CAN YOU HELP !! :)

[YasandCrystal]

if they HAVE to feed horse then
why not use the horses that are old or not fit for human consumption

I know you are full of good intent and honestly I am a sucker for animals - I pick up stranded worms from the pavement on rainy days and all my dogs are rescues, but I really feel strongly about indiscriminate breeding.
The Germans have got it right - both mares and stallions have to be registered to be bred from and if that means more owners would be 1 horse owners then sobeit. At least there would be less pathetic and poor ponies and horses passed about, many incapable of a real ridden job With some of these ponies passing hands for a few £sss is it any surprise they end up in back gardens or ridden at 2 years old?? I am not being elitist about horse ownership, but if it is done properly it is a darned expensive and time consuming hobby by anyone's standards. Trouble is many don#t do it properly - they delay calling the vet or having teeth done and worming falls by the wayside.

 

[Potato!]

These animals are bred predominantly for meat therefore would NOT have been around long term. Its because of the attitude of people in this country towards animals means that many animals suffer. I AM a horse lover but what you have to understand is that these animals are bred for commercial reasons and not as pets.

I'm sure that if horse meat was eaten in this country then attitudes would be different (more like they are towards cattle and sheep) little fluffy lambs are slaughtered before the are 12 months old but that ok because humans eat those. Im sorry but if beef and lamb is eaten in this country and YES there is a shortage of that, Then they are not going to feed that to animals are they. Think about it.

 

[FallenAngel666]

If they're not fit for human consumption, they won't be in any feed chain.

And old horses certainly do go to the meat man.

So, in your world - surpless stock goes where???

yet they will go into dog food

i never said old horses didnt go to the meat man

i also understand the need for the knackers man and i understand that the overflow of horses do go to slaughter , i dont however see the need for unnessary breeding just to feed the zoos theres plenty of other dying animals including horses available

 

[Potato!]

yet they will go into dog food

i never said old horses didnt go to the meat man

i also understand the need for the knackers man and i understand that the overflow of horses do go to slaughter , i dont however see the need for unnessary breeding just to feed the zoos theres plenty of other dying animals including horses available

It is not unessary though is it because there is a demand for it.

 

[youngfarmer]

i think i missed your question about castration

i have only found one post about hagridette , im not sure of the circumstances behind that but i can certainly find out , or you could ask your yourself Everyone at HOPE would much rather people asked questions that just assume something , alot of us have also become really good friends so some posts on the update pages are refrences from other conversations lol


I cannot answers all your questions honest and truthfully as i havent rehomed a pony BUT i have been following HOPE for about a year and admire what there ultimate long term goal is , which is why they have my support

i agreed that a wild pony would be a challenge and need lots of understanding and patience but a competent novice who is willing to learn and ask advice is just as good IMO

It's a few pages back-would appreciate if you could read it and answer. It's quite a long post so not going to repost it again if I'm honest.

I also found at least 3 posts about Hagrid(ette) and the issue about gender was raised at least twice.

I realise your opinion is that a competent novice is just as good to have a wild pony-but my opinion is that a competent novice shouldn't be allowed to own a wild pony or horse-it's asking for disaster. A competent novice doesn't understand natural behaviours and how they are expressed, they have very limited knowledge about the reasons behind training methods (and even less knowledge on how to apply and use these training methods successfully and constructively) and in the majority of cases have limited knowledge about all aspects of care for the horse. For example-I have seen 1 picture on there of horses on concrete ground, in what looks to be some sort of travellers park-and yes travellers horses can thrive relatively well on this, so no disrespect to travellers. Just describing the picture-and where there is sheer lack of quality grazing and they are just being fed a hell of a lot of carrots. Now-competent novice owners, and even ones who have more experience but by no means understand some aspects of horse care-do not understand that feeding large amounts of carrots is actually harmful to horses. They contain far too much sugar and can't count for a proper diet. Even half the stuff experienced horse owners feed their horses isn't necessarily good for them. Horses thrive on good pasture with natural plants (such as herbs) growing in the area. (Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to feed horses and what is contained in feeds, how it benefits or negatively effects horses-so not saying do not feed your horse. But the majority of horses don't need half the stuff we do feed)

I personally think HOPE and other charities like them, should be heading towards educating a larger amount of people on correct horse care and breeding. Not just focusing on rehoming horses to homes that, in a lot of cases, have no idea about the basics of horse care.

EDIT: When I say training methods-it doesn't just count for riding. Training counts for picking feet up all the way to performing at GP level. It includes teaching desired behaviours and ensuring unwanted behaviours are not expressed.

 

[AmyMay]

yet they will go into dog food

I'm sorry, but you are showing a shocking amount of ignorance here. Cat and dog food has to be suitable for human consumption, that is the law. So any horse meat contained therein - has to be fit for human consumption.

i also understand the need for the knackers man and i understand that the overflow of horses do go to slaughter , i dont however see the need for unnessary breeding just to feed the zoos theres plenty of other dying animals including horses available

It's called supply and demand - just like beef, lamb, pork, chicken.......

Shall I go on?

 

[Potato!]

It's called supply and demand - just like beef, lamb, pork, chicken.......

Shall I go on?

^^^^This im sorry you have his idea that ponies are different but actually there is no difference except human attitude dictates that its ok for the likes of cows, pigs, lambs, chickens because they dont matter.

 

[Rayado05]

Hi All,

I don't use FB or anything and do not wish to enter any arguments nor comment on the work done by HOPE.

I do have some questions though, would someone be kind enough to answer (From HOPE maybe/).

What use is the gelding to the farmer?
How does the farmer view the gelding it serves little purpose for him now?

How many stallions/mares in total run free on Dartmoor?

If I understand correctly the horses are bred for meat - am I right here?

How is inbreeding prevented with mares and stallions running lose?
Sorry if I missed something, I have no experience of such moorland situations.

I think someone mentioned castration prior to sale - I think this would be wise - could you not set something up that the buyer pays this but the horse is released upon castration being done or their vet confirming it will be done?
I think RSPCA castrate everything (please correct me if I am wrong).

Thank you in advance.

 

[Potato!]

In 1950 there were approximately 30,000 ponies on the moor. Today there are fewer than 3,000. This decline is due to a combination of factors:
•a reduction in the demand for pit ponies and ponies for meat.
•a large part of a Dartmoor farmer’s income comes from Government and European subsidies for keeping cattle and sheep on the uplands. There are no Government or European subsidies for ponies. The price received at market is very low and ponies graze land that could be utilised by more profitable stock.



Dartmoor Commoners’ Council’s Stallion Support Scheme

The Dartmoor Commoners’ Council introduced this in 1999 to ensure that ponies not hardy enough to survive on the moor are not bred. Regulations have been put in place by the Council to ensure that only stallions that have been inspected and approved by an independent vet to be hardy, healthy, and of good confirmation are allowed out on the commons.

To ensure that mares do not mate with their own offspring all colt foals must come off the moor during their first year. They must remain off the commons until after they are two years old. They may then only go back on the commons if they have been approved as a stallion through the scheme, or castrated. To prevent young filly foals mating at too young an age, they too must come off the commons in their first year. They must stay off until the following year.

 

[Pippamoo]

Oh Pippamoo - please stop! You are just showing up your ignorance more and more! (sorry to keep picking on you but I can't bite my tongue!)

Oh Ravenwood please stop picking on me! ! am asking and listening and learning. If I was afraid of showing my ignorance, I would never learn anything. I will not apologise for not knowing things already, and living in the national park I am realising how difficult it can be. Feel free to ignore my posts if they annoy you, but actually I am really enjoying getting my head around all this. I will contribute to this area in some way, (other than teaching its vulnerable young people that is, which is what my other job is).

 

[char3479]

Thanks Rhino. Didn't even know there was another page

And that says it all to me. Having read through this 'discussion' it is apparent that lots of people are happy to voice their opinions on a subject they have no understanding of.
youngfarmer, I find your condescending, critical, negative comments deeply irritating. That aside, you are ignorant of most of the subject matter you are sounding off about.
Empty vessels make the most noise as they say...

 

[char3479]

I first heard about this in an article in H & H in Jan this year. Entitled 'Dartmoor pony rescue group needs homes for unwanted youngsters' it is where I first begain learning about this subject. Search for it in the news section. Please also see www.dartmoorhillpony.com which tells you lots about the breed and efforts to manage it.
You might bother to check out the 'Rescued Dartmoor Ponies update' page on Facebook which shows where some of the ponies ended up.
Call me old-fashioned but I always try to understand a subject before passing comment on it. It's such a shame that so many comments on here are by people who like to give their opinions but don't actually understand the subject.
PS I have three Dartmoor Hill Ponies, photos under my name, Caroline Harrison, on the update page. Are mine deformed youngfarmer? I'm really intrigued to read your diagnosis and any other delightful comments you feel qualified to make. What are your qualifications by the way?

 

[Potato!]

Please do NOT tell me that i don't know what im taling about!!!

 

[youngfarmer]

And that says it all to me. Having read through this 'discussion' it is apparent that lots of people are happy to voice their opinions on a subject they have no understanding of.
youngfarmer, I find your condescending, critical, negative comments deeply irritating. That aside, you are ignorant of most of the subject matter you are sounding off about.
Empty vessels make the most noise as they say...

I was actually asking questions which could relate to any charity, and responding to answers given to me with more direct questions about HOPE at times. Having read their facebook page which is the 1 I have referred to and seen questions being answered on there, I felt I had some insight into HOPE but actually, have also said (and other charities) the whole way through.

Having been involved with other charities who claim to do the same thing, I do feel like I'm not actually ignorant of the subject matter I am "sounding off about". Infact, quite the opposite. Ignorant in some respects of HOPE, yes, but not of the subject at hand.

I have also asked questions on the HOPE facebook page earlier this morning, and received no reply. So where else was I meant to ask questions and make comments? End of the day, this is a public forum where plenty of other people have also made comment.

Welcome too-and a fantastic first post

 

[youngfarmer]

I first heard about this in an article in H & H in Jan this year. Entitled 'Dartmoor pony rescue group needs homes for unwanted youngsters' it is where I first begain learning about this subject. Search for it in the news section. Please also see www.dartmoorhillpony.com which tells you lots about the breed and efforts to manage it.
You might bother to check out the 'Rescued Dartmoor Ponies update' page on Facebook which shows where some of the ponies ended up.
Call me old-fashioned but I always try to understand a subject before passing comment on it. It's such a shame that so many comments on here are by people who like to give their opinions but don't actually understand the subject.
PS I have three Dartmoor Hill Ponies, photos under my name, Caroline Harrison, on the update page. Are mine deformed youngfarmer? I'm really intrigued to read your diagnosis and any other delightful comments you feel qualified to make. What are your qualifications by the way?

1) Have read the Rescued Dartmoor Ponies update page-which is where I have asked questions this morning but have had no reply
2) I would have to look at the page again to see if any of your have deformities/birth defects which need correction
3) 2 college courses at the moment, but soon to be a Bsc (Hons) in breeding and stud management. As well and over 4 (this being my 5th) years of being taught just on an educational level but also practically for years about care of foals/dealing with defects/correctional work done on young horses/management of horses/breaking and schooling/working for olympic riders etc etc. As well as 17 years of riding/competing/working in industry and a long time breaking and schooling.

However, I don't think I know it all. I was simply asking questions and hadn't even built an opinion on HOPE itself. I had built an opinion on some of the people on there and actually know 1 of them personally and know that she shouldn't be any where near 1 of these ponies.

 

[Ladylina83]

I've not read all of this and I might be missing a trick here..................... but if they JUST rehomed/ removed the colts every year and used the £££ from selling them for meat or to homes to geld the ones that don't sell would the population not go down ????

My yearlings best mateis a darty and he is fab broken to ride in 3 weeks flat lives out and is so loving and true - I wouldn't like to see them dissapear completely but there has to be a natural way of slowing down the breeding !

I hope all the ones up for rehoming are male !

 

[char3479]

Please do NOT tell me that i don't know what im taling about!!!

Actually, you are one of the few on here who do seem to know what they're talking about as far as Dartmoor Hill ponies and practises on Dartmoor go. Obviously if your OH is a farmer on Dartmoor, you are well placed to comment on the situation.
Don't agree with all you say though and I think you're really negative about HOPE but as youngfarmer says it's a public forum...

youngfarmer, if you do have genuine concerns about a person who's rehomed a pony, email the web page. They will get back to you.

 

[Potato!]

So what don't you agree with?

 

[Potato!]

The reason I'm negative re hope and other 'rescue' centres are always claiming that the ponies are neglected etc and that it's cruel that these ponies are rounded up and sold to the meat trade. And that by revoking these ponies means that they are decreasing the number of ponies being bred when actually they are not because farmers cannot afford to keep these mares barren they have to sell the foals to justify keeping the mares it's a business and they are not pets

 

[Potato!]

Argh stupid phone. I meant re homing these ponies

 

[char3479]

So what don't you agree with?

The comment about the 'mentality of these people'. I'm assuming you're referring to those of us who have taken in DHP foals.
My mentality is fine thanks. I'm an intelligent, professional woman with many years of experience with horses and even the odd qualification to boot. I'm not suggesting the ponies are mistreated in any way. They are feral and as to be expected are hairy, worm ridden, lice ridden and what we would consider underweight in a domestic horse. I simply wanted to offer a home to a couple of foals who otherwise wouldn't have a chance at life. I'm not expecting anything of them - I am happy to have them. I make no apologies for being sentimental or glad that I have saved them from being shot at 6 months old. I am not naive enough to think that I have made a huge difference anywhere but I don't think I have made the situation worse by any means.
HOPE have helped reduce the over-breeding by working with a farmer to have him remove his stallions. Perhaps those gelded are with the meatman, but the long term situation has hopefully improved a little bit.

As you said, most of the farmers have no patience with 'rescues' which is why the name of this farmer hasn't been publicised - the relationship between him and HOPE is delicate.

 

[Potato!]

Never assume, The mentality of people I'm referring to is that it's fine to slaughter cattle and sheep etc but the fluffy ponies are only babies and should not be allowed to be killed for meat when we can feed beef etc to animals in the zoo. But most of them will go home and eat meat that was once an animal at some time but it's ok cause it was not a pony

 

[Potato!]

Im sorry but I bet the farmer has gelded his stallion and will not turn out a stallion for a year after he made sure his mares were in foal. Then will put a different stallion back with them next year

 

[youngfarmer]

Im sorry but I bet the farmer has gelded his stallion and will not turn out a stallion for a year after he made sure his mares were in foal. Then will put a different stallion back with them next year

This was exactly what I was thinking to be honest!

 

[youngfarmer]

They are feral

According to HOPE, they are not feral. http://www.facebook.com/dartmoorrescuehope one of the admins of this page even said so themselves. It does raise a few alarm bells in my head when someone who is clearly quite high up in this charity can say an animal is not feral, and then in literally the next sentence describe exactly what a feral animal is and say that is what one of these ponies are...

Can't see any pictures of your ponies either, took me long enough to find you on the page! If you send me some links I will happily answer your questions about deformities/defects

 

[jhoward]

The comment about the 'mentality of these people'. I'm assuming you're referring to those of us who have taken in DHP foals.
My mentality is fine thanks. I'm an intelligent, professional woman with many years of experience with horses and even the odd qualification to boot. I'm not suggesting the ponies are mistreated in any way. They are feral and as to be expected are hairy, worm ridden, lice ridden and what we would consider underweight in a domestic horse. I simply wanted to offer a home to a couple of foals who otherwise wouldn't have a chance at life. I'm not expecting anything of them - I am happy to have them. I make no apologies for being sentimental or glad that I have saved them from being shot at 6 months old. I am not naive enough to think that I have made a huge difference anywhere but I don't think I have made the situation worse by any means.
HOPE have helped reduce the over-breeding by working with a farmer to have him remove his stallions. Perhaps those gelded are with the meatman, but the long term situation has hopefully improved a little bit.

As you said, most of the farmers have no patience with 'rescues' which is why the name of this farmer hasn't been publicised - the relationship between him and HOPE is delicate.

Char, its not about the ponies as such, as i said i know some right little crackers, its about charities setting up (although not sure that is the right word) that go OMG save the poor ickle ponies.

they in effect create a demand as people as others on this thread then and go buy them,

but that alone isnt what it is about. it is about producing badley bred and over bred stock, the moor at the end of the day needs the ponies.. but why not let a herd stay out and stay established until older years? as i say the moor needs them, for grazing, history etc.

the farmers themselfs many dont have a huge amount of equine knowledge they have for many years farmed stock as sheep/cattle which again is why the ponies are treated as meat stock no the famers dont all care if the cute ickle foal is about to feed the big cats at bristol zoo.

whilst everyone is campaining to save the ponies they do more damage to the overal bigger picture, let the ponies serve the purpose, get better stock bred and for longer then the issues would be reduced.

The people behind some of these rescues need to be looked at to, i know one set up that has been around for a few years and things that have happened, i totally do not agree with. which re iterates my point.. its any tom dick or idoit building a website and going save the ponies!

sad but very very true.

 

[Potato!]

To be fair the most of the farmers have grown up with these ponies and its just the way feral ponies are kept. the youngsters are taken off the moor before they reach sexual maturity so colts do not breed with their mothers and sisters and fillies are not put back on the moor until they are old enough to go to the stallion.


I would say that most of them have got alot of equine knowlege as i know many of them show very successfully.

 

[FionaM12]

I've just worked my way through this whole thread from start to finish (phew..!). H.O.P.E. seem well-intended but I'm not convinced they're really helping the ponies' situation in the long run. Just my personal view.

One thing I would like to say is to say an animal is a mongrel or not pure-bred doesn't always mean it's poorly bred. Nor does "pure-bred" or "pedigree" always mean well bred. I used to work with pedigree dogs and remember some which were hopelessly in-bred (brother X sister sometimes) while I've known some wonderful, handsome, healthy and long-lived mongrel dogs.

I'm sure we'd agree that very careful selective breeding between different breeds of horses can produce wonderful animals. And doing so in the past created the origins of various breeds and types we now consider pure bred.

It's not the breeding of mongrels which is the problem imo, it's the indiscrimate thoughtless breeding of any horses, whether pedigrees or not.

But mongrel does not always = bad/of less value

(Just speaking up in defence of my mongrel dog and mongrel mare )

 

[jhoward]

To be fair the most of the farmers have grown up with these ponies and its just the way feral ponies are kept. the youngsters are taken off the moor before they reach sexual maturity so colts do not breed with their mothers and sisters and fillies are not put back on the moor until they are old enough to go to the stallion.


I would say that most of them have got alot of equine knowlege as i know many of them show very successfully.

not the ones ive met.. but im talking about the other side of the moor, personally id like to pick them up shake them then chuck them out back on the moor.

primes example.. the spotty that was on the more big hooo har about about so what happens the next year.. oh everyone loved the spotty lets breed more! and so they did, and so the poor spotties bred to meet a trend went to the incinerator..

 

[Potato!]

Im not saying all farmers are are experienced. However it was a business decision and yes a bad one at that. And a foal is better than no foal. Now I'm not sure what happened on the otherside of the moor but the farmers that I know have been keeping these ponies for generations so do know what they are doing.