Can anyone help RSPCA identify those in this video?

minigal said:
Re: loading - I have to admit to observing with interest the troubles people have loading when at shows or other "dos" I particularly like seeing people giving their horses a "run up" - all mine can manage to walk up the ramp without needing momentum to get up there.
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hehe I thought EXACTLY the same until we got a bad loader only when leaving the yard never on the way home.. if you can get him walking forwards even trotting (a struggle..) he'll go on first time no problems.. if you amble up to the box it ends in rears and generally p***es about but goes on in the end...

However I would never justify using a cattle prod on a horse, and if someone tried to load some of the horses I've worked it the way she tried to load that horse there she'd have teeth missing and serious rope burns on those hands! I feel SO sorry for the horse he must have been terrified standin in that box! :( Well what goes around comes around and if he ever backs into/glances off an electric fence with one of those delightful girlies onboard they're gonners!
 
Good GOD but there's a load of muppets in the horse world!! Well on HHO anyway! SUCH extremes of opinion, with so few with middle of the road common sense! I genuinely feel sorry for the horses in the care of so many people, including some of the 'rescue' societies!!
 
Spins said:
hehe I thought EXACTLY the same until we got a bad loader only when leaving the yard never on the way home.. if you can get him walking forwards even trotting (a struggle..) he'll go on first time no problems.. if you amble up to the box it ends in rears and generally p***es about but goes on in the end...

However I would never justify using a cattle prod on a horse, and if someone tried to load some of the horses I've worked it the way she tried to load that horse there she'd have teeth missing and serious rope burns on those hands! I feel SO sorry for the horse he must have been terrified standin in that box! :( Well what goes around comes around and if he ever backs into/glances off an electric fence with one of those delightful girlies onboard they're gonners!
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Oooh I am not knocking it if it works! However I have found it amusing to watch a pony (and it's normally a tiny little thing with a very smug expression) being run towards the ramp and it grinding to a halt yet again. It will, of course load in time but only when it feels the time is right and it has driven its poor handler (normally a flustered mother) to tears of frustration.
 
Although I don't personally agree with their method, I can think of far worse ways of getting a horse to load.
What disgusts me is their implementation of the method. For those who haven't bothered to watch the video, the horse is being stubborn, not loading. Just as it's taking a few steps forward the stupid blonde with no hat steps forward and cattle prods it. Funnily enough the horse goes absolutely nuts, rears up, nearly lands on the stupid blonde (shame it didn't) and funnily enough is even more stubborn afterwards. The second time it's prodded, same reaction. Her timing was appalling and really upset the horse when there is no need. I bet the horse is still a tricky loader.
 
suzysparkle said:
Big difference between a second and 2hrs. Your Horse was very very lucky. The two I mention were braindead a lot quicker than that. One I used to own and happened after I sold her on (to an excellent home). The other, well, I shan't go into details, was a friend of mine's Horse.
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Gosh, maybe 2 hours was an exaggeration on their part then!! I also don't know what powered the fence!

Either way I've never met a horse who couldn't even jump tape on the floor in case it got her :(

Makes you think though, we all use tape so freely (and some fences look appaulling, slack tape, broken posts etc!) and yet we don't think of the consequences!
 
amandap said:
Arghhhhhhhhhh not that one. This is my pet hate! The thinking that because we spend fortunes of money on horses that they somehow 'owe' us!
If we want them to travel we have to teach them how to load and convince them that we can drive carefully, that the trailer or lorry is safe or alter it so it is safe to that horse. We shouldn't expect anything imo. So yes it's too much to ask unless we do our bit in training and preparation etc. If we haven't done it why should we have the right to force a horse onto a trailer, especially using pain? I bet he must get to that show or move house now and really doesn't want to loose money when the trailer is rented etc. :rolleyes:

My horses don't even know money exists let alone our obsession with it being so important... they have no idea that humans think and often insist they should get their monies worth. :confused:

Runs and hides from the onslaught of people that believe horse do owe us for what we spend on them...
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If you read what you quoted, I actually did say that we need to provide safe transport and drive well. I also said that I would never use such a method if the Horse was afraid. I would spend the time. You do get Horses who are stubborn and you do see the methods I mantioned used. That is what I was getting at. What is abuse and what isn't.

FWIW I used to own one who was terrified of loading, even walking through a doorway. I spent a very long time getting him over this, with success, and the only method I used was a lot patience.

My point was that if you know your Horse well enough to know he or she is taking the **** then people do resort to the methods I mentioned. Oh - and no I don't think my Horse owes me anything. That said, if he's naughty (very very rare) he gets a slap with a whip, which is probably no worse than a cattle prod. However, if you didn't have money you wouldn't have Horses, food, a house, a computer, the internet etc etc so don't even go there. Very few people can afford field ornaments after all.
 
Serenity087 said:
Gosh, maybe 2 hours was an exaggeration on their part then!! I also don't know what powered the fence!

Either way I've never met a horse who couldn't even jump tape on the floor in case it got her :(

Makes you think though, we all use tape so freely (and some fences look appaulling, slack tape, broken posts etc!) and yet we don't think of the consequences!
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I don't know what powered the fences either.

Mine hates being zapped by a fence. Will trot round in disgust for minutes. However, if I lay the tape on the ground he calmly steps over. I guess it depends on the Horse :-)

But yes, it is a good point. You see a lot of badly maintained electric fencing that just looks flimsy and asking for an accident.
 
kirsty17 said:
How do you think she gets it back in at shows? Do you think she takes the prod with her for everyone to see?
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Well precisely!

The fact that the cattle prod was shown beforehand, being 'tested' on wire, and the fact one of the morons didn't even try to load the horse, while the other moron waited to pounce with the prod at the ready, shows it was done purely for their own twisted idea of entertainment.
Not to mention the camera man/woman zooming in on the prod, and filming the episode.
Just a bunch of ***** making complete arses of themselves....
 
Amandap - to save you looking for the comparison :

suzysparkle said:
Amandap (copied and pasted)
If we want them to travel we have to teach them how to load and convince them that we can drive carefully, that the trailer or lorry is safe or alter it so it is safe to that horse. We shouldn't expect anything imo. So yes it's too much to ask unless we do our bit in training and preparation etc.

So what exactly are you getting at then??
I have basically said the same as you?
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For those who would dismiss me I'm not bleating that a half tonne of horse does not need controlling or that a slap/crack is needed if things go awry.

What I find strange a so-called horse forum mainly supports such idiotic actions. You clearly see the handler either deliberately or frankly stupidly doing little or nothing to encourage the horse to load up. And in fact standing in his way. Then we get sparky yellow jumping in all too willing to shock the horse for not obeying immediately whatever they expect him to understand.

Only for the clearly confused and frightened horse I would find this laughable. For both the cold people with their pre-judged action of shits and giggles filmed for youtube or the gullible who reason that that this is right.

My point is what kind of weirdos will film themselves sparking an electric prod off a barbed fence before shooting footage of a horse getting the same and laughing about it too, regardless of the horses manners (and frankly he didn't appear more than slightly hesitant eitherway)?

Why is that acceptable?
 
ezililaur said:
Taken from their YouTube chanel as a reply to comments I assume:

"This horse is 3yrs old and has been travelled regularly since a foal and always loaded first time, now she is bigger she has decided she would rather rear and jump on our heads, so surely this is a better option than having it rearing and causing an accident to itself or us. I take it that by searching for this video you are having trouble loading a horse, good luck with mamby pambying it and waisting hours of your time being taken for a mug by a horse. Kind regards mr turbin. :-)"

"rearing and causing an accident" Did that prod prevent that then? not from where I was sitting.

I thought they were vile, this response says it all.
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If this is the case I would look at their driving skills.
They need to make sure they are giving it a quiet, calm ride, cornering carefully and not scaring/stressing the horse. Also the box/lorry needs to be free from scary rattles etc while travelling.
I believe once you get a horse in the lorry if it always has a comfortable journey it will load ok in the future.
 
It once took 3 hours to get my horse in to a trailer. He was soaked in sweat and kept rearing and running away, he was striking out with his front hooves and we had tried everything we could think of. I'm not saying I would use the cattle prod method but I would have been very tempted :)
 
A reminder of the legal responsibility of horse ownership.
The Animal Welfare Act 2006 (“the Act”) requires you to ensure that any horse, pony, donkey or mule for which you are responsible, whether on a permanent or a temporary basis: has a suitable environment to live in; has a healthy diet; is able to behave normally; has appropriate company; and is protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease.

You are therefore not allowed, by law, to inflict pain on an animal deliberately.

This is not law because it is a whim, but because a lot of consultation and consideration has gone into considering the points for and against certain courses of action.

When you inflict pain on a horse you take away its trust, when you take away a horse's trust, you create untold future problems until you regain its trust again. Problem horses are dangerous, they can kill easier than a human without needing to pick up a weapon.

These two girls and their photographer are uneducated and inexperienced and think because the amount of electricity in an electric fence = that in an electric prod makes their behaviour okay.

The fact that the horse used to load and now doesn't shows that something has gone badly wrong, not with the horse, but with the handlers understanding of horses.

When I told my three year old son to get up in the morning he did so straight away, when I told him at thirteen he didn't. A cattle prod was inappropriate, I had to be more intelligent in my behaviour to get the result I wanted. If you can't find the solution to a problem, never choose violence as the answer.
 
bakedbean said:
Why are the RSPCA interested?
Whats the problem?
they are using a LEGAL cattle prod to load a horse...SO?

i've had one stuck on my arse..its just like a leccy fence jab..
horse wasnt that bothered was he?
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Baked Bean if you believe that using a cattle prod on a horse is an acceptable thing to do then I am gobsmacked and even more gobsmacked you would be so stupid and heartless to admit it on a equine forum!!!!
People use this forum to access and gain from the vast years and acres of expertise the members have and the valuable advice they freely give. I believe that MOST forum members love and want the best for their horses. Using a cattle prod on a horse is animal cruelty. Horses are extremely sensitive giving creatures - you obviously hadn't realised!!!
 
We have cattle and would never use a cattle prod on them. We have horses would never force them into an eletric fence to get a shock. Its a totally different thing to force a horse afterall it has no choice. Your applying the pain.

Cant they be bothered to show the horse its not scarey being loaded. Its called time and patience and this must have happend before for them to have a cattle prod.

Havent been able to watch the vid as its not there.
 
Baked bean hasn't said its ok to use a cattle prof, merely questioned the outcry over its use.

And for the poster who quotes the animal act (which is flimsy at best), I'm guessing you don't ride with a stick then.

Don't get me wrong, these woman's techniques are questionable. But let's keep a sense of proportion.
 
Funny that the rspca havent bothered to come out to a field full of starving horses that was reported to them on sunday but can be bothered spending time trying to trace someone on youtube.
 
darkhorse123 said:
you are surely a troll -or just evil ?????
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Darkhorse are you for real ???

How is bakedbean evil in doing that????

The chestnut in my pics is a nightmare to catch sometimes,I had tried every trick there is to catch him,couldn't get near him,I got in contact with a very well known horseman in how to catch him.He advised the same thing as bakedbean said,take everything away from him including water.

It worked and caught him the next day.
 
Dubs said:
Well precisely!

The fact that the cattle prod was shown beforehand, being 'tested' on wire, and the fact one of the morons didn't even try to load the horse, while the other moron waited to pounce with the prod at the ready, shows it was done purely for their own twisted idea of entertainment.
Not to mention the camera man/woman zooming in on the prod, and filming the episode.
Just a bunch of ***** making complete arses of themselves....
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^^^^ This!

That little episode was filmed for fun. That's got to be one of the most pathetic attempts at loading regardless of what happened beforehand (prior to the cattle prod being used).

Their main aim that day was to film zapping the horse.
 
It is surely a great thing to have this forum where there can be (mostly!) reasonable discussion about such an emotive subject. I am sure a lot of people reading this thread will be learning from it.

It is pretty disgusting how some approach loading horses. One owned by a girl here (since departed!) was beaten onto the lorry by the haulier so violently I had to leave the scene -- and I am not a bunny hugger by any means. That horse died 48 hours later, presumably from stress.

Another, in to meet the stallion, could not be caught and was only managable by shedding her off like cattle. When the owner (a professional livestock haulier) arrived with transport, the poor brute shot into the trailer like a bullet, obviously viewing the transport as a final sanctuary! I've never seen anything load as fast in my life! The owner remarked, "I believe in treating animals like animals". Clearly!

So, I agree with a lot of the posts on this thread -- both for and against. The trouble with using electricity is that the results are all too often unpredictable. An electric fence is fixed and the animal has a choice whether to touch it or not. Electric prods, electric collars, etc. are different, which is why Wales has banned the e-collar and Scotland will soon follow. I am sure a universal ban (which already applies in government establishments such as the police, prison service, MOD, etc) will follow in due course. These measures are unnecessary and should be replaced by good training. I believe there are restrictions on the use of cattle prods which could lead those two into court. The definition of cruelty is the infliction of unnecessary suffering -- and electric cattle prods, e-collars, etc. are unnecessary, except to the ignorant and stupid who won't learn and don't know any better.
 
Cant believe this thread is still going on and on about the same subject.

I did post a question on Pasties thread which was where and when had anyone said they used a cattle prod.

I didnt get a reply, theres a surprise;). There are some people on here who are pretty contensious and the fact that they started 2 other threads prove it.
 
suzysparkle said:
Amandap - to save you looking for the comparison :



Amandap (copied and pasted)
If we want them to travel we have to teach them how to load and convince them that we can drive carefully, that the trailer or lorry is safe or alter it so it is safe to that horse. We shouldn't expect anything imo. So yes it's too much to ask unless we do our bit in training and preparation etc.

So what exactly are you getting at then??
I have basically said the same as you?
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First, I did take your statement out of context and I apologise for that. I did actually say more or less the same, you are right but I didn't make clear that even if you have done the training etc. I still believe that having an attitude that horses do owe us somehow leaves the door open for us to stop looking at why we might be having problems in training or why a horse still behaves unpredictably or why suddenly a horse wont do something it has done willingly many times. It also leaves the door open for us to say tat the horse is being stubborn or doing it on purpose and perhaps allows us to excuse getting rough and hitting etc?
I hope this clears the point I am making better than my other attempt.

I've been thinking about the effect of using pain in training or getting a horse to cooperate. Some believe horses store memories as pictures and I do think this is a possibility. So if the horse in the video is doing this what might he be associating the pain with? What is in his memory picture that means pain?.. Human's? those particular girls? that van? all vans? ramps? colour of the van? markings on the van? certain noises that may be going on around? Lead ropes? Humans walking behind him?! How on earth do we know what the horse is storing up in it's memory banks? This might partly explain why some horses problems are especially difficult to get to the bottom of or why horses seem to do things for no apparent reason?
Pain seems to burn memories more deeply too...
 
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darkhorse123 said:
let me get this clear - you are all saying giving an electric shock ie pain and fear to your horse is ok????
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Are you being deliberately obtuse? Or is it that you cannot actually read and assimilate the words?

NO ONE has said it's ok to use a cattle prod to load a horse, what HAS been said is that a) No it is not actually illegal (at the moment) and b) why is it different to prodding cattle.

I find it absolutely hypocritical that people on here say that 'cattle are different', one saying that they were different to horses as they were not trained (trained not to feel pain?) and as for the poster who claimed that cows had hides whereas horses have skin, the crass stupidity of that comment just shows up her basic lack of knowledge.

As for the morons with the cattle prod, I agree with Dubs - the whole thing was a set up for the camera, the stupid inane giggling in the background is proof of this. Moron number 1 actually seems to set the horse up to fail in order to allow moron number 2 to use the cattle prod with bad timing, in fact there was a moment (between prods) that they had the opportunity to allow the horse to load, but no moron number 2 just had to use that prod. It is a wonder no one was hurt, not least of all the poor unfortunate horse.
 
Hello everyone!!! Still having fun???

Oh yes looks like it... 20 pages.. nice one amandap...
 
Mike007 said:
Personaly ,I thought they handled it very well. Jabbed twice (jolt like an electric fence) Loaded like a lamb. The timing and understanding of the horses mental stance were spot on.
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The timing with the prod was poor (as was the jerking of the lead) but they got lucky. I would not be at all surprised if they have continuing troubles loading this horse - worsening if their timing doesn't improve.
 
tallyho! said:
Hello everyone!!! Still having fun???

Oh yes looks like it... 20 pages.. nice one amandap...
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Lol! I must say I've learned loads about what not to post on H&H Forum. Having said that there are many calm and reasonable and sensible posters on this thread as well as those just getting defensive and using personal insult. :)

I wonder if anyone has identified the women/girls? ;)
 
bakedbean said:
i didnt quite call them morons
i would repost what i actually thought of those young ladies...but as someone button-pushed the first time, and it was deleted last night, i wont repeat, for fear of the wrath of TFC.
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Lol no you didn't BB, that was me :D

sits and waits for the button pushers
 
I can say, i would have thought about using one once. We had been trailered to a place for a hack, gone for a lovely ride and then when it came to loading again, my friends horse point blankly refused. It wasnt scared it just refused.
Lots of pulling, pushing, enticing with food, covering her head and spinning her, whips, lunge lines, tears, lots of swearing and an hour later we called the vet to sedate her. Another hour later and even more attempts she finally gives in. But if we had a prod we probably would have used it...

There are so many others in such a state around the country that im not going to spread the word about this.
And i find it ridiculous that so called adults shoot insults at each other and cant have a civilised debate.
 
joeanne said:
Nothing "big" in it, you dont know me from Adam, and those that do will tell you I am no advocate of cruelty, but there is nothing in that video (other than the complete misjudging of when to "zap" and lack of a hat) that strikes me as "cruel".
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Is it even possible to be objective about cruelty and abuse? Both seem, like beauty, to be in the eye of the beholder. (Anti-beauty or ugliness might be appropriate words for it!) Lots of people who watched the bumping reiner video couldn't see any cruelty or abuse; ditto Linda Parelli's handling of Barney, or Pat's handing of Catwalk.

How do we define what is "cruel"? Deliberately inflicting unnecessary suffering is one way to define it. How would this example be rated on that criterion? Clearly, the act of delivering an electric shock was deliberate, and it must have hurt, or at least been very unpleasant, so there was some suffering albeit short lived - although the fear created by the pain/unpleasantness could last a lot longer. So then, was it necessary? To prove necessity, you'd have to show that none of the alternatives worked or would have worked. I don't think that's possible here - though personally I would not be surprised if someone who believes that use of electric shocks is a valid training method failed even to try methods at the other end of the spectrum.
 
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