Can people buy horses off the meat man?

[Nudibranch]

And indeed, my experience is that both the knackerman and vet round here take the rope, and the vet insists I stand behind him. That's simply factual information and whatever goes on elsewhere doesn't change it!

 

[Equine_Dream]

OK...so, treading carefully here and also playing devils advocate...if you choose in this circumstance to stay with your horse, why not in the planned scenario? (Not picking at you personally EquineDream) but just trying to ascertain if adrenaline is the key differentiator? Also, if people (generalising here!) can/are prepared to stay with their horse in one circumstance then why not in another?

Well the key here is these circumstances are that it is an emergency. There isnt any other choice, so regardless whether me being there visably distressed caused greater upset to my horse or not: it still has to be done.

I think people are getting confused with my reasoning. The reason I dont want to watch my horse die isnt to protect myself. Its because I want it to be as stress free for my horse as possible and I know I couldnt control my emotions and would be a mess which in turn may cause my horse to become distressed. So I genuinely think its better if im not present when the actual deed is done. If there was no other option however then I would have to do it of course.

 

[chillipup]

Run like crazy to hunt kennels yelling for help and get hunt to come back and shoot it. Whilst hunt person collects gun, return to horse. If horse is down already but struggling to get up, sit on neck to help keep down. If horse still upright, just try to lessen distress til help arrives.

I once had to wait with a Tb horse that had torn it's hind foot off below fetlock. It was just barely attached. Horse was not distressed, just stood there, I suspect due to having already lost a lot of blood through arterial bleed. I sang quietly to it while waiting 30 mins for vet to arrive to shoot it. It was a very surreal time.

It wasn't my horse & I have held others whilst shot. I have no problem with a sobbing/distressed owner not wanting to be present as this can cause distress in the animal.

 

[gunnergundog]

And indeed, my experience is that both the knackerman and vet round here take the rope, and the vet insists I stand behind him. That's simply factual information and whatever goes on elsewhere doesn't change it!

No...and it doesn't change what goes on here in my sphere either. I hold the horse and the rope with a bucket of feed; bullet is shot, horse drops and then I walk away.. End of. Last one was shot by vet less than a month ago.. Many others (sadly) shot by different hunts/ huntsmen, so not a one off by any means.

Perhaps it comes down to the professional doing the deed and their assessment of the individual wanting to hold the end of the rope...as is, are they likely to be a hindrance/help/neutral to the deed?

Above is also simple factual information.

Maybe people reading this and about to embark on similar scenario need to make a few phone calls to ascertain the situation in their environs.

 

[ycbm]

Well the key here is these circumstances are that it is an emergency. There isnt any other choice, so regardless whether me being there visably distressed caused greater upset to my horse or not: it still has to be done.

I think people are getting confused with my reasoning. The reason I dont want to watch my horse die isnt to protect myself. Its because I want it to be as stress free for my horse as possible and I know I couldnt control my emotions and would be a mess which in turn may cause my horse to become distressed. So I genuinely think its better if im not present when the actual deed is done. If there was no other option however then I would have to do it of course.

I understand your reasoning completely, and of course I agree with you. And I agree with you in spite of being just like the people who are criticising the people who don't stay. I am able to be completely unemotional until it's over.

I've held horses for friends and would not dream of looking down on them for needing me to do it. I stayed with all mine except two. The first was when I was young, he was my first horse, and I fell to pieces. The other was a couple of years ago and he was an exceptionally sensitive horse emotionally. I didn't think I could fool him for one second, so I let him go with my OH. He was as happy as Larry till he dropped.

There's no doubt, too, that the more you do the easier it gets.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

It never gets any easier ycbm

 

[gunnergundog]

Well the key here is these circumstances are that it is an emergency. There isnt any other choice, so regardless whether me being there visably distressed caused greater upset to my horse or not: it still has to be done.

I think people are getting confused with my reasoning. The reason I dont want to watch my horse die isnt to protect myself. Its because I want it to be as stress free for my horse as possible and I know I ckouldnt control my emotions and would be a mess which in turn may cause my horse to become distressed. So I genuinely think its better if im not present when the actual deed is done. If there was no other option however then I would have to do it of course.

Equine dream....in this scenario though your horse is already distressed due to the physical injury; so would you actually be visibly distressed yourself or would you hold it together for the sake of your horse though in order to limit his/her further distress?

 

[Equine_Dream]

I understand your reasoning completely, and of course I agree with you. And I agree with you in spite of being just like the people who are criticising the people who don't stay. I am able to be completely unemotional until it's over.

I've held horses for friends and would not dream of looking down on them for needing me to do it. I stayed with all mine except two. The first was when I was young, he was my first horse, and I fell to pieces. The other was a couple of years ago and he was an exceptionally sensitive horse emotionally. I didn't think I could fool him for one second, so I let him go with my OH. He was as happy as Larry till he dropped.

There's no doubt, too, that the more you do the easier it gets.

Thank you. I do admire you for being able to remain cool and calm. I wish I felt I could so that I could stay until the very end but I know myself better.

 

[Equine_Dream]

Equine dream....in this scenario though your horse is already distressed due to the physical injury; so would you actually be visibly distressed yourself or would you hold it together for the sake of your horse though in order to limit his/her further distress?

Its hard to say but as another poster said I think adrenalin would kick in and it would just be about putting the poor thing out of its misery. I dont think id be able to realise my own emotion until afterwards. Like I said though it would be entirely different in a planned euthanasia as it would be a different case scenario.

 

[be positive]

Equine dream....in this scenario though your horse is already distressed due to the physical injury; so would you actually be visibly distressed yourself or would you hold it together for the sake of your horse though in order to limit his/her further distress?

Without being put into this type of situation you can never know how you will react, if you are distressed and it shows does it really matter once the professional is there to take control, and they will take over if you are visibly upset, at the end of the day you do what you can at any given time and most vets/ huntsmen are experienced enough to know to take over if required.

I have held more than I want to think about, a few planned a few more emergency but fortunately never a serious injury, I have normally remained totally calm and able to stay fairly detached, it does not get easier but having seen the first one it does become less of a shock the next time, I would not hold it against anyone who asked a friend to be there, I have done this for a livery and would do so for anyone if they felt it best, I think that most horses will not be bothered who holds them as long as the last moments are as peaceful as possible.

 

[gunnergundog]

Its hard to say but as another poster said I think adrenalin would kick in and it would just be about putting the poor thing out of its misery. I dont think id be able to realise my own emotion until afterwards. Like I said though it would be entirely different in a planned euthanasia as it would be a different case scenario.

Thank you for your responses Equine Dream; I think I will bow out now as I suspect my further questioning will take you to places that are uncomfortable and I have no intention of causing distress/angst to anyone.

 

[gunnergundog]

Without being put into this type of situation you can never know how you will reactI .

I totally agree, but it is something that maybe some people should think about. Hopefully it never happens, but if you are prepared for/have thought through the worst case scenario then it is often easier if it does ever happen.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

It never gets any easier ycbm

No, it doesn't but at least you know what to expect.

I wonder if those who would feel able to stay with the injured horse in gunnergundog's scenario would then stay with subsequent horses in a planned pts because they had done it once and knwew what was going to happen.

We certainly had a baptism of fire. Our first horse was pts after a field accident. Sister dealt with the horse and initial vet visit, supported by the farmer whose field he lived in. Then after a few hours waiting to see if he recovered at all we both were present for the 2nd vet visit and the knackerman's vist to shoot him. We were extremely grateful to the farmer who cleaned up afterwards, sending us home.
None of the subsequent pts, planned or otherwise has been anywhere near as traumatic.

 

[ycbm]

Thank you. I do admire you for being able to remain cool and calm. I wish I felt I could so that I could stay until the very end but I know myself better.

There is nothing to be admired or not admired about this. People are built differently and have different ways of dealing with things.

 

[EquiEquestrian556]

There is nothing to be admired or not admired about this. People are built differently and have different ways of dealing with things.

Hear hear!

 

[AmyMay]

Do the squeamish amongst us leave relatives to die in the company of strangers, too?

Funnily enough, no. I sat and held my mothers hand as she died.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I'm sorry for your loss, amymay.

And a genuine question, so what is the difference? What makes it possible for you to stay with your mother but not with your horse? I ask because I have done both and would not have said that it is easier to stay with a person than with a horse.

 

[twiggy2]

I'm sorry for your loss, amymay.

And a genuine question, so what is the difference? What makes it possible for you to stay with your mother but not with your horse? I ask because I have done both and would not have said that it is easier to stay with a person than with a horse.

I sat with my Nan as she passed away-stroking her hair and speaking to her telling her it was OK to go, I have held our dogs but could not hold my daughters horse and will not hold my own when the time comes. My Nan was human that puts her in a different league for me, I had known her all my life and she had been a massive part of my life. Our dogs live indoors and would have been stressed being handled by someone they did not know-they are part of our family.
My daughters horse was a devastating shock and there was no time to prepare so we were emotionally distraught-also horses are not part of the family (we don't all like horses), we don't live with them and they are regularly handled by other trusted people, IMO they do not commonly form such close bonds with humans as dogs and that may in part be due to the fact the commonly change owners more often and do not live with us.
I was able to be prepared emotionally for my Nan and the dogs and maybe with my own mare I will feel OK to be there but as long as it is done when needed with as little stress to the horse as possible I really don't understand why anyone feels they have the right to judge anyone else on wether they are present or not.

 

[ycbm]

And a genuine question, so what is the difference? What makes it possible for you to stay with your mother but not with your horse? I ask because I have done both and would not have said that it is easier to stay with a person than with a horse.

Your mother knows she is dying. It matters to your mother that people who are close to her emotionally are close to her physically. Your horse does not know he is about to die. Your horse does not care any more than he cares who gives him his food as long as someone does.

It isn't your choice that your mother is dying. It's your choice that your horse is dying.

You can get upset while your mother is dying and she will understand. Your horse will not understand, just be upset that you are upset.

I'm sure there are more.

 

[Equine_Dream]

There is nothing to be admired or not admired about this. People are built differently and have different ways of dealing with things.

Very true, but still given the choice I would stay with my horses but as you say we are all different and I dont think either is way is the "right" way to deal with it. At the end of the day in such a horrible situation we must do what we feel best by our horses.

 

[Nudibranch]

Perhaps it comes down to the professional doing the deed and their assessment of the individual wanting to hold the end of the rope...as is, are they likely to be a hindrance/help/neutral to the deed?
.

Urgh, how patronising.
It matters not one jot who stands with the horse so long as the animal is comforted, and those who are attempting to suggest they are somehow superior for doing so are both misguided, and unhelpful to those posters who have not had to deal with such situations as yet.

For what it is worth, which is little I suspect, I have been the one at the end for each of my horses and never been a "hindrance" to the person doing the deed. But that was never my point.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Your mother knows she is dying. It matters to your mother that people who are close to her emotionally are close to her physically. Your horse does not know he is about to die. Your horse does not care any more than he cares who gives him his food as long as someone does.

It isn't your choice that your mother is dying. It's your choice that your horse is dying.

You can get upset while your mother is dying and she will understand. Your horse will not understand, just be upset that you are upset.

.

Actually very little of that is true in my case, although I have indeed stayed at my mother's bedside while she was dying.
I have had horses pts as a planned event because of old age or illness and in various emergencies and stayed with them all, so that does not answer my question.
In fact I have found it harder to stay at hospital bedsides and maintain my composure, which I felt it was necessary to do, than to stay with my horses.

 

[maisie06]

I have a PTS fund for mine. They will go at home when the time comes, it's one thing I have made sure is in place. One horrific story I know of is an owner who had a horse that was in not too good of a state of health and recieved little in the way of care, they used to turn up, chuck some hay over the fence if it was lucky and go, horse was found down in the field in a very bad way, owner was contacted but didn't show up, horse died just as YO was calling a vet, owner never heard from again - just left the body of the poor animal for the YO to dispose of - how awful is that? I couldn't do that to one of mine. YO even told they would have stood the cost of vet and disposal and taken installments....so no excuse.

 

[muckypony]

Wow, some of these posts are so misguided and actually quite hurtful.

I couldn't be with my first pony at the end, I wanted to be. I had it planned - she would be at home and I would be with her. But it didn't happen like that. She was already at the vets, why bring her home? I was advised by so many people not to be there. Friends who had been with their horses, and vets. I was advised not to because they all knew how it would taint my memories of her forever. That doesn't mean I'm selfish, or irresponsible, or that I don't deserve to have horses. It means that I couldn't see that. I didn't need to and still to this day I am glad I didn't see it. I have so many wonderful memories of my beautiful pony.

Do I ever wonder what happened? Of course I do. I feel awful that I wasn't there with her at the very end. But I know I made right choice for us both. I will never want to see any of mine pts. I will never send them away and I will always make sure it is done properly. If I have to be there I will, but if I don't then I won't.

Some of these posts are just self righteous and unnecessary. You are making people feel bad for something that they probably already feel awful about. Just because you can stay with your horses til the end, doesn't mean that anyone who can't is a bad person or a bad owner.

 

[honetpot]

Wow, some of these posts are so misguided and actually quite hurtful.

I couldn't be with my first pony at the end, I wanted to be. I had it planned - she would be at home and I would be with her. But it didn't happen like that. She was already at the vets, why bring her home? I was advised by so many people not to be there. Friends who had been with their horses, and vets. I was advised not to because they all knew how it would taint my memories of her forever. That doesn't mean I'm selfish, or irresponsible, or that I don't deserve to have horses. It means that I couldn't see that. I didn't need to and still to this day I am glad I didn't see it. I have so many wonderful memories of my beautiful pony.

Do I ever wonder what happened? Of course I do. I feel awful that I wasn't there with her at the very end. But I know I made right choice for us both. I will never want to see any of mine pts. I will never send them away and I will always make sure it is done properly. If I have to be there I will, but if I don't then I won't.

Some of these posts are just self righteous and unnecessary. You are making people feel bad for something that they probably already feel awful about. Just because you can stay with your horses til the end, doesn't mean that anyone who can't is a bad person or a bad owner.

I agree with all of this.
People cope with bad situations and grief in different ways, it doesn't make them bad people just different.
I cry a lot, my husband hardly ever cries. Our mothers died with in a couple of years of each other, because he didn't cry or did not appear upset that doesn't mean he wasn't, because I have been married for many years I knew he was stressed.
Having a horse put down his hard enough without making a drama out of it, the tears are shed long before. Perhaps its because I'm older and I have seen some god awful things happen, to people , including children and to animals, to cope you put it all in a mental box. I watched my father die at home when I was 19, did I cry then no, because I had to do things for my mum, do I still miss my father, yes. If I could have saved myself from the distress of seeing him dying I would have done but I had no choice. Seeing awful things does not make you are better person, its how you treat the living that counts. When horses are shot I give the huntsman the rope, being there makes not one scrap of difference to the horse, its over in less than 5 mins, I have seen two go down by injection, the result is the same just takes longer. If I could remember the last time I saw my dad it was on two legs I would, I would rather remember my horse on four.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I'm sorry for your loss, amymay.

And a genuine question, so what is the difference? What makes it possible for you to stay with your mother but not with your horse? I ask because I have done both and would not have said that it is easier to stay with a person than with a horse.

Haven't had a dead relative but I have had a horse put down in front of me. Watching her die of grass sickness within 24 hours was bad enough but when she was put down she reared up and travelled about 15 feet backwards to the other end of the surgery. That made it all a little bit worse. I'm not sure me being there helped her. It certainly didn't help me and I don't know if I could do it again.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Haven't had a dead relative but I have had a horse put down in front of me. Watching her die of grass sickness within 24 hours was bad enough but when she was put down she reared up and travelled about 15 feet backwards to the other end of the surgery. That made it all a little bit worse. I'm not sure me being there helped her. It certainly didn't help me and I don't know if I could do it again.

That is why I prefer to have horses shot rather than injected. My 16.3 ID was injected because of a problem with communication and as the vet was there, we decided not to wait any longer. She reacted in a similar way to yours. Never again! It definitely confirmed my preference for the speed of a bullet.
I do think that sometimes the imagination of what happens is worse than the actuality of being there and knowing for certain.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I've avoided posting thus far because some of this thread has irritated me so. I used to work as a VN and have seen many hundreds of small animals and horse PTS. I have seen many owners in bits and it would have been more helpful for them to leave but it was their choice either way.

I was at my fathers and grandmothers side when they died and would not have been anywhere else. I have seen lots of cattle and sheep PTS using various methods, I cull my own birds. I have always stayed with my dogs. I only stayed with my horse up until he was sedated though, then I left him with my husband, the vet and his assistant. He was a sociable animal who didn't mind who he was with. He was PTS at home in a favourite grazing spot.I wouldn't leave either pony, they are more suspicious of others and I will probably have them shot.

I have been with two horses, although not mine, that had catastrophically broken down and had to wait on the vet to come and of course I could do so for my own. Every situation is different. These sort of threads are usually the same though, whereby the same posters always like to try and make others feel bad for not doing things in the exact same way.

 

[Tnavas]

We often picked up really good horses and especially ponies from the meat man. Most he had been told were too dangerous to handle/ride. One lovely pony obviously had been in a very novice home and run rings around the child. He was impeccable to ride but threatened the kids on the ground. The staff only had to growl his name and his ears would prick forwards, his back foot would return to the ground and he'd put on his 'butter wouldn't melt' face.

I've sent them too, but with very strict instructions not to pass on as too dangerous.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Every situation is different. These sort of threads are usually the same though, whereby the same posters always like to try and make others feel bad for not doing things in the exact same way.

Exactly, spot on MoC.

To add, in an emergency, who is to say that they might be actually on holiday, or at work, whatever.

We all make our choices to treat our animals in the way we think best, including life or death situations. Nobody bar none should ever judge another for making a decision as to who/how/when etc.

IMHO, if an elected PTS (by whatever means) is always ruddy hard, you are not more or less a person if you are not there at the end. You will have in all probability shed more tears before the event than you will do after.

In an emergency, adrenalin takes over in most, but again not everyone will be to hand with their animal. Its not a neccessary thing to 'have' to witness if you dont want to.

Thats why the BHS offer the 'Friends at the End' x