Can British breeding ever be anything but a bit crap?

[ycbm]

Although, hilariously, when researching him before purchase, I think @ycbm posted negative comments about his sire on this forum - which I chose to ignore on the basis that there were enough horses he'd produced out there doing exactly what I want him to do.

Can you point me to that please.
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[ycbm]

I just don't understand why anyone would choose *not* to use additional insight and knowledge to make these expensive kind of decisions.

Because it increases prices, and you have no whole life data to prove that it makes a blind bit of difference for the average buyer, who you want to force into it by banning them from competition unless they are on a horse whose parentage is recorded.
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[Caol Ila]

You'll find breeders of all breeds, in all countries, with that same knowledge of their animals and bloodlines. Hopefully! And people who want to buy those horses. I did. My mare has bloodlines that can be traced to the 16th century.

I'm just saying that there are a lot of owners who aren't bothered. More than you'd think. These owners will happily buy the cheap (ish) imports from Ireland, which is why the market for such animals is huge.

It's hard to talk about 'British breeding' as a whole, because all breeds have their own thing. Highlands, for instance, are very much controlled (other than at Dallas...lol). I was reading your posts as referring to sporthorse breeds and the lackadaisical manner in which that's managed, as compared to what you see with WB horses in Europe.

 

[RachelFerd]

Because it increases prices, and you have no whole life data to prove that it makes a blind bit of difference for the average buyer, who you want to force into it by banning them from competition unless they are on a horse whose parentage is recorded.
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I mean, that's a different thread, and again, a totally misrepresented point. Which is that if you mandate recording of parentage for participation in competition, over an extended period of time in order to make sure it doesn't negatively impact anyone who has currently bought a horse with no recorded parentage, that over time, it would allow for better data collection and more informed decision making about breeding and purchasing. And as far as I'm concerned, that could be just as helpful for someone looking for a RC allrounder as it is for someone looking for a Badminton horse.

 

[Xmasha]

No. You are wilfully misunderstanding me, and I don't much appreciate being called stupid when that isn't what I said.

I'd prefer to buy them because they are cheaper and my experience is that in buying performance bred horses you pay a lot more with no more chance that they will turn out to be a good'un.

For a lower level rider who does not need a horse with a big movement/jump to achieve their goals, paying more for no more certainty of soundness, temperament and performance is pointless.

I find your attitude completely perplexing for someone who earlier in the thread told us you bought a less well bred British horse because it was cheaper.
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i genuinely dont understand your point. Wouldnt it be worthwhile if breeders of natives / RC allrounders heinz 57 actually did the job right and produced /bred horses that had traceability. This would in time show up the lines that produced the more sane /sound horses which the amateur market needs ( and therefore letting the poor lines die out), rather than indiscriminate breeding like puppy farms .
Im one of those amateur riders who just wanted a nice easy horse to love and have fun with. I wanted to make an informed choice, so i could buy for life.

It doesnt cost much more to breed a horse with recorded lines .

 

[ycbm]

I mean, that's a different thread, and again, a totally misrepresented point. Which is that if you mandate recording of parentage for participation in competition, over an extended period of time in order to make sure it doesn't negatively impact anyone who has currently bought a horse with no recorded parentage, that over time, it would allow for better data collection and more informed decision making about breeding and purchasing. And as far as I'm concerned, that could be just as helpful for someone looking for a RC allrounder as it is for someone looking for a Badminton horse.

You are again ignoring price and the fact that there appears to be no greater likelihood of getting a sane, long term sound horse of known breeding than a mongrel.
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[ycbm]

This would in time show up the lines that produced the more sane /sound horses which the amateur market needs ( and therefore letting the poor lines die out), rather than indiscriminate breeding like puppy farms .

only if you reliably record whole life data including animals never used in competition.

It doesnt cost much more to breed a horse with recorded lines .

No, but they sell for a lot less money as unproven youngsters.
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[Xmasha]

The late Janet George knew her horses inside out, she knew which mares would produce easy horses / sharper ones/ hunters etc etc No, not all of them where destined for the show ring, but she was honest about that !
I bought my ID girl off her, she was 100% spot on about her temperament and rideability. She did also refer to others she bred as @@@@, but they where suitable for other people. Thats what we need more of. My mare was not expensive nor was she cheap but what she is, is perfect for the amateur market. hence why shes now in foal. We need to breed from these types of mares. Ive been able to look back at her parentage and research lines. This has helped me purchase another broodmare who will hopefully be as easy and produce nice youngsters for the amateurs.

 

[Xmasha]

only if you reliably record whole life data including animals never used in competition.


No, but they sell for a lot less money as unproven youngsters.
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but as more and more studbooks are insisting on DNA, the proof will be in the pudding so to speak.
But most amateur buyers dont buy unproven youngstock. They buy 7-11yo that have been out and done a bit.

 

[Squeak]

I think the problem is that a lot of the data that we have at the moment is almost being used detrimentally. There are some breeders, that really know their horses and their lines and know what they have been bred for and that sort of knowledge is invaluable and what we should be aiming for.

Unfortunately, (because of money??) that doesn't seem to be what the WB/ Sporthorse breeders are aiming for. As we see on the continent, horses are being bred to make vast sums as young horses/ foals and most amateurs wouldn't be able to sit them let alone ride them and temperament and soundness seem secondary because the money has already been made out of them. Some horses, dressage in particular comes to mind, are almost becoming like pugs and german shepherds where they're being bred for certain aspects instead of actually being correct, well moving horses. At the moment this is what is unfortunately being demonstrated as where data on breeding can get us.

I love data and if it was possible to have it all recorded and be able to evaluate a horse's soundness, temperament and suitability that would be absolutely amazing but it feels like we're so so far from that and the costs that would be involved in getting there is impractical and if we did would the data and system actually end up just being abused as mentioned above rather than just the normal amateur being able to benefit from it.

 

[ycbm]

But most amateur buyers dont buy unproven youngstock. They buy 7-11yo that have been out and done a bit.

All the more reason why the parentage is irrelevant for the average buyer if the horse in front of you is doing what you need it to do and passes the vet. Especially if it's got a lower price tag and you don't care about knowing the breeding.

If people like I used to be want to buy a cheap mongrel and train it up to find out what its abilities are before selling it on, why are people who don't want to do that trying to stop them? There are plenty of traceable horses for sale.

I'm writing here from 43 years of buying and selling horses, most of which were mongrels, (apart from the ex racers), four of which were selectively bred from warmblood GP bloodlines and ALL FOUR, were in their own ways a disaster. I'm prepared to believe my experience is unusual, given the right data, but that data is not available for those horses which are currently selectively bred for performance.
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[ycbm]

I think the problem is that a lot of the data that we have at the moment is almost being used detrimentally. There are some breeders, that really know their horses and their lines and know what they have been bred for and that sort of knowledge is invaluable and what we should be aiming for.

Unfortunately, (because of money??) that doesn't seem to be what the WB/ Sporthorse breeders are aiming for. As we see on the continent, horses are being bred to make vast sums as young horses/ foals and most amateurs wouldn't be able to sit them let alone ride them and temperament and soundness seem secondary because the money has already been made out of them. Some horses, dressage in particular comes to mind, are almost becoming like pugs and german shepherds where they're being bred for certain aspects instead of actually being correct, well moving horses. At the moment this is what is unfortunately being demonstrated as where data on breeding can get us.

I love data and if it was possible to have it all recorded and be able to evaluate a horse's soundness, temperament and suitability that would be absolutely amazing but it feels like we're so so far from that and the costs that would be involved in getting there is impractical and if we did would the data and system actually end up just being abused as mentioned above rather than just the normal amateur being able to benefit from it.

Exactly.,

 

[Cortez]

The problem is that breeding horses for the amateur/ordinary/not-competition-orientated market is absolutely not profitable. I looked into doing this (breeding for the amateur rider) as I realised that 95% of the people who bought my competition-bred, quite expensive horses would have been better off NOT having that type of horse. But they thought they wanted a fancy-wancy WB with big athletic paces and an eager temperament, and they looked for the fashionable, well known bloodlines despite not really knowing what they meant. They even liked paying the higher prices. The trouble is that breeding "ordinary" horses wouldn't have sold into that market at all, and producing them would have cost pretty much the same, so it wasn't going to be viable.

 

[Caol Ila]

Which is that if you mandate recording of parentage for participation in competition, over an extended period of time in order to make sure it doesn't negatively impact anyone who has currently bought a horse with no recorded parentage, that over time, it would allow for better data collection and more informed decision making about breeding and purchasing. And as far as I'm concerned, that could be just as helpful for someone looking for a RC allrounder as it is for someone looking for a Badminton horse.

It might be helpful for someone looking for an RC horse, but I think the headache of enforcing a rule like that at competitions far outweighs any helpfulness. Are you saying that you would have a rule that says you can't enter your horse in BD/BE/BS competitions unless it had recorded parentage? But if you bought a horse before such a rule came into effect (wave a magic wand and make it come into effect Jan 2023, for the sake of argument), it doesn't apply? Sounds like an admin nightmare for a show secretary. If I wanted to show Fin at BD, myself and everyone like me (lots of people....there are so many horses of unknown breeding out there) would be exempt, which is fine. But then the poor show secretary would have a nightmare, working out which horses are exempt and which ones are not. How do you know? Would owners have to submit proof that they bought the horse before 2023 with their show entries? This is sounding fun. It would be a mess people would be untangling for the next 20 years.

It would do terrible things to the horse market. There are hundreds of horses with unknown breeding currently out there. Suddenly, those horses would lose their value and become unsellable to anyone with the vague idea of competing. That's a lot of potential owners, gone. Will that drive up prices to crazy levels at one end of the market (potentially pricing a lot of people out of competing, while shows are having issues with entries as it is), while creating welfare issues at the other? Possibly.

Let's say the passport agencies refused to passport any horse with unproven parentage. That's me f*cked. We think we know who Caso's baby daddy is, but we're not 100% sure.

Wouldnt it be worthwhile if breeders of natives / RC allrounders heinz 57 actually did the job right and produced /bred horses that had traceability.

Yeah, it would be worthwhile. Encouraging more responsible breeding is always a good thought. But I think forcing it by disallowing people to compete grade horses of unknown breeding will cause more problems than it solves.

 

[ycbm]

Although, hilariously, when researching him before purchase, I think @ycbm posted negative comments about his sire on this forum - which I chose to ignore on the basis that there were enough horses he'd produced out there doing exactly what I want him to do.

I glad you found it amusing.

From a post you have made I think I now know the stallion you refer to. He is local to me and I reported only on recorded fact and then PMd someone about what I have seen him do with my own eyes, and about two of his offspring who were bred by friends of mine and who I knew from the day they were born to the day one was PTS at 7 for undiagnosed issues, and the other who was sold at a similar age as unrideable by the young woman who competed his mother.

I'm glad you have a good one.
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[ycbm]

Are you saying that you would have a rule that says you can't enter your horse in BD/BE/BS competitions unless it had recorded parentage?

My recollection from another thread was that Rachel is in favour of the French system where a horse cannot even compete unaffiliated without registered parentage.

I'm sure she will correct me if I'm wrong about that.
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[Cortez]

Caol Ila, if you think you know the sire, and if he's PRE then you could DNA test your colt.

 

[RachelFerd]

My recollection from another thread was that Rachel is in favour of the French system where a horse cannot even compete unaffiliated without registered parentage.

I'm sure she will correct me if I'm wrong about that.
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Yep, I am. And it's no wonder that the French are producing the best event horses in the world now.

And honestly, if you mandated it, the unknown parentage stuff would vanish overnight... It's not a difficult ask. It only exists because it's convenient and allows people to hide what they're up to.

 

[Caol Ila]

Caol Ila, if you think you know the sire, and if he's PRE then you could DNA test your colt.

He lives in Germany now with his owner, but wouldn’t you need DNA from the alleged sire to test the colt? As a breeding stallion, I believe Macetero’s DNA is in the ANCCE database (you’ll tell me if I’m wrong, lol ?), but we think the sire is his son, Hermosa’s half brother. Keeping it all in the family. That horse has allegedly been sold. Maybe gelded. Who knows. Would his DNA be in the database if he’s not being kept as a breeding stallion? Or would you need to somehow acquire that in order to conclusively test for paternity?

 

[RachelFerd]

I glad you found it amusing.

From a post you have made I think I now know the stallion you refer to. He is local to me and I reported only on recorded fact and then PMd someone about what I have seen him do with my own eyes, and about two of his offspring who were bred by friends of mine and who I knew from the day they were born to the day one was PTS at 7 for undiagnosed issues, and the other who was sold at a similar age as unrideable by the young woman who competed his mother.

I'm glad you have a good one.
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I mean, one of his progeny came 6th at Blenheim this year, and there have been plenty of Nov/Int/3* horses. I would have liked to buy a Ramiro B, but the budget didn't go that far. I also looked at some Diamant De Semilly horses, but they weren't the right types for eventing. I also looked at Anglo Arabs from France, but COVID made everything a bit tricky. In the end I was swung by the dam's breeding and siblings performance.

But by your logic I wouldn't have looked at him at all because of some anecdotal problems, which aren't actually representative. And that's where more data would help, not hinder - because rather than relying on anecdotes, we could actually look at statistical evidence.

 

[Cortez]

He lives in Germany now with his owner, but wouldn’t you need DNA from the alleged sire to test the colt? As a breeding stallion, I believe Macetero’s DNA is in the ANCCE database (you’ll tell me if I’m wrong, lol ?), but we think the sire is his son, and Hermosa’s half brother. Keeping it all in the family. That horse has allegedly been sold. Maybe gelded. Who knows. Would his DNA be in the database if he’s not being kept as a breeding stallion? Or would you need to somehow acquire that in order to conclusively test for paternity?

If he's not an approved PRE stallion he won't be available on the DNA database.

 

[ycbm]

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But by your logic I wouldn't have looked at him at all because of some anecdotal problems, which aren't actually representative. And that's where more data would help, not hinder - because rather than relying on anecdotes, we could actually look at statistical evidence.

I made no such recommendation. I gave someone who was not you factual information when she asked for it. Can we not just agree to disagree on recorded breeding Rachel, and stop what are beginning to feel like personal attacks?
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[RachelFerd]

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I made no such recommendation. I gave someone who was not you factual information when she asked for it. Can we not just agree to disagree on recorded breeding Rachel, and stop what are beginning to feel like personal attacks?
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Anyone searching for said horse can see that post.

 

[ycbm]

Anyone searching for said horse can see that post.

So what? It was factually accurate about the horses BE record!
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[Caol Ila]

If he's not an approved PRE stallion he won't be available on the DNA database.

Then there we are. It's unlikely that he's an approved PRE stallion. He would be four and a half now.

When I registered Caso with BAPSH (as a PRE fusion), I inquired about going down the route of proving paternity, but they basically told me that since the alleged baby daddy was no longer at the breeder's (nor were his brothers, who were a year younger but also possibilities), tracking him down wasn't going to happen, thus Caso is registered in a different section of the studbook than his mum.

Would forcing anyone competing to register their horse's pedigree stop that sort of thing from happening? LOLOLOLOLOL! It would, however, have made it a huge ball-ache for me to sell him on the open market, if I'd needed to do that. It would be nice if such rules would make breeders act responsibly (don't I know it!), but I think people are going to be useless no matter what rules you put in place. You should not punish people down the line for buying a nice horse.

 

[RachelFerd]

So what? It was factually accurate about the horses BE record!
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Given that anyone searching for info on the stallion will see that post as one of the first results on Google, it's not entirely a "so what".

 

[ycbm]

Given that anyone searching for info on the stallion will see that post as one of the first results on Google, it's not entirely a "so what".

It's a 100% factual comment on his BE record, the first thing anyone would look up if they were trying to breed an eventer.
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[DabDab]

And honestly, if you mandated it, the unknown parentage stuff would vanish overnight... It's not a difficult ask. It only exists because it's convenient and allows people to hide what they're up to.

Do you mean it would vanish overnight for new foals born? There's nothing much that can be done about the ones already out there.
I should think that there are far more that have unregistered parents because of various innocent (if annoying/generally incompetent) reasons than for nefarious ones. I have two horses with unregistered parents who fall into that category. It's probably more common than you think.

 

[RachelFerd]

It's a 100% factual comment on his BE record, the first thing anyone would look up if they were trying to breed an eventer.
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The 'PM me for more info' part of that suggests there's more negative info to be shared. Just pointing out that your casual comment.may have a bigger impact than expected.

 

[RachelFerd]

Do you mean it would vanish overnight for new foals born? There's nothing much that can be done about the ones already out there.
I should think that there are far more that have unregistered parents because of various innocent (if annoying/generally incompetent) reasons than for nefarious ones. I have two horses with unregistered parents who fall into that category. It's probably more common than you think.

The "annoying" reasons can usually be proven with DNA testing if there are a couple of suspects - it's really not hard to get a grip on it, if there was appetite to do so.