CAN YOU HELP !! :)

[Pippamoo]

Pippamoo, did you say you have only very recently got into horses but have rehomed one of these ponies? Just trying to get it all straight in my mind.
Partly - we bought a family pony (not a Dartmoor) a few months ago and have fallen in love with her..and now feel even more passionately about the moorland ponies. We have not rehomed a foal as not enough land or time to devote to a semi feral foal at the moment.


So a very long, rambling and boring post to simply say - don't dismiss the management and judgement of the generation of families who have worked the area.

I agree, and am genuinely up for listening and learning before I decide where to throw my campaigning energies!

I applaud anyone who is dedicating their life to trying to redress the problem and I guess we will have to wait a few more years yet to see if it works or not.

And again I agree - let's hope things improve for people, ponies and the moor!

 

[Ravenwood]

Please don't take offence but if you have next to no experience of ponies, no experience of managing moorland and are new to the area - please may I suggest you throw your campaigning desires into something you do know about.

 

[jhoward]

Breeder are breeder no matter what they breed, I have 2 Dartmoor hill ponies, they came from the sales not hope, tbh my warmblood from the only breeder in the uk, came to me in worse condition than both of the dartmoors, he has more faults than both of them. My dartmoors will always be semi ferrel, no matter how much training they have, one thing they are are show winning ponies, and fab kids ponies. They mix well with my other 10 horses, if you want a push button pony u don't get a Dartmoor hill pony. Over breeding will always happen until some control is put in place, it may be tb or warmbloods or scabby hill ponies, it does not make one better than the other, and it sure as hell does not give people to put them all mongrels.

look up the meening of mongrel. it sure as hell gives us the right to call them mongrels.. as that even if you get the odd hand full that have good confimation, they are still in effect MONGRELS.

as for them always being semi feral that is a load of rubbish, if handled by experiance people they go on to become a normal well adjusted pony. im not sure how you can call something semi feral but show winning yet alone if it still has an eliment of wildness about it deam it safe to be a childs pony..

 

[AmyMay]

The ponies HOPE rehome are not just given to anyone, any potential owner is vetted to make sure they are able to give these ponies the care and handling they need.

There is currently a thread running on their fb page where an enquirer, who has no equine experience, no references etc. is being told that they may be a potential adoptee.....

That is a real problem with some less regulated organisations and more often than not ends in complete disaster.

I've nothing against helping an animal in need - but organisations must make sure that their re-homing policies are robust and adhered to.


I quote:

Enquirer: I havent had a pony before so havent got any information that you need is there any other way of havin one of these pony x

Dartmoor Rescue: ah right ok, do you have a pet vet? have attended a riding school or something where we could get some references from?

Enquirer: Not at the moment i dont have any of the following sorry x

Dartmoor Rescue: ok, if you email us anyway i will ask mary 2moro to contact you, and we will see if we can find a way around all of this. thankyou x

 

[AmyMay]

how do you geld a 6 month old colt with no bits

I think, FallenAngel, that if you want to promote your cause - you're going to have to make a slightly more intelligent and responsible answer to a legitimate question.

 

[rhino]

Well it's fairly easy to see why we had the sudden influx of new posters:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rescued-Dartmoor-ponies-update/182951045060720

I particularly like these quotes about us HHOers:

yeah i know , think they alll prefer there big stupid tb event horses

i cant honestly see anyone on H&H actually wanting a "scabby mixed breed wild pony" lol but thought they might of had a heart at least

why are all most all the posters on H&H coming across as such hard hearted sods, you would think they were animal lovers on there but they certainly don't seem to give a damn about animal welfare, people like that make me sick!

wow! n these people are sposd to love their animals i wouldnt let them take my dog for a walk never mind have a horse with views like that i understand people are entitled them but its just cruel x

Horse and hound is full of stuck up snob horse owners who care more about having the best of the best than having an equine friend

I would also really, really like to know more about 'Kirsten' and 'the situation'

 

[AmyMay]

Deleted, because I'm a penny short of a shilling......

 

[jhoward]

Well it's fairly easy to see why we had the sudden influx of new posters:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rescued-Dartmoor-ponies-update/182951045060720

I particularly like these quotes about us HHOers:










I would also really, really like to know more about 'Kirsten' and 'the situation'

pmsfl.. to be honest if horse meat was sold in this country id happily eat one of the scabbie mongrels, least they would have a purpose and reason to be bred, and the farmers would actully make some money.

ah well off to do my big posh expensive horse and give the heinze pony a hack... sorry my mongrel pony LOL.

 

[AmyMay]

I would also really, really like to know more about 'Kirsten' and 'the situation'

If the situation as reported on FB is that she's lost her grazing then surely Hope step in to help?

Or, as they are in fact dealing on behalf of the 'farmer' are they not in a position to do this, as they don't havethe land???

 

[Potato!]

Well it's fairly easy to see why we had the sudden influx of new posters:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rescued-Dartmoor-ponies-update/182951045060720

I particularly like these quotes about us HHOers:










I would also really, really like to know more about 'Kirsten' and 'the situation'

Well that is funny. Im sorry that we have realistic views on the whole situation. Im off to fit the saddle on my new Heinz 57 horsie , oh wait he is also a mongrel horsie Unknown breeding. So i can go out and help my neighbouring farmer to check on his moorland ponies

 

[rhino]

Well that is funny. Im sorry that we have realistic views on the whole situation. Im off to fit the saddle on my new Heinz 57 horsie , oh wait he is also a mongrel horsie Unknown breeding. So i can go out and help my neighbouring farmer to check on his moorland ponies

and I'm off to ride my big stupid tb event horse.

Ah, wait, that's not right. I'm off to ride someone else's wee stupid welsh cross pony, which was bought as a semi feral case and needs some basic manners and schooling instilled

 

[saturday]

i find it totally discusting that a few of you are pretty much laughing about the fb page and that these ponies will be going to slaughter.

the 2 ladies who are trying to find homes for these ponies are doing it out of kindness, no they are not getting back handers, or 'dealing' for the farmer as someone suggested.

the lady with no equine experence will more than likely not get one of these ponies,

oh and for the few of you who want to no more info about kirsten, - from what i understand - she was offered help, but she is wanting to sort it herself,

i love the way ppl are copy & pasting all the comments from the fb pages. thats what kids do to try and catch others out,


have a bloody heart FFS, or grow up, - or BOTH.

 

[rhino]

That'll be me then! Not trying to catch anyone out, but surely you know that anything you put in the public domain is likely to stay there for a very long time! I do however think it illustrated perfectly the point made earlier that a lot of these so called 'rescuers' simply do not understand what is happening with overbreeding in this country, or the management of feral herds of equines.

No one is laughing about the ponies and I fail to see how it could be construed from what you have read on here. I did find the literacy skills (or lack of) on the fb page fairly amusing however.

Have a heart - I already do thanks. In fact I seem to spend the majority of my time at the moment sorting out problems with small ponies - mostly ones who have ended up in unsuitable homes including several who were 'rescued'.

I will not give money to perpetuate this cycle, it is my prerogative and I have every right to voice my opinions on this thread. As you can see the majority of other posters on here agree.

 

[Potato!]

Im sorry I am laughing because I do not understand the mentality of these people. The ponies are bred for meat the same and cattle and sheep end of!! It’s only because of the the fact that we do not eat horses in this country. If we did then I wouldn’t hesitate to eat horses.

So are people in countries where they do eat horses heartless. No I don’t think so!!

Its only because The ‘RESCUE’ centres take photos of dirty hariy ponies that are wild and therefore don’t look cared for. That people feel sorry for them and think they are mistreated when they are NOT.

 

[AmyMay]

i find it totally discusting that a few of you are pretty much laughing about the fb page and that these ponies will be going to slaughter.

the 2 ladies who are trying to find homes for these ponies are doing it out of kindness, no they are not getting back handers, or 'dealing' for the farmer as someone suggested.

the lady with no equine experence will more than likely not get one of these ponies,

oh and for the few of you who want to no more info about kirsten, - from what i understand - she was offered help, but she is wanting to sort it herself,

i love the way ppl are copy & pasting all the comments from the fb pages. thats what kids do to try and catch others out,


have a bloody heart FFS, or grow up, - or BOTH.

Ahh, you need to spend a bit more time on HHO to understand where the majority of posters are coming from.

People on this forum are very genuine animal lovers - despite what you may think. However, unfortunately people on this forum are also only too aware of the crisis faced in the equine world with over breeding and an excess of 'feral' stock going through the sales ring for pennies. Often, and sadly, going to the meat man. Most therefore have a very real sense of practicality when it comes to this issue. Practicality and common sense. That can come across as not caring, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

People on this forum, too, recognise that the only way to stop this crisis is to stop over breeding - and many feel (like myself) that the only way for this to happen is if there is absolutely no market for these ponies. The 'market' being either through the sales ring, or direct marketing through some organisations that have set themselves up as 'resuce' organisations (with all good intentions).

The emotive language used by some of these organisations aims to play on peoples sense of injustice that any horse or pony should go for slaughter. And that is like a red rag to a bull, I'm afraid. Becuase the fact is that there is a market for horse meat, for whatever purpose, and that will never change. It's also not a bad thing. Just look at the USA.....

I would like to know what resources Hope have in place to ensure a happy outcome for every single pony it homes. Because the organisation does not seem to have a robust homing policy, ponies are not homed on contract, and ponies can not be returned to them should the need arise. They are, therefore, merely acting as an agent to the farmer who is selling these ponies (albeit for no personal gain, and no doubt out of a sense of kindness). Yes, I used the word 'dealing'.

As for 'Kirsten' again, this situation should not have arisen. Becuase with a homing policy and contract - the ponies just go back to the 'rescue' organisation for re-homing.

I'm glad that the lady who has no experience will not be a successful candidate for homing. But of course the question should never have arisen in the first place. No reputable organisation would home in this situation.

It's also not about having a heart or growing up. It's about economic facts, of which people on here are only too aware.

For the record I do hope that the remaining youngstock are homed successfully and responsibly. But remember, there are only so many bleeding heart homes out there. And until stocks are reduced the crisis will remain.

You should also take the time to read through the forum to see for yourself the wonderful variety of horses and ponies that members own. You'd be suprised at the mix, and the inaccuracies of the assumptions made on FB..........

Your outrage, Saturday, would be better used to do something positive, constructive and intelligent.

 

[Mare Stare]

i find it totally discusting that a few of you are pretty much laughing about the fb page and that these ponies will be going to slaughter.

.

Well I find it totally disgusting that you are talking about us on fb when our concerns are quite legitimate.

Thousands of native ponies are going to slaughter at the moment - not just your Dartmoor Hill Ponies but pure bred Welsh, New Forest etc, even ones that have been in loving homes all their lives.

There is a risk of any native pony being sold through auction ending up in the meat wagon. Tbh the slaughterman's bolt gun is a better option than these ponies ending up with families who haven't got a clue about equine welfare or behaviour as they will end up being passed about and sold on and probably end up being slaughtered in the end. I beg you to go to an auction and watch how many native youngsters don't sell or end up being bought by a meat man.

As someone who is trying to get back a horse that has ended up in the wrong hands, I know how much distress, illness and behaviour problems stem from being handled incorrectly by ignorant people who have a fluffy idea about horse ownership. Half of me wishes that I had had my boy put to sleep because at least the end would have been quick and painless.

The main problem people have had on this website is that nobody wants to encourage the breeding of these animals because the situation will only worsen.

As it is, f the the fee is only £52 we now understand that noone is profitting from these animals BUT people are concerned that selling cheap uncastrated males will encourage people who have no idea about how many ponies are being slaughtered to breed, thinking they are going to make a quick buck, when the opposite is true. And also, how many people will take on a cute looking colt to later realise that they've ended up with a bolshy stallion that they cannot control?

We're just not fluffy minded over here. A lot of us have already seen the darker side of the horse breeding industry.

ETA - Cross posted with Amy May who puts the point across better than I do.

 

[Potato!]

What really gets my Goat is when people attack our way of life accusing us of being cruel when that do not have much of an idea on how to keep ponies. You cannot look after them like you would other horses when they need to be hardy to withstand a winter out on Dartmoor.
By bringing the cattle off the moor has effectively ruined the breeds as now they get all sort of ailments which they did not get when kept out on the moor. It is the same for the ponies. You cannot simply bring them off the moor for the winter them put them back in the spring that brings all sorts of health problems and illnesses.

 

[Pippamoo]

Please don't take offence but if you have next to no experience of ponies, no experience of managing moorland and are new to the area - please may I suggest you throw your campaigning desires into something you do know about.

Actually, that's not really fair - I am doing everything I can to learn more about this place I now live in (and chose to live in because I know it and love it so much) and to ensure its conservation for years to come. I don't pretend to be an expert, that's why I make it clear that I am on a learning curve. My campaigning energies are considerable, and even though I am a newcomer I have a great deal to offer this area! I have found people here incredibly welcoming and open, and would hate to think that I could never get involved with conservation etc just because I wasn't brought up here.

As far as the original thread goes, I fully understand why people may worry about the ethics of rehoming these foals, but I maintain that in this case there are no ulterior or financial motives.

 

[Pippamoo]

There is currently a thread running on their fb page where an enquirer, who has no equine experience, no references etc. is being told that they may be a potential adoptee.....

That is a real problem with some less regulated organisations and more often than not ends in complete disaster.

I've nothing against helping an animal in need - but organisations must make sure that their re-homing policies are robust and adhered to.


I quote:

Enquirer: I havent had a pony before so havent got any information that you need is there any other way of havin one of these pony x

Dartmoor Rescue: ah right ok, do you have a pet vet? have attended a riding school or something where we could get some references from?

Enquirer: Not at the moment i dont have any of the following sorry x

Dartmoor Rescue: ok, if you email us anyway i will ask mary 2moro to contact you, and we will see if we can find a way around all of this. thankyou x

Further down the thread, Dartmoor Rescue says that she does not want to discuss the applicant's personal details on facebook and makes it clear that there is further dialogue that readers are not party to. It may well be that she is trying to maintain the goodwill of the applicant towards the cause and does not want to rudely reject her on facebook?


Furthermore, I think people, even those who are slated for having "no equine experience" , who are prepared to listen to advice and care about these ponies may be better than the slaughterhouse. No one objected when I bought and paid for a pony when I was a complete novice around ponies, and I am doing a pretty good job with her (with a little help from my friends, who are experts).

 

[AmyMay]

Further down the thread, Dartmoor Rescue says that she does not want to discuss the applicant's personal details on facebook and makes it clear that there is further dialogue that readers are not party to. It may well be that she is trying to maintain the goodwill of the applicant towards the cause and does not want to rudely reject her on facebook?

And of course that is absolutely appropriate. The phrase we will see if we can find a way around all of this was slightly worrying. But I take your point about good will.

Furthermore, I think people, even those who are slated for having "no equine experience" , who are prepared to listen to advice and care about these ponies may be better than the slaughterhouse. No one objected when I bought and paid for a pony when I was a complete novice around ponies, and I am doing a pretty good job with her (with a little help from my friends, who are experts).

Novice owners are worth their weight in gold. But feral ponies must be homed appropriately. And to my knowledge the enquirer has not been slated...

 

[Mare Stare]

Furthermore, I think people, even those who are slated for having "no equine experience" , who are prepared to listen to advice and care about these ponies may be better than the slaughterhouse. No one objected when I bought and paid for a pony when I was a complete novice around ponies, and I am doing a pretty good job with her (with a little help from my friends, who are experts).

That's what I thought when I gifted a horse to a lady who asked if I had any horses for sale. I gave her loads of advice. I even gave her a book and wrote down different websites that would help her. She told me that her sister kept horses and that she'd get plenty of help from her. Turns out her sister is as much of a numpty as her.

What happened? She's feeding him chaff (basically cut up straw - usually used as a filler for greedy horses), she rarely goes to see him, she wasn't giving him enough water, she hasn't given him hay even though the grass he is on is terrible, she loaded him using 4 other people to push, beat him and pull him into the wagon, she hasn't got a clue how to handle him, didn't know how to pick his feet up when he was lame and still hasn't paid the vet. Oh and she's left him uncut and living with a miniature shetland mare.

The RSPCA are now investigating.

Some people refuse to take advice.

 

[Pippamoo]

Just for the record, I am not attacking anyone and understand the decision not to pay any money as it helps create a market. My personal decision would be to rescue this lot if I could and simultaneously try to address the overbreeding (which is actually what HOPE want to do and how this thread started).

Two genuine questions to further my understanding..

I am not clear whether we need more ponies grazing the moor (referring to something Burness said) or fewer ponies! What do people think?

Also, the one thing many agree on here is that this is not a good situation, so I am still trying to understand who it is that keeps creating it?

 

[Pippamoo]

That's what I thought when I gifted a horse to a lady who asked if I had any horses for sale. I gave her loads of advice. I even gave her a book and wrote down different websites that would help her. She told me that her sister kept horses and that she'd get plenty of help from her. Turns out her sister is as much of a numpty as her.

What happened? She's feeding him chaff (basically cut up straw - usually used as a filler for greedy horses), she rarely goes to see him, she wasn't giving him enough water, she hasn't given him hay even though the grass he is on is terrible, she loaded him using 4 other people to push, beat him and pull him into the wagon, she hasn't got a clue how to handle him, didn't know how to pick his feet up when he was lame and still hasn't paid the vet. Oh and she's left him uncut and living with a miniature shetland mare.

The RSPCA are now investigating.


Some people refuse to take advice.

That's a shame - sadly there are ignorant and unkind people amongst experienced and inexperienced alike. I really hope the RSPCA get this sorted for that horse and that things get better for him.

 

[AmyMay]

Also, the one thing many agree on here is that this is not a good situation, so I am still trying to understand who it is that keeps creating it?

Tradition, greed, laziness, bad management.....

Take your pick.

 

[Potato!]

I am not clear whether we need more ponies grazing the moor (referring to something Burness said) or fewer ponies! What do people think?

QUOTE]


I did not say that we needed more ponies on the moor I was simply stating that there are a lot less ponies on the moor now than there used to be also by taking the cattle off the moor in the winter is contributing to grass growing up so much it becomes inedible.

The reason the cattle are not allowed on the moor according to natural England and the national park – it makes a mess!!

 

[youngfarmer]

how do you geld a 6 month old colt with no bits

How do they know they have no bits? Are they checked weekly for any changes? My uni stud geld all of the colts at 6 months unless 1) the owner states they don't want them gelded 2) the horse has potential and top breeding (and yet sometimes they still geld them!) 3) they haven't completely dropped yet, in which case they are checked constantly (weekly) and when both have dropped they come straight off 4) the horse could do with having them attached for a bit longer due to being very small and wanting it to grow a bit more quicker and then taking them off.

Every stud I know have them taken off at 6 months unless there is a good reason to keep them on. If there is a good reason, they're separated from the fillies and mares until they come off or permanently if they are to be a breeding animal.

Can I ask how people know for definite that these stallions are castrated? Does the farmer say "I'll get them done soon/the right time of year/when he's matured or grown a bit/when I feel it needs to be done"? Or is HOPE (and other charities) present when the horse is gelded/have something signed by a recognised vet? Do these charities check that these stallions are gelded themselves (as in have a look and have a feel)?

Also-why do HOPE (and other charities, again) not have the colts castrated before being rehomed?

Might seem like stupid questions but I'm sure some farmers will be dishonest. I've also not read the whole thread yet so don't know if these have already been answered. Sorry if they have been!

 

[Mare Stare]

That's a shame - sadly there are ignorant and unkind people amongst experienced and inexperienced alike. I really hope the RSPCA get this sorted for that horse and that things get better for him.

Thankyou. He's a beautiful boy. It's been the worst mistake I've ever made. I really hate myself for it but at the time I thought I was doiing good and he'd be going to a home where he'd be loved and fussed. I'd do anything to get him back - I've even thought about getting a trailer and just stealing him but apparently that's illegal . I think the RSPCA have a policy where they won't rehome a horse in the same area that it's come from so I'll never be able to make it up to him.

Anyway, I can't comment on the Dartmoor situation as it's not my neck of the woods but I know many people who have a romanticised idea of horse breeding. They start with a pretty colt and think he is too handsome to geld and then they buy a few mares to put with him. All goes well until they day they learn that there's no market for their foals and end up overrun and broke. They end up not being able to afford to get their colt foals gelded and so leave them running with their mothers and sisters, and wonder why they've got twice as many foals the following year. They can't sell them so they end up abandoned, going to auction or go direct to the meatman. Its a sad state of affairs but will continue until Defra does something about it.

 

[Potato!]

So maybe shooting them is better as by the time the passport and microchip has been paid for and the cost of having them gelded they are running at a loss. It is a business at the end of the day and if they cant make money they will not keep all mares and stallions. Im sorry but they cannot afford to keep barren mares in the same way as not being able to afford to keep barren cows or sheep

I agree that it is a sad state of affairs but then that’s life. Just like a lot of Dairy Bull Calves they are shot at birth because they are worth nothing. And Please don’t tell me that the Farmers are heartless as I have seen their reaction when many of them are shot on the farm.

 

[Mare Stare]

I think the passport scheme is all wrong too. You are basically paying for a piece of paper that lets the meat industry know that your horse can by slaughtered for it's meat. Microchipping is too so that they know that they have got the right animal. It's all to protect their industry and bugger all to do with horse welfare or insurance. Maybe the meat industry should subsidise it. Would be one less expense to horse owners.

Actually, I've never actually realised this before - but the whole system is geared towards the meat industry. Maybe that's why Defra won't get involved in any compulsory castrating schemes. Hmmm. Conspiracy theory time. lol.

If they start serving horse burgers in McDonalds you will know that I'm right!

 

[Pippamoo]

I am not clear whether we need more ponies grazing the moor (referring to something Burness said) or fewer ponies! What do people think?

QUOTE]


I did not say that we needed more ponies on the moor I was simply stating that there are a lot less ponies on the moor now than there used to be also by taking the cattle off the moor in the winter is contributing to grass growing up so much it becomes inedible.

The reason the cattle are not allowed on the moor according to natural England and the national park – it makes a mess!!

Interesting. So is the over grazing not quite an accurate description? Or do the ponies and cattle graze in a different way? Sounds like the national park agenda may differ from those of the farmers...is that true to say? I shall do some more research.....

Cow poo police - how awful! A walk's not a walk without a good stomp through mess....