked. no proof. next we heard is when HSE came, MATT Goode. They wanted to come again and highways came out too SARAH MACLAWY LOWE. They both witnessed how people abused the fields and never staying to the rules. People in the bottom of the field, whilst dog was running the hedge. They took photos of signs etc. kissing gates, well kept farm, dogs kissing the cows. us tickling them..
This is why i am so angry, If you have dangerous animals on a farm, you get rid of them. you dont have them on foot paths.. that bloody common sense.
They say we must fence of and put more robust signs up..
BUT WE DONT HAVE TO PUT FENCE UP< WE DONT EVEN HAVE TO PUT SIGNS UP
((Tessflower42
Active Member
but you are not... I didn't realise until all this has started. You can have your insurance with them, but unless you join the union, you don't get any help!!
Tessflower42
Active Member
you were very lucky then. I have tried speaking to Adam near us, but he can't get involved, I have messaged country file to see if they want to publish it.. its just unbelievable. They want us to put up fences, and more robust signs, I have pages and pages. It truly is upsetting
emilylou
Well-Known Member
I’m sorry. This is so awful. As the law does not state you must put signs up or fences I would do nothing and pay nothing.
But, I am a stubborn ***** who doesn’t mind a battle when there’s good reason and I know it’s not the ‘right’ way to proceed. It’s just so awful that farmers have to deal with this sort of nonsense at all.
But, I am a stubborn ***** who doesn’t mind a battle when there’s good reason and I know it’s not the ‘right’ way to proceed. It’s just so awful that farmers have to deal with this sort of nonsense at all.
Tessflower42
Active Member
the solicitor I thought could help, has now come back with this...
Hi Teresa,
Thank you for the further information below. I have checked with the Litigation department and they have confirmed that unfortunately they are unable to assist you with your enquiry as this is a specialist area of Law.
We do not have a referral for you I am afraid, though it would potentially be a Solicitor who specialises with public liability.
Good Luck,
Kind regards
Lisa
Hi Teresa,
Thank you for the further information below. I have checked with the Litigation department and they have confirmed that unfortunately they are unable to assist you with your enquiry as this is a specialist area of Law.
We do not have a referral for you I am afraid, though it would potentially be a Solicitor who specialises with public liability.
Good Luck,
Kind regards
Lisa
SussexbytheXmasTree
Well-Known Member
In the previous link I gave there is a link to the query and dispute process.
If you have not followed this then do.
https://www.hse.gov.uk/fee-for-intervention/assets/docs/ffi-queries-dispute-process.pdf
I guess you’ve two things you could dispute the former may have a different process. 1) that there is a material breach 2) the charge is excessive
As to HSE charging now and perhaps not in the past you’ll find that the government over the last decade has decreased central funding of the public sector and expects them to seek payment from business wherever possible to carry out their functions.
https://www.shponline.co.uk/news/hses-funding-will-be-cut-100m-over-ten-years/
I do not work for HSE but in a different regulated sector in case you wonder.
If you have not followed this then do.
https://www.hse.gov.uk/fee-for-intervention/assets/docs/ffi-queries-dispute-process.pdf
I guess you’ve two things you could dispute the former may have a different process. 1) that there is a material breach 2) the charge is excessive
As to HSE charging now and perhaps not in the past you’ll find that the government over the last decade has decreased central funding of the public sector and expects them to seek payment from business wherever possible to carry out their functions.
https://www.shponline.co.uk/news/hses-funding-will-be-cut-100m-over-ten-years/
I do not work for HSE but in a different regulated sector in case you wonder.
Tessflower42
Active Member
Hi, Yes I have disputed it. they say i have breached the law, under section 3 (1) health and safety at work etc act 1974
The only thing I am after, which no solicitor will give me and I can not find anywhere is....
Is there a law to say I must put signs up and I must fence off?
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
According to guidance from HSE that I posted earlier (https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ais17ew.pdf) then I don't think so. Certain types of bull cannot be grazed on footpaths and others only if they are in with cows/heifers. On signage, they say it is "good practice" to have signs warning about bulls or cows with calves, but not that it is a legal requirement. However, you said that you had signs up. Personally, I would print off the linked HSE guidance and stick it in an envelope along with a letter stating that as far as you can see from the enclosed document, you already comply with their own guidance. Refer specifically to the points they have raised - that 1, according to their guidelines, it is not a requirement to fence off footpaths (they only say it should be considered if "reasonably practicable" which you can argue it is not, due to the shape of the field), and 2, that you already had clear signs up warning about cows (include photos) and would like someone to explain to you where in their guidelines it says that laminated signs cannot be used. Ask if they could clarify, with all this in mind, exactly how you have broken the law under the health and safety at work act. I do think it is worth going back to them as that is a hefty bill to foot and it seems rather unfair - I don't see how they can say you have broken the law if you have complied with their guidelines? Do not accept a vague letter in response - they can't just keep repeating that you have breached the law, they need to explain very clearly how you have done so.
View
Well-Known Member
This is the relevant section of the 1974 HSAW etc act
(1)It shall be the duty of every employer to conduct his undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that persons not in his employment who may be affected thereby are not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety.
So you need to have carried out a risk assessment to identify the hazards, who might be harmed, the severity of the possible harm, what existing measures are in place to reduce the possibility of harm and identify what else you can to.
Now if you are only aware of one person with a dog not on a lead being harmed, then it might be viewed as reasonable to put up signs about keeping dogs on leads. If there had been more than one incident, or walkers without dogs had found themselves in difficulty, fencing off the footpath would seem more reasonable.
An incident has occurred, so you have a duty to review your risk assessment and control measures.
The take away from this is that common sense in the public is not actually very common!
(1)It shall be the duty of every employer to conduct his undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that persons not in his employment who may be affected thereby are not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety.
So you need to have carried out a risk assessment to identify the hazards, who might be harmed, the severity of the possible harm, what existing measures are in place to reduce the possibility of harm and identify what else you can to.
Now if you are only aware of one person with a dog not on a lead being harmed, then it might be viewed as reasonable to put up signs about keeping dogs on leads. If there had been more than one incident, or walkers without dogs had found themselves in difficulty, fencing off the footpath would seem more reasonable.
An incident has occurred, so you have a duty to review your risk assessment and control measures.
The take away from this is that common sense in the public is not actually very common!
Tessflower42
Active Member
Thank you for being a massive help ...
Tessflower42
Active Member
Hi, we have signs up, big A4 signs and have done for years, I change them slightly every year so hopefully people will take note. I even have our local police lady involved who is a dog lover and she has made me some extra signs with the police badge on it. No person has ever got injured, a dog chasing cows has..
I did a risk assement because we are farm assured, well was, everything has to be crossed and ticked..
They want us to put fences up but in a rectangular field with 3 exits/entrances its not possible. They were here, they walked amongst the cows, we were tickling behind their ears.. dogs kissing them.
We have put up electric fences, to public pulling them down and also complaining their dog has had a electric shock, bearing in mind we gave them 2 meters and bright yellow signs every other section!
We have a lot of deer's here to, can you imagine a deer getting caught up in it, then we would get done for cruelty!!
it just a nightmare. But I am know going to put a letter together as the person before has helped me out a bit here. The HSE even took photo's of the signs!! its a joke, well it's not i have gone from being mad to just crumbling and crying..
irishdraft
Well-Known Member
I cannot help you OP other than say it sounds an awful situation to be in. I hope you can get it resolved.
Merry neddy man
Well-Known Member
Have you contacted any of those suggested by Peter Natt #42 ?
PeterNatt
Well-Known Member
There is some very good advice here, which i hope that you will consider actioning.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
I should stress that I have no legal or HSE experience. I just seems logical to me that, if they are going to expect you to foot a hefty bill, then they absolutely must show, fully and clearly, how you have breached the law they say you have. I would also argue that you ought to have been made aware when they visited that you could end up footing the bill - was this communicated to you in any way (either on paper or in writing)?Thank you for being a massive help ...
PurBee
Well-Known Member
What a ridiculous scenario for you to endure. You put up signs, have police verify and assist with more signs. Youve insured yourselves. You’ve Followed the law.
It doesnt take 27hours for a HSE bod to inspect the paths, to see youre all lawful and the complaint was the complainer’s fault for having the dog off the lead. The HSE should be charging the complainer the bill to investigate this, not the farmer following the law.
As you have been seen by the hse to be following the law then the investigation funds come out of the ‘public purse’ of the local authority, not billed to the innocent party!
You can’t help it if public footpaths go across your lands, and have done as the law requires.
(Does a public footpath On private land mean that public footpath is essentially really owned by the local authority?)
I would compose an article, including pics of the footpath and signs, and expressing how the HSE handled the case and submit the article to all major national agricultural publications, aswell as local paperS and the daily mail....the whole lot!
I would appeal until the cows came home the HSE’s bill.
I cant believe you cant find an agri solicitor to aid you....are they all afraid of HSE law or something?
It doesnt take 27hours for a HSE bod to inspect the paths, to see youre all lawful and the complaint was the complainer’s fault for having the dog off the lead. The HSE should be charging the complainer the bill to investigate this, not the farmer following the law.
As you have been seen by the hse to be following the law then the investigation funds come out of the ‘public purse’ of the local authority, not billed to the innocent party!
You can’t help it if public footpaths go across your lands, and have done as the law requires.
(Does a public footpath On private land mean that public footpath is essentially really owned by the local authority?)
I would compose an article, including pics of the footpath and signs, and expressing how the HSE handled the case and submit the article to all major national agricultural publications, aswell as local paperS and the daily mail....the whole lot!
I would appeal until the cows came home the HSE’s bill.
I cant believe you cant find an agri solicitor to aid you....are they all afraid of HSE law or something?
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
I feel as though their "case" against you resembles that of a piece of Swiss cheese.
Tessflower42
Active Member
I have to join, but also they may not be able to help because its already happened! so waiting for a call back from them.
NFU i have to because a union member because i spoke to them at the beginning and they said again wont help because it has already happend. I need for someone with a legal understanding to help.. and there's no one. its crap
Tessflower42
Active Member
it so unbelievable. I do think they are afraid of the HSE. I put sign up, but thats not even a law, its seen as good practice. this is what i am struggling with, no law has been broken..
chaps89
Well-Known Member
It's odd that the latest solicitor you have contacted has suggested you need someone specialising in liability law.
That is definitley different to agriculture and might explain why the agricultural focussed solicitors you've approached previously haven't been able to help.
I guess it becomes a liability issue if someone were to be injured and then claim against you, especially if there is a HSE report saying you need to do x,y,z (fence paths off etc) and that's not done.
Maybe find a liability specialist and see what they say, if that's what's been suggested by a professional who has reviewed the case?
That is definitley different to agriculture and might explain why the agricultural focussed solicitors you've approached previously haven't been able to help.
I guess it becomes a liability issue if someone were to be injured and then claim against you, especially if there is a HSE report saying you need to do x,y,z (fence paths off etc) and that's not done.
Maybe find a liability specialist and see what they say, if that's what's been suggested by a professional who has reviewed the case?
18hhOlls&Me
Well-Known Member
That shouldn’t matter, they are an insurance company I have a policy with them for my horse, I’m not a farmer or in a farmers union. That’s just their name....If you pay for and possess one of their policies you can claim on it, end of story!
Tessflower42
Active Member
you would think so.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I would apply to move the footpaths to the edges of fields and fence them off .
This not an expensive process you can the paperwork yourself of course the fencing will cost
This not an expensive process you can the paperwork yourself of course the fencing will cost