Can British breeding ever be anything but a bit crap?

[LEC]

1) our stud books are a joke. Too many and zero quality. I sent off for my foals new passport 2 weeks ago at the same time as one for wetherbys. My Wetherbys has been back a week already….

2) no quality checks for stallions. Grading are a joke. Too many geldings have their balls. No performance records.

3) breeding pathways are a joke - the foreign horses still mainly clear up at young horse champs. No promotion of British bred horses

4) futurity is political and about your face and stallions used not actual quality. How can a dressage bred foal be scoring highly for eventing?

I cannot see it getting any better either….

 

[ihatework]

The general crapness of our sports stud books, quality of a lot of our sports breeding programs (both mare and stallion), old school cliques and that shenanigans infuriated me greatly.

Im not quite sure what the answer is though. Everything is so disjointed.

There is I think trending improvement in dressage and to some extent sj, but still with a long way to go. And obviously a handful of commercial set ups that are also heading in the right direction.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

That and people breed their mares just cos they can. Which, whatever, you do you, but just because it has a uterus and can no longer be ridden at level you would like them to be ridden at doesn't mean instant broodmare. I see this so often. Yes, stallions need to be looked at as does the whole grading system, but I think the mares are hugely important too.

I get that some people think the only way they can afford another horse or one or decent quality is to breed their existing mare, but I do think they mentally leads to some mediocre horses being produced. Which, I suppose they have their place, we don't all need super stars, but it just irks me sometimes.

So I agree with what has already been mentioned, but also think some focus needs to be on the mares used for breeding as well as the stallions.

 

[honetpot]

There are some good stock that is bred from may look like unpromising mares, it depends what you are breeding for.
I used to look at older mares at PC, they would never have a foal because they were sound, easy to ride and generally nice people. They may not have been the text book, best to breed from, but as most riders do not have time or the skill to ride at a higher level, the Ford Fiesta type is probably more suitable for most.
Under the old HIS stallions, some nice competition horses were bred from common mares.

 

[Cortez]

In answer to your thread title, probably not.

 

[Palindrome]

I disagree, there are great British horses and great British riders. One of mine is AES, she is a top mare (a bit quirky but has a lot of Dutch and German). There are low quality horses bred everywhere.
What I love in the UK is that it's not just about pedigree and purebred everything. I have seen poor practices in France, just because a mare has good lines they think they can make money out of her, no thought given about her welfare, conformation and suitability under saddle.
There is one thing thought that I think we've got right in France and that's the stallion licensing and scoring (even if it's a bit young for my taste). There are some really good selle français stallions with a nice temperament which is sometimes difficult to find in warmbloods (particularly the Dutch warmbloods I think are very flashy but not always all there mentally).

 

[Cortez]

Can you name some of these great British horses that are competing at the moment ?

 

[TGM]

Can you name some of these great British horses that are competing at the moment ?

Are you meaning bred in the UK and registered with a GB studbook? There is Lordships Graffalo for a start, second at Badminton with Ros Canter and Jonelle Price's Classic Moet (achievements include a Badminton win, 2,020 British Eventing points, 10 five-star completions, one Olympic Games and one World Equestrian Games).

 

[Palindrome]

Can you name some of these great British horses that are competing at the moment ?

I would imagine lots of the cross country horses as that's what UK riders are most interested in. I found this H&HO article but I really don't know much about cross country so wouldn't be able to say much about it :
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/top-10-british-bred-event-horses-462433

In dressage you have the Mount st John stud who are doing quite well I think. In SJ, I have heard of the Billy stud.

 

[Cortez]

I would imagine lots of the cross country horses as that's what UK riders are most interested in. I found this H&HO article but I really don't know much about cross country so wouldn't be able to say much about it :
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/top-10-british-bred-event-horses-462433

In dressage you have the Mount st John stud who are doing quite well I think. In SJ, I have heard of the Billy stud.

That is from 2014, but thank you for posting. I'm genuinely interested as I'm not au fait with modern breeding these days. Seems like there's a lot of outside blood being used (nowt wrong with that, jolly sensible actually).

 

[Palindrome]

That is from 2014, but thank you for posting. I'm genuinely interested as I'm not au fait with modern breeding these days. Seems like there's a lot of outside blood being used (nowt wrong with that, jolly sensible actually).

Yes, my AES mare has a KWPN sire and hannoverian dam.
But then my Selle Français filly has an oldenburg crossed hannoverian sire (approved Selle Français) and is out of a KWPN mare who is by a trakhener stallion (Gribaldi). She also has Duc de Normandie (KWPN approved SF) on the KWPN damline so just going full circle.... That's for the dressage bred though, SJ you tend to get French lines.

I was looking up Glamourdale and he has just been approved Selle Français... the warmblood studbooks will just allow any horse that gets medals.

 

[Cortez]

the warmblood studbooks will just allow any horse that gets medals.

There's a lot more to it than that! The conformation, movement and trainability requirements are very strict.

 

[ycbm]

I don't honestly give a toss who is breeding the tiny proportion of horses which compete on an elite stage. What I want to see produced in this country are sane, sound all rounders for people who might hope to compete for their Riding Club or get safely round a BE 80/90/100 or just enjoy that horse at home.

Some of my best ones of those over the years have been mongrels of uncertain parentage.
.

 

[LEC]

I don't honestly give a toss who is breeding the tiny proportion of horses which compete on an elite stage. What I want to see produced in this country are sane, sound all rounders for people who might hope to compete for their Riding Club or get safely round a BE 80/90/100 or just enjoy that horse at home.

Some of my best ones of those over the years have been mongrels of uncertain parentage.
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I agree up to a point, but everyone has a stallion now and most in the uk are unlicensed so nobody has evaluated them for temperament or conformation or soundness. They could have horrific x rays which are genetic and nobody would be any the wiser. Take Connemaras which are the bastion of successful crosses for amateurs they are actually quite controlled as need full papers and to be evaluated. I also don’t think it’s a surprise that even at 80-100 level now there will be an element of good breeding in the horse. It’s pretty rare now even at 90/100 level to see unrecorded breeding as the quality of horses has improved a lot. What isn’t done, is a stallion who produces good reliable stock is given the accolades of being wonderfully average.

 

[HappyHackerK8]

I don't honestly give a toss who is breeding the tiny proportion of horses which compete on an elite stage. What I want to see produced in this country are sane, sound all rounders for people who might hope to compete for their Riding Club or get safely round a BE 80/90/100 or just enjoy that horse at home.

Some of my best ones of those over the years have been mongrels of uncertain parentage.
.

???

 

[Prancerpoos]

But..we have the thoroughbred. Maybe we just be content with that as TBs make up a fair proportion of WB ancestry around the world?

 

[RachelFerd]

It's definitely a total mess. I mean, I ended up buying a British bred horse beaches the rubbish-ness of the studbooks here has essentially meant he was better value than other continental or Irish options... But more fool the breeding community and studbooks here, basically.

 

[shortstuff99]

Duke of Britain is British bred, now competing for Germany. All the Hawtins and MSJ horses are pretty good internationally.

We also have some good PRE breeding in the UK currently.

 

[Cortez]

We also have some good PRE breeding in the UK currently.

Goodness, I can’t agree with that - have you ever been to look at horses in Spain? There’s simply no comparison.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I do think some people just breed their mares for the sake of it. Say they want the foal then foal doesn’t turn out to be the sex/colour/type they wanted and punt it and breed the mare again until they get what they want.

Unless it’s proven to be safe sane good confo and good record even at low level I don’t think it should be bred from. Breeding from lame horses I don’t think is right either ?

I have a pure bred welsh D, he’s fab and flashy and well put together with a wonderful temperament and good breeding but I took his balls off as soon as they were both there as there wasn’t a need for another D stallion IMO. I wanted a good gelding.

 

[shortstuff99]

Goodness, I can’t agree with that - have you ever been to look at horses in Spain? There’s simply no comparison.

Yes I have and actually there are a couple of studs in the UK that compare pretty well.

ETA a lot of studs in Spain have now started breeding giants that look like Irish Drafts, and fancy coloured horses that have the most sketch conformation. Not all brilliance in Spain either.

 

[ycbm]

It's definitely a total mess. I mean, I ended up buying a British bred horse beaches the rubbish-ness of the studbooks here has essentially meant he was better value than other continental or Irish options... But more fool the breeding community and studbooks here, basically.

Your post also reads "we have good British horses and they cost less".
.

 

[stangs]

The interesting thing about the comments that come up on British breeding is that it's always about sport horses. Not even TBs get a mention. There's a lot of work being done to maintain and improve our native breeds - look at the Eriskay SPARKS program - but, no, it's just breeding WBs that matters.

 

[RachelFerd]

Your post also reads "we have good British horses and they cost less".
.

Cost less because the whole set-up is so totally disorganised that they are unmarketable outside of the UK until they have significant performance records.

And the breeding is generally haphazard anyway.

 

[ycbm]

Cost less because the whole set-up is so totally disorganised that they are unmarketable outside of the UK until they have significant performance records.

And the breeding is generally haphazard anyway.

I'm happy with that. Costs less is good for me. And recorded breeding is no guarantee of performance. My three worst buys were 2 KWPNs and a Westfalian-passported Hanoverian, all with GP breeding on both sides. My 4th well bred horse, a KWPN with elite breeding, I sold because he hateed jumping and he made me a lot of money to go for pure dressage. But in retrospect, he probably had kissing spines.

Back in the 80s Riding Club Novice was 2ft 9, 84cm, and there were no classes smaller than that at most local shows. We've lost sight of how much "ordinary" horses with no special breeding are capable of.
.

 

[ycbm]

ETA a lot of studs in Spain have now started breeding giants

What is it with the 17 hand Lusitanos?! I don't know why they've done it.
.

 

[shortstuff99]

What is it with the 17 hand Lusitanos?! I don't know why they done it.
.

To sell to the American and European market as they think bigger horses = better for dressage (and for bigger riders).

All they get instead is weirdly long hocks.

 

[Cortez]

Yes I have and actually there are a couple of studs in the UK that compare pretty well.

ETA a lot of studs in Spain have now started breeding giants that look like Irish Drafts, and fancy coloured horses that have the most sketch conformation. Not all brilliance in Spain either.

No, not all brilliance, but that’s true of any breeding, anywhere. I completely agree re the giant, candy coloured horses BTW, but I was told that they have started breeding these type “for the foreigners”. I’ve looked many times at British bred PRE’s, but there really is no comparison with what’s available in Spain, especially for the type of horse that I look for (very traditional).

 

[Xmasha]

1) our stud books are a joke. Too many and zero quality. I sent off for my foals new passport 2 weeks ago at the same time as one for wetherbys. My Wetherbys has been back a week already….

2) no quality checks for stallions. Grading are a joke. Too many geldings have their balls. No performance records.

3) breeding pathways are a joke - the foreign horses still mainly clear up at young horse champs. No promotion of British bred horses

4) futurity is political and about your face and stallions used not actual quality. How can a dressage bred foal be scoring highly for eventing?

I cannot see it getting any better either….

1) agree about about certain WB/sport horse focused stud books. The turnaround on passports IMO has no bearing on the quality of the stud book. I sent off a foal passport for KWPN it took forever, however my SHB(GB) was back within a week. Its all about timing, im guessing they are inundated around october time, whereas i sent mine off July

2) Im far from an expert on Stallions, but even ive been bemused at some that have been 'Graded' .

3) Breeding pathways .. im asuming you are referring to the equine pathway? Its relativel new, give them time !
4) Futurity i totally disagree about it being political/face fits etc. Ive known 3 first time ( one mare owners ) breeders that have done relatively well and both ended up in the magazine and one at the awards ceremony. My IDx always come away holding there own against others. the futurity look at the horse in front of them, they use to take the breeding into account, but now they focus on what they see. So the dressage bred foal may well fit the eventing model as a foal. It may not have the movement for dressage so the owner /breeder puts it in the eventing section. Yet again, the futurity in the scheme of things is a relatively new scheme, ive been going for 13 years and it is evolving give it time. These schemes need our support and over time we will hopefully start to see some results.

I have spoken to the BEF/futurity and asked them to add an extra section we need an allrounder category. To promote quality british breeding for the RC market. They have a section for endurance , so cant see why they cant find a way to add this in.

If you look at the irish market that has grants/input from the government. The british industry as far as im aware gets very little/if anything.
We do have reputable studs as someone else has mentioned .. Brendan Stud, MSJ, Billy stud etc. But you will never get away from backyard breeders, they are here , in Ireland, and i dont doubt for one minute on the continent too.

 

[RachelFerd]

I'm happy with that. Costs less is good for me. And recorded breeding is no guarantee of performance. My three worst buys were 2 KWPNs and a Westfalian-passported Hanoverian, all with GP breeding on both sides. My 4th well bred horse, a KWPN with elite breeding, I sold because he hateed jumping and he made me a lot of money to go for pure dressage. But in retrospect, he probably had kissing spines.

Back in the 80s Riding Club Novice was 2ft 9, 84cm, and there were no classes smaller than that at most local shows. We've lost sight of how much "ordinary" horses with no special breeding are capable of.
.

It really wouldn't be harmful though to have a decent integrated performance and breeding database that helped us breed more of those nice "ordinary" horses with a bit of sensible use of data and insight.