Can we cope with ban on spurs/whips etc.?

[MagicMelon]

Times are changing and we're clearly under a lot of pressure to greatly improve welfare standards - the Olympics looks like it will be very different, unless of course the equestrian disiplines are dropped completely! Just saw a very effective picture on my facebook of a dog with a double bridle on with its mouth strapped shut and a whip on its side - it does make sense to me and Im afraid I would agree. I cant watch top level dressage anymore, I find it ugly and unnatural. Much prefer eventing dressage as the horses just seem so much more relaxed. Watching showjumpers beating up their horses in the ring or yanking them to a walk after their round, eventers carrying on across country on clearly tired horses etc. its not acceptable. Professional riders seem to be be untouchable when in actual fact so many of them are the cause of all this. I feel the FEI do not do nearly enough and spend all their efforts trying to cover things up. There's certain rules I dont understand like why do we HAVE to wear a noseband to compete, why are top level do you need to wear a double, why are you allowed to wear spurs in dressage but not carry a schooling whip etc.?

If they banned spurs, whips, extreme bits, bumped up getting red cards or whatever for anything dodgy seen by stewards etc. then would people be happy with this in general? Does everyone agree that something needs to change? Does anyone have any ideas as to what specific changes need to happen and others than need to be left alone.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Dressage has the strictest rules on bits out of everyone. The double is more about refinement of aids and to be honest if you have taught your horse well enough you should not need spurs.

I really, really wish showing would take up dressages bit rules! For goodness sake a 4yo child can ride a pony in what is essentially a gag with pretty much no restrictions on what is in the middle of the bit!

 

[MagicMelon]

Yup that does seem insane a 4yo can ride with literally any bit, I didnt know that. I agree about the spurs, why does anyone need them. Surely though same goes for the double and the horse could be taught to respond perfectly well with a single bit?

 

[Kaylum]

Bits and bridles in general need looking at. Cheap manufacturing of these great padded things that put pressure on the face and are far too big. They are generic and not fitted at all. Flashes to shut mouths why? A horse moves its jaw from side to side. It's how it eats.

Kids riding in wilkie bits and the kick kick culture at kids showjumping just to get a pony round a course of jumps for their own satisfaction.

Lots of things wrong and have been overlooked for years.

When I was teaching 30 years ago the kids would have 10 minutes bareback as part of their lesson. They loved it and it taught them how to ride.

 

[milliepops]

Personally i think looking at bits and spurs is falling for the most obvious things and not that meaningful. You'd only be able to ban use in competition after all and there are already rules to pick up on mis-use (these could be strengthened).

If a bad rider had no spurs and only a snaffle bridle they could still cause considerable suffering to a horse. I don't buy into the spurs= bad or double bridles = abuse thing. Many GP riders do opt to ride in a snaffle these days (only mandated from 3* FEI shows upwards) and most would ride without spurs at home now and then too. They are precision tools, not intended to add brute force to the rider.

there's bad horsemanship all over, and these things seem like easy targets that won't really improve the lot of horses in a meaningful way. The optics to the public may be a different matter but i really doubt joe public really knows how to tell the difference between a well fitted or over tight curb chain when they flick past horse sport on the telly.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Ok a digression - in recent years I have only ever used a jumping bat for steering. I would use spurs for refinement and a schooling whip as an extension of my arm but we are not there yet. I do not use whips to get a horse off my leg and never have. I tried once in desperation with the laziest, most shut down horse in the world but it did not work. Dullness to the aids is a schooling issue to me.

However, I have been trying to do my BHS stages. Because I have to start from scratch, the horses used are invariably behind the leg and I am invariably told that I need to 'give them a bloody good smack' to get them in front of it. If that is what the BHS is teaching lower level riders then we are worried about the wrong things. I don't think whips and spurs should be seen as a punishment or as a 'go faster' aid. The most I'd do is a tap to back up the leg as a wake up call. Or tapping my boot to make a noise. But if a horse has become dull to that too, I would not escalate to actually hitting it with any force. But I have no problem with using whips or spurs for other purposes and don't think a blanket ban is a good idea, personally.

 

[milliepops]

RS horses is such a difficult one. I agree that it's not great for a RS to be teaching the entry level riders to whack the horses. Also.... beginner riders (I don't mean you AE but Stage 1 is the first step up) would probably be frightened by or fall off a properly sensitive horse that was schooled up to be on the aids. Or simply not be in control because the horse would - correctly - respond to aids given accidentally. Plus that sensitive horse would probably find a less skilled rider a bit unsettling.

Greater use of mechanical horses could help true beginners get some basic skills but the nature of the beast is that at some point you have to put that rider onto a horse with its own mind for the first time. if the horse's mind is woah rather than go then the rider stands a chance of coping.

so then you have a problem of switched off horses and riders that need to demonstrate adequate ability for an exam. Tricky to square that one :/

 

[NinjaPony]

RS is a real issue. I ride at a well known dressage centre and they have a good selection of fairly sensitive horses suitable for experienced adults. I don’t ride with a whip on most of them, or spurs on any of them. However, these horses are absolutely not suitable for a novice adult…

I agree heartily that showing should be subject to the same bit rules as dressage, and I’d be happy enough with a whip ban at dressage competitions but unfortunately that only addresses the ‘public facing’ whip/bit issues…

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Even Stage 2 horses are dull. By then you are jumping round 75 cm courses on horses you have never met before. I don't think there should be any exams at true beginner level who need an endlessly tolerant horse to put up with heavy hands and unbalanced riders. You could have badges or whatever instead to chart progress: Your 'trot' badge or your 'canter' badge that basically says you can trot without falling off. Like 5,10,25m badges for swimming.

Official qualificaitons should not be using horses that need hitting to move forward. It's made me really cross actually! Not the lessons which have been good - but I have been on Level 3/4 horses. But the practice sessions and the assessments on Level 1/2 horses.

 

[HollyWoozle]

I have to say that when I watched Badminton this year it seemed to me that 90% of the horses had a flash on, sometimes a flash plus nasal strips on the XC course, and I did start to question equestrianism in general. I'm not saying that a flash can't be fitted correctly and used with care but it was just one thing I noticed and it made me long to see more horses ridden well in simple gear.

 

[oldie48]

I'm another who doesn't buy into the spurs, whips and double bridle are abusive narrative, in the wrong hands any piece of equipment can be misused and used correctly all three have their place tbh anyone who thinks they are used to inflict pain have not understood their use and riders who use them to inflict pain are using them incorrectly.

 

[Birker2020]

When I was teaching 30 years ago the kids would have 10 minutes bareback as part of their lesson. They loved it and it taught them how to ride.

Agree, my instructor when I was a young teen used to get us to take our saddles off at the end of the lesson and vault onto our horses and then stand on their backs just while they were stationary. Its an incredibly hard thing to do in reality even as a child!

 

[Birker2020]

I have to say that when I watched Badminton this year it seemed to me that 90% of the horses had a flash on, sometimes a flash plus nasal strips on the XC course, and I did start to question equestrianism in general..

But don't people agree that tack has gone through various phases throughout the years? Whether this was because these bits and gadgets were brought to the forefront because they featured articles in horsey magazines (nothing was online in the 90's like it is today), or maybe these gadgets were introduced as new methods of training which were filtering down to the masses - who knows?

On our yard in the 90's most people rode in a continental snaffles. Nobody questionned why, we just all had them. Then pelhams started becoming more popular, I don't think I ever knew anyone who used double reins, everything was in roundings, I was also guilty of this!

I remember when Le Gogues, Chambons, and Bungees were in fashion although I didn't own any of these.

I used to have a Market Harborough which was also popular at the time and there was another one which was in popular demand too - I think it was the Harbridge which was a very effective gadget which encouraged acceptance of the contact, improved the outline and encouraged self carriage (or at least it boasted of these things).

Back in the early 90's the fashion was for coloured gamgee squares under bandages, I distinctly remember my colours were black and red. We used to do matchy matchy then too! But not to the extent it is today, it was more to blast around the clear round XC course once a month.

 

[teapot]

On a FEI level - would it be truly safe to be going around a 5* xc with nothing to back your aids up IF you were suddenly faced with a problem (gawking at crowds, napping, spooking at fence decoration etc), I’m not so sure…

Banning bits/certain tack is a tricky one too because some horses just wouldn’t be safe going xc in a loose ring snaffle and a cavesson. What’s more damaging, someone hauling because they’ve had a brakes failure into the crowd, or having something stronger that may mean they get home safer, or a martingale to stop ears in the face etc etc. I don’t think it’s a black and white thing, but unfortunately those who are pushing for change perhaps do (ie the welfare PETA brigade). Having yes or no options when dealing with 600kg of live animal will only end one way imho.

On a riding school level - there are multiple issues I think.

Level of schooling - not every Stage 1 & 2 horse is dull, needs a smack (and I’m a little surprised AE at your post because I know where you’re training & staff there too). You can have safe, off the leg ‘beginner/novice’ horses BUT they have to be in an environment that allows them to still be doing higher level work/brain engaged/ridden by skilled riders. Horses who only ever do novice lessons, will switch off and save themselves.

This is I think is a huge problem - your smaller more average riding school may not have the time, inclination, or staff able to keep horses finely tuned. So you end up in a vicious circle of backwards horses for novices to try and fail to learn on properly so the kicking and the flapping and the ‘give it a smack’ continues. IMHO that’s the biggest failure of some riding schools in the 21st century, and it does nothing from a visual social licence point of view.

One of my absolute favourite horses in an old job was the horse that every kid and adult hated riding ‘he’s such a slug’ ‘he won’t canter’ ‘why do I have to have him’ - that horse had BD points, could half pass, and could do a Stage 1 to 4 if you knew where the buttons were. He wasn’t dull or boring, he just knew his job, was as wily as they came, and gave as little as you ever asked for. Had he had his schooling maintained he would have been a far nicer ride for those less able… RS ponies/horses can show up people of all levels very quickly in my experience, and I hate the immediate ‘well that’s a crap horse’ narrative that comes with it. They may feel ‘dull’ or ‘devoid’ of anything to those who have had their own horses, competed etc, but I think people should remember what their job is and give them some respect for it.

The other thing is as @milliepops mentions is keeping people safe. Your Stage 1 horses can’t be sharp, because how else does the mid 50s lady learn to ride? You can’t have them hitting the deck every week, or being scared away. It’s frowned upon ? So where do they start? Mechanical horses are an option, but from experience of having to explain to people ‘well you start on fake Dobbin’ - it doesn’t go down nearly as well with beginners as it does advanced riders. There’s an expectation/education issue there which would need addressing before beginner actual ridden lessons were ever stopped as a lesson option.

 

[TPO]

IMO the "problem" is that double bridles, spurs, some bits, whips/sticks and some schooling aids have a bad image, so to speak, because we (generic) are used to seeing them used incorrectly, to cause harm and usually by lower level/everyday riders not the pros as usually suggested on these threads.

Used correctly when a horse has been correctly educated then double bridles, shanked bits (western) and spurs are used to refine the aids i.e. use less. Instead of the whole leg it's a slight touch with a spur for example.

However when I think of people who use spurs the pictures thst come to mind are of less than good/empathetic riders with spurs dug into their horses sides. There are plenty of photos and videos on here and SM of people without a stable lower leg who grip up over fences/randomly and have the spurs stuck into their horse's sides. They don't appear to give it a second thought.

That picture is usually completed by a horse with its mouth tied shut and bad hand hauling the bit back. Or better yet a Kineton where they can haul thr head off the horse every time they get left behind over a fence.

I've know many a person bit up a horse and tie it's mouth because it's so strong without any consideration to the fact that they grip up and ride with spurs. So many poor horses can't do right for doing wrong. Go forward off rubbish leg aids and end up hauled back and tied down.

I do think changes are required but I don't think that initially they need levied at (most/all) pros and more a reform of education so that the everyday leisure (even if they compete affiliated!) rider has a greater understanding, knowledge and ability.

There still appears to be a huge disconnect. Even excluding tack how many people know/do condition and fitten a horse correctly because expecting X from them. I've seen plenty of people waddling like John Wayne after a random long ride without a second thought for their equally as unfit horse. Ditto no consideration about how certain exercises or equipment do to the horse and how they might be feeling.

How many people know that their tack isn't fitting properly but "it'll do"? They want to ride after all, saddle fitters are so expensive, they know enough themselves etc. So many people using equipment that they don't understand. I mean who remember the ones of "debate" on here about hanging bits and poll pressure? ?

I honestly don't know where you start.

More and more I think some sort of assessment like the French system might be thr way to go. In an ideal world every yard, yard owner and potential owner would need some sort of meaningful qualification but then again you can't teach empathy.

I mean the bottom line is that people just need to be better and ride better but clearly not everyone is that way inclined. I don't know how you police that or even get a (better worded!) message out to people.

Also while I'm going off on one ego seems to be a much bigger problem these days. Everyone is an "eventer" or a "dressage rider" and already knows it all because they compete affiliated. I remember a time when it seemed like people were more open to learning and being told the truth. Now it's all bekind this and bekind that. Just because the truth might be something you don't want to hear it doesn't mean that its being nasty or bullying.

Everyone also has a right to do what they want and they bought their horse to do X so they'll do that regardless. They seem to have forgotten why they liked horses in the first place as if doing a medium or be100 is the pinnacle of their world.

Maybe of training was better thought of and regarded people would take the time rather than their 56% at prelim making them an authority on "modern dressage". They would be enough "glory" in training and improving thst it would help bypass the spurs and bad riding stage.

I dunno. I just know if reincarnation is a thing I do not want to come back as a horse

 

[Glitter's fun]

Times are changing

I train sheep dogs. Only one generation ago there were otherwise sane, sensible "experts" telling the young beginners that the only way to teach a young dog to stop or go slowly was to overfeed it so it felt sick, then have a rope trailing with a weight on the end. (I could list many other methods of dog training that were "what everyone does" that are as obsolete now as they are reprehensible, but this is a horsey thread!) I don't meet anyone now younger than 40ish who doesn't know about positive conditioning. Things do change and quickly too, if enough people want it.

If they banned spurs, whips, extreme bits, bumped up getting red cards or whatever for anything dodgy seen by stewards etc. then would people be happy with this in general? Does everyone agree that something needs to change? Does anyone have any ideas as to what specific changes need to happen and others than need to be left alone.

You know how they have degrees of difficulty in sports such as diving & ice skating? I'd introduce a rule that you have to start with some faults/time penalties if you are going to compete in an equine sport using whips, spurs, harsh bits.

 

[milliepops]

very easy to dish out the criticism at pros rather than look closer to home, innit.

 

[humblepie]

I show and dressage under different societies - the SSADL and VHS for veteran horses no spurs and would only be carrying a showing cane. Horse will be in a pelham or double, with a cavesson properly fitted (not cranked up). For dressage, I don't carry a whip as to be honest I never use it and it just gets in my way when I halt/salute. I do wear spurs in non veteran classes and for dressage, probably just because I always have done. I don't think he goes any differently.

I smiled at the mention of a Market Harborough above - I had a show jumping pony who was very strong and I was very small - he had a snaffle and a properly fitted Market Harborough which wasn't seen much back then but I think the idea was it only came into play if really needed so much better than a stronger bit. Pony was just seriously keen on jumping!

None of that adds any great thoughts but I agree it is how equipment is used in most cases rather than the equipment itself.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

This almost makes me go down this slippery slope about what or why we're even subjecting these animals to riding anyway.

Sometimes I get a weird moment and wonder if we should be doing any of this at all. Odd mental struggle at times, don't know how to explain it well.

 

[milliepops]

This almost makes me go down this slippery slope about what or why we're even subjecting these animals to riding anyway.

Sometimes I get a weird moment and wonder if we should be doing any of this at all. Odd mental struggle at times, don't know how to explain it well.

Very close to my surface too. I enjoy riding and training horses deeply but the mental gymnastics to justify it is tough. I thought the other day that perhaps i'd just let my homebred doss about and be used for cuddles, something she willingly participates in!

 

[NinjaPony]

I don’t know that it’s such a bad thing to have that doubt in your head. It stops you pushing horses too far, or trying to ‘force’ them to do things, or carrying on when the horse has had enough. It means you might give the horse the benefit of the doubt, investigate the cause of bad behaviour earlier and take some of the damn pressure off, whether you are out competing or just going for a hack. It’s fine to call it a day, it’s fine to get off, it’s fine to pull out of a show because they don’t feel quite right. It doesn’t solve the ethical conundrum of whether we should be riding at all, but it’s a step in the right direction IMO.

 

[milliepops]

I don't disagree... however i think it's the people who already would back off, withdraw from the class or turn for home that then have those thoughts

 

[palo1]

I am in the wondering about it all camp too. However, I find that thinking about the historical links that we have with other species is an interesting perspective. We owe both horses and dogs a huge amount in terms of building what we call human civilisation and I do believe that we have recognised them as partners very often. I think there absolutely is room and integrity for humans to work with animals - including in sporting endeavours, but some things really do need to change. Sadly that is often at the grass roots level. In horsemanship terms we have to move away from the pulling and pushing, the smacking, kicking, anthropomorphising (he's always grumpy, he's naughty etc representation) and recognise horses and dogs as extraordinary beings in their own right that we must work to understand and work WITH what we know of them.

My horses will walk up to me when I carry a bridle into the field (or headcollar) if they fancy working. If not they stroll away from me. I think we have to take that sort of thing into mainstream consideration far, far more. We have to try to remove aspects of status, performance and ego out of our interactions and enjoy the fact that these animals are incredibly generous whilst also accepting that a good level of care and respectful horsemanship including riding can be life enhancing for a domestic animal. Otherwise...well they all have to go don't they and where would that actually leave all of us?

I don't see humans as being fully formed without a deeper engagement with animals; domestic animals are part of our ecosystem and I think their presence in our lives, our knowledge of them and curiosity about them is absolutely vital for human and global survival. I think withdrawing from a partnership with animals would be devastating in a number of ways.

But we do need to change many of our interactions and attitudes. I don't think that the use of whips or spurs is particularly relevant tbh; those are just the cherries on a cake that is full of other stuff!!

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

This isn't any less harsh/cruel/whatever you want to call it than what can be done with a double.. it's not the item but how it is used.



Same goes for this re: spurs or a schooling whip (photo lifted from a HHO nostalgic article about mounted games so haven't redacted child's face)


Policing needs to be upped, but banning these things isn't the way forward. Penalties for over bent horses should be applied, anyone seen using Rolkur should be permanently banned from the sport, or at least a significant ban length. Anyone with an overtight noseband, visible indent into horses face should be banned from competing that day if not for a period of time as so on and so forth. Hit the people where it hurts by banning them for mis-use rather than ban the item. I wouldn't want to ride around XC in a snaffle, or without a whip as it would be A) harsher on a strong horses face and unsafe, and B) Unsafe again if say horse is napping towards a crowd..

 

[Kaylum]

Yes banging on the ponies sides to get it to jump for OUR own satisfaction apparently is acceptable. Not in my school it wasn't. You respect the animal your riding and learn how to ride it from your seat and leg aids.

 

[eahotson]

Times are changing and we're clearly under a lot of pressure to greatly improve welfare standards - the Olympics looks like it will be very different, unless of course the equestrian disiplines are dropped completely! Just saw a very effective picture on my facebook of a dog with a double bridle on with its mouth strapped shut and a whip on its side - it does make sense to me and Im afraid I would agree. I cant watch top level dressage anymore, I find it ugly and unnatural. Much prefer eventing dressage as the horses just seem so much more relaxed. Watching showjumpers beating up their horses in the ring or yanking them to a walk after their round, eventers carrying on across country on clearly tired horses etc. its not acceptable. Professional riders seem to be be untouchable when in actual fact so many of them are the cause of all this. I feel the FEI do not do nearly enough and spend all their efforts trying to cover things up. There's certain rules I dont understand like why do we HAVE to wear a noseband to compete, why are top level do you need to wear a double, why are you allowed to wear spurs in dressage but not carry a schooling whip etc.?

If they banned spurs, whips, extreme bits, bumped up getting red cards or whatever for anything dodgy seen by stewards etc. then would people be happy with this in general? Does everyone agree that something needs to change? Does anyone have any ideas as to what specific changes need to happen and others than need to be left alone.

I absolutely agree with every word of your post.Four or five years ago I was at Bolesworth when I saw a well know show jumper turn in tight to a large fence at an angle.The horse lost momentum and stopped.The large male rider then upended his whip, lent across and dealt his horse a vicious blow.That stick was used as a weapon not an aid.The horse must have been bruised but can't cry out.The judges said nothing.I complained to the BSJA pointing out that it was all on film.They did reply saying that they would look into it but I expect he got the lightest of wrist taps.
If I had been in the ring with my little dog and hit her like that she would have screamed and I would have had most of the audience trying to climb into the ring to kill me.
If I had been in the ring with my

 

[Tiddlypom]

Level of schooling - not every Stage 1 & 2 horse is dull, needs a smack (and I’m a little surprised AE at your post because I know where you’re training & staff there too). You can have safe, off the leg ‘beginner/novice’ horses BUT they have to be in an environment that allows them to still be doing higher level work/brain engaged/ridden by skilled riders. Horses who only ever do novice lessons, will switch off and save themselves.

I agree. My regular mount at my RS lessons is a kind and forgiving (as long as you don't hang on her mouth) steddie neddie, but she moves well off the leg as long as you ride her correctly. The staff at my RS, which is much smaller and less well known than the one AE attends, regularly ride all the school horses to check that the buttons are all still working and that the horses are happy.

Going back to equipment, it is high time for spurs to be banned. They bring nothing to the table. Watching riders legs jiggling about on the horses' sides with spurs jiggling also is grim.

As for whips, that is more tricky. They should never be used for punishment, but going XC without a whip could be more dangerous for both horse and rider than with a whip. Sometimes you need emergency extra impulsion or to straighten up.

 

[TPO]

If only horses weren't silent ?

 

[eahotson]

If only horses weren't silent ?

Wish there was a love button.

 

[stangs]

My two cents on the matter (expressed as tamely/PC as I can manage):

Spurs should never be compulsory. And they certainly shouldn't be consistently used in SJ and XC either. I can understand the refinement argument for using them in dressage, but nothing about jumping requires refined aids.

Bitless should be acceptable, as should going in one of those bit-no-bridle things. If that means that even one horse can compete in tack it prefers, and be a little more comfortable when competing, then that's what needs to happen. Sometimes I wonder if, with all these restrictions, we're not getting a fair sample of high-level riders, since the ones that want to be more alternative may not be able to compete.

The normalisation of flashes is absolutely foul. Almost every time I see someone riding with a flash, it's much too tight, both amateurs or professionals, though professionals seem especially reliant on them. I believe it was Sylvia Loch that said she'd never met a horse that actually needed a flash? Regardless, mouth opens for a reason. You don't deserve to just shove some leather on a horse so you get to ignore why this is happening. I'd quite like for there to be heavy restrictions on their use and serious consequences for anyone who has too tight a flash (again, this is me being tame). (ETA: same with drop nosebands. Very rarely do I see them loose enough, upsettingly often I see them too low down the horse's muzzle, and their use doesn't address why the horse was crossing its jaw, if that's what you're using them for.)

Sure, theoretically, it's about who uses the bit/gadget/etc not the gadget itself, but if something is consistently being used incorrectly, then there need to be restrictions.

As for criticising amateurs instead of professionals... Professionals get paid for this. Professionals are the 'role models' for the sport; they're who represent us at the Olympics, whose example tells amateurs what's acceptable, and whatnot. There needs to be a change in our attitude towards, and education about horses from bottom-up but being stricter on competitive riders is about as quick a "fix" as we've got.