Can we cope with ban on spurs/whips etc.?

Tiddlypom

Tiddlypom

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Regandal said:
Anyone ever given themselves a ‘light flick’ with a schooling whip?
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Yes, I have practiced using a schooling whip on myself, and every rider who carries one should do just that, and less is more :). No need for force, just the lightest of taps or brushes. Even just the sound of a light tap on your own boot while riding can be effective if needed.

But mostly I just carry the whip. But no horse of mine has ever been scared of the whip.

Having once crouched down on my haunches forgetting that I was still wearing (short and blunt) spurs was an unforgettable mistake o_O. Ouch, and a bruised bum.
 
catkin

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tristar said:
a schooling whip is a wonderful aid which used if needed can be used on different parts of horses body, and the horse has nothing to fear, it can be used humanely as a block, a touch, a tickle, the fact it is there can give the horse confidence in the authority of the rider in moments of need by just knowing it is there, as when hacking or riding on the road and holding in the quarters by resting the whip there as a block
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Not only when ridden - also in-hand working and classical long-reining which with a skilled handler is high-school work and as advanced and artistic as the ridden version.
 
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SO1

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Is there a reason why voice aids are so frowned on in competitions?

I like voice aids and trot on and canter on I use when I used to do a bit of lunge or round pen work and then also could use them when riding.

However like others I think bits, spurs, whips etc are actually not the important element that really needs to change it is a actually how horses spend their "free time" that needs to be considered. Improving the stable management side of things and perhaps people not buying horses that are not trained or suited for the job they are required to do would help as then they would less likely to get frustrated.

A well trained horse that is easy to ride and sound and competitive comes at price that is beyond most riders so people's ambitions often are often not matched by the horse that they have. Even a good hacking horse needs training to get it to that point.

I think part of the problem is that people buy horses thinking that they can train them themselves or are misold a horse and then they struggle and out of frustration and they end up looking at ways of getting to that goal such as gadgets including lessons from instructors who advocate use of these methods.

There are also other issues that come with long periods of stabling that make horses that are normally easy difficult to handle. For example my pony who is normally riding for disabled quiet and well behaved and gentle became uncharacteristically difficult when being brought back into work recently whilst on box rest with controlled exercise following injury. It was the first time in 15 years of owning him that I was too scared to ride him and had to get professional help at the trot stage. He had in the past done two other spells of shorter periods of box rest and I had managed to ride himself to bring him back into work but he had had small padock turnout at the trot stage in those cases whereas this time he had done nearly 6 months of box rest and controlled walking which I had managed to do the ridden bit for before he was allowed to trot and he was not having turnout when he started trotting and had become very frustrated at that point and understandably wanted to have a leap around and let off steam.

If we train our horses properly and get the stable management right then we may not need gadgets so much to get horses to do what we want them too.

I do agree though schooling whips can be very useful out hacking especially on the roads if other road users are not sympathetic to horses and you don't have time to do the gentle slow process in an emergency situation.
 
Lyle

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Yes, Voice! I'd love to see voice encouraged in dressage, it's such a valuable tool and in my experience, the horses respond so well. I teach all my babies on the ground that a 'cluck' means go and 'whoa' means slow. I also say 'lovely' (I found good can sound too close to whoa for some horses ?) when I get the response I want, and release the pressure (I combine this with a wither scratch while riding). When properly trained, this translates so well under saddle. Voice such a beautiful tool, one that doesn't require a physical pressure.
 
milliepops

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This is interesting https://eurodressage.com/2022/06/11...-after-health-check-2022-danish-championships

I think this kind of inspection makes more sense than blanket bans on equipment. If your horse is inspected before and during competition then you have to ensure that your recent training at home isn't going to come back to bite you.

From a lay person's POV i would expect that if this approach became normalised then fewer horses would be turned away from competition as people wouldn't bother trying to bring an injured horse to a show. and by extension the welfare at home would be increased as no one would want to have a horse they couldn't show.
 
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Miss_Millie

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TPO said:
I don't understand this take.

How are spurs "outdated"? When used correctly they refine the aid so there is actually less pressure applied to a horse than a heel or leg, and that taking into account the smaller contact area.
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I was thinking about this...if someone jabbed you in the side with the heel of a shoe, what would hurt more, a big flat boot or a pointy stiletto? Surely the smaller surface area would be more likely to hurt, same as if someone pushed you back with the flat of their hand on your ribs v.s. jab you with a pencil? Obviously you could hurt a horse by kicking hard, but a spur is much more likely to hurt if used with too much force, or even if your horse spooked and your leg position slipped. They are hard metal and a small point vs the large flat rubber surface area of a heel.

I do see some people using spurs because their horses are otherwise dead to the leg. And it makes me wonder if spur use in this case is 'refining the aid', or actually just more adverse than a plain heel, hence the horse moves off of the pressure quickly. In In these instances, they are being used to exert more force, the same as if someone put in a stronger bit because they had the opposite problem of 'too much go'. In both cases, investing time in training and groundwork should be the priority, rather than the quick fix option. I know that this isn't the case for all spur users, but it is something I have personally observed.
 
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Miss_Millie said:
I was thinking about this...if someone jabbed you in the side with the heel of a shoe, what would hurt more, a big flat boot or a pointy stiletto? Surely the smaller surface area would be more likely to hurt, same as if someone pushed you back with the flat of their hand on your ribs v.s. jab you with a pencil? Obviously you could hurt a horse by kicking hard, but a spur is much more likely to hurt if used with too much force, or even if your horse spooked and your leg position slipped. They are hard metal and a small point vs the large flat rubber surface area of a heel.

I do see some people using spurs because their horses are otherwise dead to the leg. And it makes me wonder if spur use in this case is 'refining the aid', or actually just more adverse than a plain heel, hence the horse moves off of the pressure quickly. In In these instances, they are being used to exert more force, the same as if someone put in a stronger bit because they had the opposite problem of 'too much go'. In both cases, investing time in training and groundwork should be the priority, rather than the quick fix option. I know that this isn't the case for all spur users, but it is something I have personally observed.
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Thats the difference between correct and incorrect use that you are describing.

There is no "jabbing" with correct use. Correct use of a spurs means LESS leg movement. So instead of the "big flat boot" putting pressure on a side its a brush with an extension of the leg. I can run my spurs up and down my inner arm with a lot of pressure and there's not even discomfort. In reality I don't use them in thst way at all.

Of course a spur shouldn't be used on a horse dead to leg or to teach forward. People using it as such aren't using it to refine an aid and are using them incorrectly. They are the people who shouldn't be using spurs not as evidence of spurs being bad.

I've observed similar but again those spurs aren't being used correctly. They are being used by ignorant and arrogant people.

Just goes to show the depth of the problem when correct spur usage and why they are used is such a foreign concept.
 
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palo1

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Miss_Millie said:
I was thinking about this...if someone jabbed you in the side with the heel of a shoe, what would hurt more, a big flat boot or a pointy stiletto? Surely the smaller surface area would be more likely to hurt, same as if someone pushed you back with the flat of their hand on your ribs v.s. jab you with a pencil? Obviously you could hurt a horse by kicking hard, but a spur is much more likely to hurt if used with too much force, or even if your horse spooked and your leg position slipped. They are hard metal and a small point vs the large flat rubber surface area of a heel.

I do see some people using spurs because their horses are otherwise dead to the leg. And it makes me wonder if spur use in this case is 'refining the aid', or actually just more adverse than a plain heel, hence the horse moves off of the pressure quickly. In In these instances, they are being used to exert more force, the same as if someone put in a stronger bit because they had the opposite problem of 'too much go'. In both cases, investing time in training and groundwork should be the priority, rather than the quick fix option. I know that this isn't the case for all spur users, but it is something I have personally observed.
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Well the thing is that when a horse is correctly trained there is a kind of limited area on it's side that is appropriate to ask for different things so a wider, flatter surface area really isn't helpful or clear. There is a spot on the side of the horse which helps to engage a muscular response but if you want more than just that response you have to train multiple and slightly different aids using quite a small space. It really makes sense for both horse and rider to be able to locate different aid 'spots' clearly and accurately; particularly in view of the fact that swinging your leg too far back (or forward) on the horse's side is quite likely to cause discomfort and a loss of balance. It is something that can look a little disharmonious in some dressage tests - often because the rider is having to work hard! Ideally though the lower leg would move very little but be able to communicate several different requests and spurs are invaluable for this kind of precicion. The way in which the leg aids are refined at a higher level isn't something that is routinely taught but it should be so that even from the most novice level, people are aware of the way in which a horse can and should be trained. At a lower level it is comparable to teaching or being taught the canter aid where you ask for the leading leg by slightly moving your own lower leg. As things get more complex you DO need to use clearer aids or things get too crowded and muddled up. That isn't really fair on a horse - all of us like clear communication as long as it is sympathetic and alongside correct training.
 
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