Can British breeding ever be anything but a bit crap?

[shortstuff99]

No, not all brilliance, but that’s true of any breeding, anywhere. I completely agree re the giant, candy coloured horses BTW, but I was told that they have started breeding these type “for the foreigners”. I’ve looked many times at British bred PRE’s, but there really is no comparison with what’s available in Spain, especially for the type of horse that I look for (very traditional).

Yes I don't think you will get very Baroque over here but I know some small studs that breed mainly escalera and marin Garcia lines that are very nice.

This was a cobra at SICAB this year....

 

[ycbm]

It really wouldn't be harmful though to have a decent integrated performance and breeding database that helped us breed more of those nice "ordinary" horses with a bit of sensible use of data and insight.

Well it will make them more expensive, and as I've already explained, in my experience of a few dozen horses it's no guarantee of performance and especially not of temperament. The latter because people start to breed for the performance and not care enough about the temperament. And if pretty much any sound horse can jump a metre, and that's the top limit of what most riders ever want to do, I can't get exercised about our lack of data.

You chose to buy a British horse because it was cheaper. You and anyone else could buy horses with a full performance history if you chose, (including from the best UK studs). Why does it matter where it was bred? If you also get your previously expressed wish that no horse can compete unless its parentage is known, then you will eventually remove the choice you yourself made to buy a cheaper horse. I don't see your logic at all.
.

 

[RachelFerd]

Well it will make them more expensive, and as I've already explained, in my experience of a few dozen horses it's no guarantee of performance and especially not of temperament. The latter because people start to breed for the performance and not care enough about the temperament. And if pretty much any sound horse can jump a metre, and that's the top limit of what most riders ever want to do, I can't get exercised about our lack of data.

You chose to buy a British horse because it was cheaper. You and anyone else could buy horses with a full performance history if you chose, (including from the best UK studs). Why does it matter where it was bred? If you also get your previously expressed wish that no horse can compete unless its parentage is known, then you will eventually remove the choice you yourself made to buy a cheaper horse. I don't see your logic at all.
.

As an owner of one of the toughest, soundest and most genuine horses I've ever met - who is now still going strong retired at 30, I'd absolutely LOVE to be able to buy another horse like him, but because he has no recorded parentage nor any known breeder or location of origin, I'll never be able to. So of course it would make sense to have record keeping and information about the horses that we breed, so that we can use that information in a positive way, rather than utilising random pot luck.

 

[Squeak]

Well it will make them more expensive, and as I've already explained, in my experience of a few dozen horses it's no guarantee of performance and especially not of temperament. The latter because people start to breed for the performance and not care enough about the temperament. And if pretty much any sound horse can jump a metre, and that's the top limit of what most riders ever want to do, I can't get exercised about our lack of data.

You chose to buy a British horse because it was cheaper. You and anyone else could buy horses with a full performance history if you chose, (including from the best UK studs). Why does it matter where it was bred? If you also get your previously expressed wish that no horse can compete unless its parentage is known, then you will eventually remove the choice you yourself made to buy a cheaper horse. I don't see your logic at all.
.

What I think has been really interesting since the shooting up of prices is that it seems the ex-racer is now being utilised for amateurs/ RC etc who dont wish to go above a metre. An australian friend said this was how it had always been there, you had TBs as there was nothing else like the natives. It's definitely seemed to me like the exracers are filling the gap for affordable all rounders and hopefully thats a good thing in terms of giving them second careers and lives outside of racing. However it would be very sad to lose the natives and Heinz 57s that used to dominate that sector. Are they just being bred less because we're putting so much emphasis on the sportshorses?

 

[RachelFerd]

What I think has been really interesting since the shooting up of prices is that it seems the ex-racer is now being utilised for amateurs/ RC etc who dont wish to go above a metre. An australian friend said this was how it had always been there, you had TBs as there was nothing else like the natives. It's definitely seemed to me like the exracers are filling the gap for affordable all rounders and hopefully thats a good thing in terms of giving them second careers and lives outside of racing. However it would be very sad to lose the natives and Heinz 57s that used to dominate that sector. Are they just being bred less because we're putting so much emphasis on the sportshorses?

Here in the UK the natives and Heinz 57s are generally selling for more money than the ex-racers - cob and native market is quite showing focused though, and not very performance focused.

 

[paddi22]

I was always amazed there wasn't more emphasis put on the Cleveland bay as an allrounder horse. i remember as a kid thinking they were absolutely gorgeous horses when you'd read the 'breeds from each country' books as a kid. why do people think they aren't pushed more.

A lot of the breed focus is down to good marketing by the breeding agency and also the support from the government for specific breeding. The TIH in Ireland has had a ton of money pumped into and that sector has grown in awareness a huge amount. competitions having categories like 'best placed TIH' etc have really encouraged people to consider them more.

 

[TheMule]

I was always amazed there wasn't more emphasis put on the Cleveland bay as an allrounder horse. i remember as a kid thinking they were absolutely gorgeous horses when you'd read the 'breeds from each country' books as a kid. why do people think they aren't pushed more.

Cleveland bays have a terrible reputation! I think unfortunately there were temperament issues in a few lines and word got round that they’re best avoided

 

[Squeak]

A lot of the breed focus is down to good marketing by the breeding agency and also the support from the government for specific breeding. The TIH in Ireland has had a ton of money pumped into and that sector has grown in awareness a huge amount. competitions having categories like 'best placed TIH' etc have really encouraged people to consider them more.

And like Ror! There are a huge amount of competitions and some at some very good shows for Ror. There are a lot of good series and championships that you can aim for with them now and I reckon that has helped a lot to make them more attractive.

 

[paddi22]

Cleveland bays have a terrible reputation! I think unfortunately there were temperament issues in a few lines and word got round that they’re best avoided

oh wow, never knew that, that's really interesting!

 

[RachelFerd]

Cleveland bays have a terrible reputation! I think unfortunately there were temperament issues in a few lines and word got round that they’re best avoided

Aren't they basically a warmblood from too small a genetic pool at this stage? And bred now to continue survival of the breed rather than for performance or temperament. Which would then lead to production of rubbish. Only making assumptions there - I know very little about current breeding stock.

 

[Squeak]

Here in the UK the natives and Heinz 57s are generally selling for more money than the ex-racers - cob and native market is quite showing focused though, and not very performance focused.

Yes, they absolutely are more expensive than the RoR's these days. I'm not sure if that's slightly due to less availability and less of them? You see a lot more warmbloods and sportshorses doing the job that they used to and I don't think they all do it as well. I cant help but feel that this is due to the pressure that was put on people to only breed horses with fashionable breeding. Yes, there were people breeding from mares who shouldn't have done but there was a lot to be said for the foals from a genuine, all rounder mare.

 

[ycbm]

As an owner of one of the toughest, soundest and most genuine horses I've ever met - who is now still going strong retired at 30, I'd absolutely LOVE to be able to buy another horse like him, but because he has no recorded parentage nor any known breeder or location of origin, I'll never be able to. So of course it would make sense to have record keeping and information about the horses that we breed, so that we can use that information in a positive way, rather than utilising random pot luck.

Your experience of sound temperaments and bodies in warmbloods of known parentage and performance-proven genes is very diffeent from mine. 2 of my four were temperamentally unstable. The other two had kissing spines and one of the temperamentally unstable ones was deliberately bred from an unstable, "quirky", GP father and was himself a wobbler who lasted to only 10 years old before his neck disintegrated.

My random pot luck horses, on the other hand have mostly done exactly what it said on the tin.
.

 

[RachelFerd]

Your experience of sound temperaments and bodies in warmbloods of known parentage and performance-proven genes is very diffeent from mine. 2 of my four were temperamentally unstable. The other two had kissing spines and one of the temperamentally unstable ones was deliberately bred from an unstable, "quirky", GP father and was himself a wobbler who lasted to only 10 years old before his neck disintegrated.

My random pot luck horses, on the other hand have mostly done exactly what it said on the tin.
.

I think you're totally missing the point - the very sound 30 year old horse was a pot luck horse of unknown parentage, and I'd sure as hell like to know what he is. Not collecting or keeping the information that would let us make better breeding decisions is just stupid.

 

[Squeak]

I think you're totally missing the point - the very sound 30 year old horse was a pot luck horse of unknown parentage, and I'd sure as hell like to know what he is. Not collecting or keeping the information that would let us make better breeding decisions is just stupid.

I think the problem is that people aren't using the information that we already have very well. Horses with known breeding are being bred from just because of their breeding rather than temperament, confirmation, soundness and achievements so it's almost detrimental rather beneficial.

 

[paddi22]

It was interesting at the foal sales here recently. the only ones that made money were the ones that had mares with performance records. friends had a lovely foal with a graded mare with good breeding but it didn't make the money they wanted. any foals with low performing mares didn't seem to get sold.

 

[ycbm]

I think you're totally missing the point - the very sound 30 year old horse was a pot luck horse of unknown parentage, and I'd sure as hell like to know what he is. Not collecting or keeping the information that would let us make better breeding decisions is just stupid.

No, I get your point but you're missing mine. All four of my warmbloods were bred from GP stock and none of them cut the mustard their genes suggested they would.

For an 80/90/100 "ordinary" horse that most buyers in this country are looking for, it is, in my experience, just as much pot luck to know the performance history as it is to buy an unknown mongrel.
.

 

[RachelFerd]

I think the problem is that people aren't using the information that we already have very well. Horses with known breeding are being bred from just because of their breeding rather than temperament, confirmation, soundness and achievements so it's almost detrimental rather beneficial.

The answer to that problem isn't to stop collecting information though - it is to collect more information and make better use of it. Which is what we're totally failing to do in the UK.

 

[Cortez]

I used to breed performance horses with a studbook that went back to 1732. Knowing the bloodlines enabled an astonishing level of predictability for temperament, trainability, size, movement, long term soundness, even feed conversion (whether the horse would be an easy keeper or not). Even so, not every horse turned out well. There is always variability, and there will always be the "freaks" that turn up from random breeding. Given the choice between breeding using a meticulously curated studbook with evaluated breeding stock and random matings I would always go for the studbook. Having said that, there are sometimes nice horses of unknown breeding around, wouldn't it be nice to know how they came about though?

 

[RachelFerd]

No, I get your point but you're missing mine. All four of my warmbloods were bred from GP stock and none of them cut the mustard their genes suggested they would.

For an 80/90/100 "ordinary" horse that most buyers in this country are looking for, it is, in my experience, just as much pot luck to know the performance history as it is to buy an unknown mongrel.
.

But what if there was more information out there, in performance and breeding databases, that actually helped flag breeding lines that were showing particular strength in producing horses that amateurs were having success on at the middle levels? Wouldn't that be helpful to know? And if that data could be linked up to lifetime performance records, so you could also see the longevity of horse's careers, wouldn't that be helpful to know?

 

[ycbm]

But what if there was more information out there, in performance and breeding databases, that actually helped flag breeding lines that were showing particular strength in producing horses that amateurs were having success on at the middle levels? Wouldn't that be helpful to know? And if that data could be linked up to lifetime performance records, so you could also see the longevity of horse's careers, wouldn't that be helpful to know?

No, not unless you can point me to evidence that the average person riding at 80/90/100cm is statistically significantly more likely to end up with a sound sane horse because of it.

My own experience is completely the reverse.
.

 

[Lexi 123]

Irish breeding isn’t any better the amount of people using unsound unproven mares because these horses broke down at a young and refused to retire them or horse with behaviour problems and with a bad attitude to work . what people don’t understand is good breeding is breeding for a horses sound and has a good record and a good temperament with a good attitude to work. So good breeding makes good horses Don’t matter if just a Horse for having fun on to many bad horses with behaviour come out of bad breeding.

 

[ycbm]

I used to breed performance horses with a studbook that went back to 1732. Knowing the bloodlines enabled an astonishing level of predictability for temperament, trainability, size, movement, long term soundness, even feed conversion (whether the horse would be an easy keeper or not). Even so, not every horse turned out well. There is always variability, and there will always be the "freaks" that turn up from random breeding. Given the choice between breeding using a meticulously curated studbook with evaluated breeding stock and random matings I would always go for the studbook. Having said that, there are sometimes nice horses of unknown breeding around, wouldn't it be nice to know how they came about though?

I would agree with you, possibly, if you could trust all breeders to breed for temperament and soundness for a long working life. They don't. Far too many breed for maximum value as youngstock.

Until the whole life of the horse is tracked, there is still insufficient data for making the case for selectively breeding the average riding club/ pleasure horse.

It just puts up the price for little to no reward.
.

 

[RachelFerd]

No, not unless you can point me to evidence that the average person riding at 80/90/100cm is statistically significantly more likely to end up with a sound sane horse because of it.

My own experience is completely the reverse.
.

Wow

 

[ycbm]

Wow

Why the shock? It's what I've been saying for months now on three diffeent threads, have you only just understood me?

You're very competitive Rachel, with high ambitions. I admire your drive. But I think you have lost sight of how ordinary mortals who just want a sane sound playmate feel.
.

 

[RachelFerd]

Why the shock? It's what I've been saying for months now on three diffeent threads, have you only just understood me?

You're very competitive Rachel, with high ambitions. I admire your drive. But I think you have lost sight of how ordinary mortals who just want a sane sound playmate feel.
.

You're proposing that you'd prefer to buy a completely random horse, whose parents you don't know, whose breeding you don't know, whose previous performance and soundness you know nothing about, because you think that any recording of performance and breeding makes worse horses? It is probably one of the stupidest things I've ever read on this forum - I'm sorry!

 

[ycbm]

You're proposing that you'd prefer to buy a completely random horse, whose parents you don't know, whose breeding you don't know, whose previous performance and soundness you know nothing about, because you think that any recording of performance and breeding makes worse horses? It is probably one of the stupidest things I've ever read on this forum - I'm sorry!

No. You are wilfully misunderstanding me, and I don't much appreciate being called stupid when that isn't what I said.

I'd prefer to buy them because they are cheaper and my experience is that in buying performance bred horses you pay a lot more with no more chance that they will turn out to be a good'un.

For a lower level rider who does not need a horse with a big movement/jump to achieve their goals, paying more for no more certainty of soundness, temperament and performance is pointless.

I find your attitude completely perplexing for someone who earlier in the thread told us you bought a less well bred British horse because it was cheaper.
.

 

[RachelFerd]

No. You are wilfully misunderstanding me, and I don't much appreciate being called stupid when that isn't what I said.

I'd prefer to buy them because they are cheaper and my experience is that in buying performance bred horses you pay a lot more with no more chance that they will turn out to be a good'un.

For a lower level rider who does not need a horse with a big movement/jump to achieve their goals, paying more for no more certainty of soundness, temperament and performance is pointless.

I find your attitude completely perplexing for someone who earlier in the thread told us you bought a less well bred British horse because it was cheaper.
.

Well if that's the case, you've completely misunderstood me. I'm not proposing anyone buys horses with big movement or big jumps - I've just said that British breeding, overall, is rubbish because of its failure to have comprehensive, joined-up studbooks, performance records and grading requirements. In a world where we can make increasingly good use of data, we're totally failing to.

I bought a moderately well bred British horse who has significant performance and longevity in eventing evidenced on both sides of his pedigree at a fairly cheap price, because the non-integrated way in which British breeding works means that he wasn't as marketable as an equivalent Irish or continental horse. So I (hopefully) picked up a relative bargain. But that's at the expense of British breeders, and at the expense of us producing more horses like him (with good performance and temperament credentials).

 

[Caol Ila]

You're proposing that you'd prefer to buy a completely random horse, whose parents you don't know, whose breeding you don't know, whose previous performance and soundness you know nothing about, because you think that any recording of performance and breeding makes worse horses? It is probably one of the stupidest things I've ever read on this forum - I'm sorry!

In fairness, many punters buy exactly that. I don't know if this is what ycbm means, but from where I sit, most people who want a horse as a pet or companion don't care at all about bloodlines. I don't think careful breeding makes "worse horses." Not at all. I just think your average unambitious British horse owner doesn't give a stuff. My yard is hoaching with cob-types, imported from Ireland, with completely unknown breeding. They probably make up the majority of the yard's population.

I do get why you'd buy a nice all-rounder cob of unknown lineage for low level putzing instead of a well-bred horse that could be far more expensive because of who its parents are.

If you're serious about moving up the levels in sport, then the low level putzing grade horse (as we say in the US) might not be what you're looking for. I don't know the ins-and-outs of breeding sporthorses in Britain, but it sounds like similar issues to breeding in the States. People have been whinging for years about the lack of a comprehensive, joined-up performance horse breeding program in the US and whinging about people importing from Europe for upper level competition, rather than riding and promoting US bred horses.

But again, that is for elite horses. Punters who want a buddy to go on trail rides or show First Level dressage don't care.

 

[RachelFerd]

Although, hilariously, when researching him before purchase, I think @ycbm posted negative comments about his sire on this forum - which I chose to ignore on the basis that there were enough horses he'd produced out there doing exactly what I want him to do.

Now, having been out in Argentina recently and riding lots of homebred Criollo horses, it is very clear that the farm I was at understood exactly what they wanted to breed in terms of useful working horses, and they used their knowledge of the bloodlines of the horses they had to produce those nice client-friendly, tough, sound and easy to ride horses.

I just don't understand why anyone would choose *not* to use additional insight and knowledge to make these expensive kind of decisions.

 

[ycbm]

Well if that's the case, you've completely misunderstood me. I'm not proposing anyone buys horses with big movement or big jumps - I've just said that British breeding, overall, is rubbish because of its failure to have comprehensive, joined-up studbooks, performance records and grading requirements. In a world where we can make increasingly good use of data, we're totally failing to.

I bought a moderately well bred British horse who has significant performance and longevity in eventing evidenced on both sides of his pedigree at a fairly cheap price, because the non-integrated way in which British breeding works means that he wasn't as marketable as an equivalent Irish or continental horse. So I (hopefully) picked up a relative bargain. But that's at the expense of British breeders, and at the expense of us producing more horses like him (with good performance and temperament credentials).

You are still ignoring the fact that what most people on this country buying horses want is the cheapest sane, long-term sound horse that meets their riding needs, to love.

And at the moment there is no evidence that breeding databases make that any more easy to find than a mongrel, just more expensive.

There is plenty of selective breeding going on throughout Europe, including some in the UK. People who want that are not short of choices. So i don't understand why you seem to have a desire to shut down a source of cheaper horses for people with diffeent aspirations from your own.
.