Can you turn a hot horse into a calm one?

[tristar]

anything thats too hot gets less food, max turnout, polework sessions to give opportunity to express bucking tendencies without rider on board, before ridden work its lunged before riding, and when mounted its walked positively round the yard in circles and changes of direction, then onto the surface and straight into shoulder in twisting turning bending in walk and soon a brain is in same gear as me i move forward into a trot warm up.

i dont give anything time to think about sissing around i get on and go, so i can use all that lovely energy in a positive way and not let it become naughty habits,


i would never sit there letting the horse decide whos in charge, i make it quite clear what i want, then when its settled i back right off and allow the horse to show me what its its good at on the day and become the 80 20 per cent i want in a relationship with the horse, 80 the horse effort 20 me sitting there enjoying it

 

[Ambers Echo]

Ok more thoughts on this.... I read that Peter de Cosemo article that I thought was on this thread but can't find again now and loved it. For anyone that did not see it - advice is to ride into arena, halt, smoke a cigar and read the paper till horse is basically asleep then put horse away. Repeat daily for 2 weeks. Hey presto - horse that can chill out even with a rider on. It got me thinking that even the hottest horse is chilled and relaxed most of the time - grazing, snoozing, mooching about. Why are they not like that as soon as a rider gets on. It seems likely that it is either tension/anxiety or expectation/learned behaviour or both. And that technique would address both. Whereas immediately directing the energy and getting cracking reinforces the expectation that ridden work must be productive and active. So yesterday we did something similar to that with Deedee. 5 minutes ground work till she was totally chilled. Then 5 minutes stood at the mounting block till she was totally chilled. Then 5 minutes sat on stationary till she was totally chilled, then a 15 minutes amble round he arena in the buckle till her head was below the withers. Then put away. There was a lot of sighing and blowing by the end so I think she has been carrying a lot of tension. Wondered if anyone else has actually put that Peter de Cosemo advice into practice and with what outcomes?

 

[JFTDWS]

Haha - to slow Jenny down you just need to drop the reins. Just drop them onto her neck and she goes 'oh is work over for now' and comes back to walk. Pick them up again and she's like 'yippee where are we going' and she's off again. God I love that pony x.

That's what Carrot's like too - if you let the reins hang on her neck she plods. If you pick them up in both hands, she seeks a contact and wakes up. If you pick them up in a left handed bridge halfway up her neck, the head comes up and bouncy pony mode is established


I haven't seen the de Cosemo article, but I have seen the cigar method before. It's largely what I do when I'm backing and working horses in their very early days, and at any point where I feel they're becoming unnecessarily stressed about life.

Except the cigar. That's a bit unnecessary.

 

[milliepops]

a vaguely related thing which is so obvious but easy to forget, is that the nature of horses means they are easily startled/stressed by things but that they can get over that stress quite fast. e.g. a horse in the field might startle over something flapping in the wind, but it quickly figures out that it's not actually something dangerous. This being important in the wild, otherwise they would spend more time running away than eating, and starve to death. they easily become on high alert, but equally settle back to an equilibrium fairly readily.

My trainer mentioned this a while back and it helped me to think about it when I am training my loopy ones. Of course they do sometimes seem to milk a situation sometimes too

 

[DirectorFury]

I'd love to read that article if you do manage to unearth it AE. I've been having nightmares with M (to the point where I've barely ridden for 2 months because I cba to deal it) and I wonder if that technique might solve our problems.

 

[milliepops]

was it this one? https://peterdecosemo.wordpress.com...lse-false-microsoftinternetexplorer4-style-4/

 

[Lammy]

Ok more thoughts on this.... I read that Peter de Cosemo article that I thought was on this thread but can't find again now and loved it. For anyone that did not see it - advice is to ride into arena, halt, smoke a cigar and read the paper till horse is basically asleep then put horse away. Repeat daily for 2 weeks. Hey presto - horse that can chill out even with a rider on. It got me thinking that even the hottest horse is chilled and relaxed most of the time - grazing, snoozing, mooching about. Why are they not like that as soon as a rider gets on. It seems likely that it is either tension/anxiety or expectation/learned behaviour or both. And that technique would address both. Whereas immediately directing the energy and getting cracking reinforces the expectation that ridden work must be productive and active. So yesterday we did something similar to that with Deedee. 5 minutes ground work till she was totally chilled. Then 5 minutes stood at the mounting block till she was totally chilled. Then 5 minutes sat on stationary till she was totally chilled, then a 15 minutes amble round he arena in the buckle till her head was below the withers. Then put away. There was a lot of sighing and blowing by the end so I think she has been carrying a lot of tension. Wondered if anyone else has actually put that Peter de Cosemo advice into practice and with what outcomes?

I’m really going to try and put this into practice with my lad as reading this makes me think it will help him. When people watch him they think he is a very ‘hot’ type and while he is sensitive, he is actually, very, very anxious. And as someone said up thread it’s his brain that is hot, not his body.

He gets very anxious when schooling alone and can be a very difficult ride that energy then goes into throwing shapes and generally being very fizzy. We moved yards in October and while at the last yard he would be chilled on the yard on his own or the field or in the school, here he is a completely different animal. We’ve now conquered the fear of being alone on the yard and in the field but have been struggling with the school.

I can get on and get him calm and working within about 15 minutes and while it’s a big improvement from where we were, I’d like to start off with a chilled out horse. The above sounds like a good approach for that.
I will try it this afternoon and see what results I get as that is a really interesting method AA and will be interested to see how DeeDee gets on too.

 

[Ambers Echo]

was it this one? https://peterdecosemo.wordpress.com...lse-false-microsoftinternetexplorer4-style-4/

Yes that's the one. I'm definitely doing this with both Deedee and Amber. I'll report back!

 

[maya2008]

Anxious horses need a stronger bond with their human, in trust not affection terms, and for that human to prove themselves a worthy leader who will keep them safe. That is what you build out hacking solo, but also going to new places etc where your horse has no one else to trust but you. The more you are calm, keep them safe and help them cope, the more they will trust you, and the less worried they will be. Mine will hide behind me at first when they are young, but soon learn to chill ‘cos Mum always keeps them safe. My dearly departed NF was terrified of traffic all her life because she had seen another pony killed. I could hack her out on the roads though, because so long as I was there, she felt safe. Put anyone else on her, different story!

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I’ve tried the waiting it out technique on Topaz but it wasn’t very successful for her, as she just became more anxious and had more time to look for more dangers. Now maybe I didn’t try for long enough? She can be a bit like it in the field/ stable too, will stand and stare at distant noises/sights.

I’ve tried it a little with Skylla, who isn’t stressy like Topaz but very buzzy and wants to go 100 miles an hour all the time. She will stand and be super patient but still want to march on as soon as you say go ??‍.

I think it might be me, but I’d love to be able to have Skylla more relaxed and able to amble round, and Topaz not try to sideswipe me into a jump wing because ‘there was a noise’ ??.

 

[ihatework]

Ok more thoughts on this.... I read that Peter de Cosemo article that I thought was on this thread but can't find again now and loved it. For anyone that did not see it - advice is to ride into arena, halt, smoke a cigar and read the paper till horse is basically asleep then put horse away. Repeat daily for 2 weeks. Hey presto - horse that can chill out even with a rider on. It got me thinking that even the hottest horse is chilled and relaxed most of the time - grazing, snoozing, mooching about. Why are they not like that as soon as a rider gets on. It seems likely that it is either tension/anxiety or expectation/learned behaviour or both. And that technique would address both. Whereas immediately directing the energy and getting cracking reinforces the expectation that ridden work must be productive and active. So yesterday we did something similar to that with Deedee. 5 minutes ground work till she was totally chilled. Then 5 minutes stood at the mounting block till she was totally chilled. Then 5 minutes sat on stationary till she was totally chilled, then a 15 minutes amble round he arena in the buckle till her head was below the withers. Then put away. There was a lot of sighing and blowing by the end so I think she has been carrying a lot of tension. Wondered if anyone else has actually put that Peter de Cosemo advice into practice and with what outcomes?

This isn’t a new concept surely?

When I got giant horse newly backed he ‘needed to do something’ once you first got on.

I spent quite a lot of time getting on in the car park and then spending time in reverse/half rear/pawing simply teaching him to stand still and relax. These are huge holes in many horses education. (Disclaimer: no cars were dented in this training process). From there we put it in to practice out hacking. Where safe to do so I’d just stop and he could only continue said hack once he had stopped titting around. Only ended backwards in a ditch once ?

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

This isn’t a new concept surely?

No, I don't think it is - its something I've used for yrs when backing and re-schooling from the late 70's, having learned from my mother before that

 

[daffy44]

As far as I am aware, no its not a new concept at all.

 

[redapple]

I had one that needed to go straight into a trot/canter once you were on or otherwise if you tried to keep her in walk it used to blow her mind! Eventually she didn't need to but it probably took a year to get a relaxed start. It took me a while to stop worrying about her pulling something but she never did.

This has been a really interesting thread to follow with lots of interesting (and familiar) stories! I've definitely never changed a horses default nature (whether that be hot or steady) but like others, you can learn to harness it in a way that's more useful. In a similar way, I ride a horse whose default is to rear, if she feels even slightly over faced she'll just hop right up. Now she's gone from rearing every ride to maybe every 6 months. A lot of people on the yard have said how nice it must be to have fixed that issue but like I don't think you can change a horses nature I don't think that rearing will ever not be her #1 choice of vice, to me she's a rearer that isn't currently rearing. In a similar way I think you can have a hot horse who is still hot but isn't currently showing those attributes. They are still hot, just not right now.

 

[milliepops]

to me she's a rearer that isn't currently rearing. In a similar way I think you can have a hot horse who is still hot but isn't currently showing those attributes. They are still hot, just not right now.

I think I'd agree with this.
One of mine gets terribly hormonal, her go-to with most things she doesn't like is to rear and though I can usually head it off, we are in a rearing phase at the moment because she needs some regumate to stay on an even keel for the next month or so (vet coming thursday - bring it on!!) When she's not challenged by her own body or by me asking her to do something she objects to, you would never know she did it. At the moment we have 4 or 5 in a session without fail. she's the same this time every year.

 

[daffy44]

Redapple, I'd totally agree. You dont change the horses fundamental nature, you learn to manage/channel/control it etc, but you dont change it, likewise whatever a horses go to behaviour under stress is, it will always be there, you will hopefully learn to manage it, but it will always be there and will reappear under enough stress. As you say, a rearer will default to rearing under enough stress, even if they havent reared for two years, it will still be what they do when they feel too much pressure or stress.

 

[J&S]

I do think that we sometimes do everything too fast. When you fit a horse/s into a working life, children and partners, time is of an essence. I realised with my hot chestnut mare that taking everything slowly, from just walking in from the field, grooming (especially) & tacking up created a better atmosphere and helped her to relax. TBH, this is why I prefer to ride on my own, some people are in far too much of a hurry to get the "riding" thing for the day done! Rush through your yard jobs, but keep nice and steady when handling the horse.

 

[maya2008]

The waiting it out thing... I was thinking about that today, whilst schooling in driving rain on two youngsters that aren’t 100% comfortable with being on their own with nothing else in sight. Both started off behind my leg, looking for something to spook at. If I had sat there then walked around on a loose rein, things would not have been pretty - one was calling to her mates and would not stand still once mounted, and the other really really really wanted to have a fit at the blowing plastic bag on the neighbour’s property. I got them moving and thinking and they chilled out.

But then again their behaviour didn’t bother me, I was just as calm when madam was screaming for her friends as when she was working nicely later on. I tend to make horses quiet/chilled because I can’t be bothered to get het up about their behaviour. Some people make any horse hot, or chilled just because of how they react and how much tension they carry naturally...


Also, the waiting it out thing - what when you wanted to go back to jumping and cantering? Then it becomes exciting again.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Also, the waiting it out thing - what when you wanted to go back to jumping and cantering? Then it becomes exciting again.

I am not sure about that either. I spent ages with Amber at halt/walk. Just as a basic manners thing as when I bought her she had none! Then also because we went to a few clinics which involved hours of standing around and walk work. She is good now at standing for mounting and I can scramble on to her from anywhere - walls, fences, jumps etc. And she stands politely for girth and stirrup changes. But as soon as we go somewhere exciting or we canter/jump then standing still becomes a huge challenge again.

I've always struggled with Buck Brannaman describes as 'dial her up and dial her back down' . Dialing her up isnt a problem!

All these techniques make things seem so simple but I never find things like this generalise that much. Standing in halt made my horse good at standing in halt. Groundwork makes my horse good at groundwork but it does not seem to make her generally calm or generally 'respectful'.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I am not sure about that either. I spent ages with Amber at halt/walk. Just as a basic manners thing as when I bought her she had none! Then also because we went to a few clinics which involved hours of standing around and walk work. She is good now at standing for mounting and I can scramble on to her from anywhere - walls, fences, jumps etc. And she stands politely for girth and stirrup changes. But as soon as we go somewhere exciting or we canter/jump then standing still becomes a huge challenge again.

I've always struggled with Buck Brannaman describes as 'dial her up and dial her back down' . Dialing her up isnt a problem!

All these techniques make things seem so simple but I never find things like this generalise that much. Standing in halt made my horse good at standing in halt. Groundwork makes my horse good at groundwork but it does not seem to make her generally calm or generally 'respectful'.

^ This is exactly what I've found...

More so in Skylla than Topaz, but Topaz generally just needs her hand holding whereas Skylla I think is more like Amber and just wants to do everything at a run. Skylla is now amazing at standing, letting me get one anywhere too, but the moment we set off again she wants to go go go...

 

[ycbm]

I've written this before on other threads but worth repeating here I hope. When riding young or anxious horses I have constantly been told by trainers to get a contact to 'hold their hand' and reassure them. I've personally usually found it more effective to release the reins and let them gawp at things for a minute or three. It says 'I'm not worried, why should you be?' to the horse, it stops the horse bottling up and exploding, and it prevents any nerves on the rider's part from transmitting directly down the rein.

Like others, though, the horse doesn't walk away from the block until I say so.

.

 

[milliepops]

I think it depends on the horse whether it's helpful to actually look or not, and that can change throughout their education.
One of mine really benefits from standing and looking, the other gets worse and you can feel the heart thumping away and suddenly you're launching at speed I expect that will start to change but for now doing too much looking is a bit counterproductive.

The cigar thing probably can work wonders for some horses but like all techniques I don't think there's a one size fits all solution, and it will be useful for some and not others.

 

[JFTDWS]

I think, as with all things, and to an extent echoing MP above, that it's an element of tact - knowing when to ride the horse forward and give it a job, and when to stop and let them process the situation. Sometimes standing, walking around on a long rein is the right thing to do. Sometimes the right thing is to send them on and get them focused. Sometimes there's probably a third option (or 300 alternatives, via medias or out of the box solutions). Deciding when to do what depends on the horse, the circumstances and what sort of horse you want at the end - the training of a horse intended for a novice or an RS should probably be approached rather differently than one for the Olympics.

I'm a big fan of giving a horse time first. If it can't relax enough to use the time to work it out, I'll give it a job and a distraction, but for me, the opportunity to process and relax in the face of a new or scary situation comes first.

 

[milliepops]

I'm a big fan of giving a horse time first. If it can't relax enough to use the time to work it out, I'll give it a job and a distraction, but for me, the opportunity to process and relax in the face of a new or scary situation comes first.

there's something else there about the horse actually thinking about the situation rather than just gazing about
how many times do you see someone with a horse standing at the bottom of a horsebox ramp for instance, feet rooted to the spot and the horse totally disengaged from the situation, clearly thinking about something else?

Kira does a great impression of a horse looking at/thinking about something, until you look closely and then you see she's actually not concentrating on the thing she made a fuss about *at all*. In the beginning I had to keep refocussing her to get her to deal with a scary thing, because she'd make a big song and dance about something and then drift away in her brain we learned to go and noseboop scary objects because then she had to stay thinking about the actual thing.

 

[oldie48]

Love these posts, so interesting! Can someone please explain how standing doing nothing helps to calm a horse. I think I could do this with Rose (backwards thinking but can be reactive) or previous horse (forward thinking but actually less reactive) and they would have been very happy to stand there all day. Two horses with very different personalities but both were much easier to manage in difficult situations if given a job to do. EG Hacking out today we met a huge lorry, if I'd given Rose the opportunity to process the situation I'm pretty sure we would have ended up under a car but leg on, into an outline and shoulder in, we survived. If it's a less urgent situation, I'm happy for her to look at something but then she's back on the aids, am I a bit of a control freak? Probably!

 

[Roxylola]

I see it as a life skill to teach them. I don't think you will change their basic nature as mentioned previously, but you can teach even a hot horse that it is not appropriate to just charge off the minute weight hits the saddle. I guess for me it's another tool for the box and to use when appropriate. I would think it's a good way to start a young horse generally

 

[oldie48]

I see it as a life skill to teach them. I don't think you will change their basic nature as mentioned previously, but you can teach even a hot horse that it is not appropriate to just charge off the minute weight hits the saddle. I guess for me it's another tool for the box and to use when appropriate. I would think it's a good way to start a young horse generally

But a horse that moves off as soon as you get on, isn't necessarily hot, it just lacks manners, just like one that pulls like a train. Surely it's just basic training?

 

[milliepops]

I'd agree, buuuuuut... personally I find the basic manners type training (stand at the block and wait) a lot easier than the ridden training (don't pee off you distracta-maniac just because you're excited/there's a bird/it's a Tuesday etc) it's *all* basic training really, just some tasks are easier to parcel off and achieve than other bits I think?

 

[oldie48]

Tota

I'd agree, buuuuuut... personally I find the basic manners type training (stand at the block and wait) a lot easier than the ridden training (don't pee off you distracta-maniac just because you're excited/there's a bird/it's a Tuesday etc) it's *all* basic training really, just some tasks are easier to parcel off and achieve than other bits I think?

Totally agree but what I'm trying to understand is how making a horse stand still for a long time makes it calmer when it does have to cope with something, that's where I'm struggling.

 

[Roxylola]

Yes, I'd agree. But I also think that just teaching them to stand and wait and that we don't always have to be doing something is a life skill and a useful one to have - same with a dog that never gets taught to settle and just has to be exercised to exhaustion, they aren't much fun to live with.