CDJ Eliminated??

milliepops said:
I understand where you're coming from but I think your argument is misplaced in a discussion about competitive dressage.
For dressage to make a competition where multiple competitors can be judged and scored against a set of criteria and ranked, what you are suggesting would be pretty impossible to achieve.
It's a defined sport, you need to make a new one. If you want to see it at the europeans or olympics then there's some way to go before we can move away from this discussion.
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but do not you think all sports have the possibility to evolve somewhat, especially if it involves animals and their welfare for example? or evolution in test formats, modification of judging criterea?
 
tristar said:
but do not you think all sports have the possibility to evolve somewhat, especially if it involves animals and their welfare for example? or evolution in test formats, modification of judging criterea?
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I think all of our sports can and do change for animal welfare reasons as well as other reasons.
Of the olympic ones some big changes that have happened might be the shorter GP test that was trialed recently, reducing long format eventing is another. These have an effect on the horses and the nature of the sport.

tristar said:
if tests were adapted to accommodate differing response times and the emphasis was on collection, could it be spurs would not be used and we would not need to waste half the day worrying about blood on horses sides
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I don't really see how you could actually achieve this ^^ and keep competitive dressage as we would recognise it as a sport.
If the tests had differing times, how would that work? How would you allow my slow responding welsh extra thinking time compared to MSJ freestyle :p would a slower response that eventually reached the same quality of work be worth the same as a faster response? is eventual quality more important than speed of response?

Logistically, how would the tests be scheduled? would they be running early or late as a matter of course? how would people work in?
How would spectators understand the rules or criteria? for the sustainability of top level sports now, spectator buy-in is essential to guarantee the interest levels required for funding, sad but true.

Putting the emphasis on collection might actually *not* do a lot for horse welfare. the GP test has a great test of collection already but the need to also show extension means people must train with variety and the top combinations have to do both well.

Can you give some scenarios or examples of how you think it could work? at the moment I just have more questions.
 
not packing in so many sudden changes of difficult movements.

how its evolves or modifies is for FEI to discover.

its for you competitors to take your own sport forwards and develop it, you are asking me when i am asking you,! how do you see it changing if at all.?
 
GP as the pinnacle of international dressage competition should be difficult.
I don't want to see medals won on the strength of tests with an elementary level intensity, that makes a mockery of the whole thing, especially with the exceptional horse power that is being produced these days. Modern WBs come out of the womb engaged and on the bit, it's not like the old TBs stiffly lumbering around above the contact and not over the back.
I want to see the sport evolve , of course I do, but in ways that make it more accessible to people from the grass roots up, more interesting to watch, more transparent, with a strong eye on horse welfare which I think the blood rule supports.

Forgive me I think it's a cop out to say things should change but then not put forward any suggestions in ways you think it could be improved.
 
Leaving more time for horses to respond to movements? What a great idea. Sounds like my schooling sessions.

Me: Canter.
Horse: I will once I have a cup of tea.
Me: Now would be nice.
Horse: And read the Guardian.
Me: Okay.
Horse: That canter aid sucked. I'm going to check Facebook.
Me: Yeah, it did. I'm sorry. I'll ask again.
Horse: Fine. Here's a canter, but you didn't deserve it.
Me: I know. I'm sorry. You're a good horse.

Why we haven't gotten to FEI levels, I don't know.
 
Caol Ila said:
Leaving more time for horses to respond to movements? What a great idea. Sounds like my schooling sessions.

Me: Canter.
Horse: I will once I have a cup of tea.
Me: Now would be nice.
Horse: And read the Guardian.
Me: Okay.
Horse: That canter aid sucked. I'm going to check Facebook.
Me: Yeah, it did. I'm sorry. I'll ask again.
Horse: Fine. Here's a canter, but you didn't deserve it.
Me: I know. I'm sorry. You're a good horse.

Why we haven't gotten to FEI levels, I don't know.
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This is exactly how mine goes as well! Yours at least formulates full sentence responses. Mine goes "meh" and shrugs.
 
if you are part of the scene its up to you and the governing bodies to to decide and change and evolve, i see you have not made any suggestions how things may change in the future, you asked me the question, but have no answers yourself.

i think grass roots level is on my mind, and it needs to be more interesting to watch, many people do not enjoy watching so they tell me, i was really surprised.

` gp should be difficult`, i find that hard to swallow, we want to see horses with joie de vivre more fluid, more beautiful in expression showing off the trained horse enjoying his work, thats not a cop out, its a vision

my novice friend is a suoerb judge of horse and rider, i always ask his unbiased eye for an opinion, as in what did you think of that then? and get a surprisingly accurate diagnoses, imagine that learning from someone on their first horse.

`modern warmbloods come out on the engaged and on the bit and ready trained` but what about collection do they come out collected? do this mean they are ready earlier to advance than previous generations, and stiff tbs is where it becomes interesting to me because if they were stiff the grassroots training is the fault and the way riding is taught at the most basic level

there is no cop out its up to the people who run the sport to act when and where needed

differing reponse times not longer in across the board
 
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Caol Ila said:
Leaving more time for horses to respond to movements? What a great idea. Sounds like my schooling sessions.

Me: Canter.
Horse: I will once I have a cup of tea.
Me: Now would be nice.
Horse: And read the Guardian.
Me: Okay.
Horse: That canter aid sucked. I'm going to check Facebook.
Me: Yeah, it did. I'm sorry. I'll ask again.
Horse: Fine. Here's a canter, but you didn't deserve it.
Me: I know. I'm sorry. You're a good horse.

Why we haven't gotten to FEI levels, I don't know.
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err, are you using spurs ?


should`nt he be reading horse and hound, i`d try coffee, more caffeine
 
I wonder do people at high level dressage need horses that are naturally forward thinking or can they do it by training ones that aren't. I can imagine piaffe and passage and similar takes a lot of energy. Wouldn't it be easier to train it on more reactive types?
 
tristar said:
if you are part of the scene its up to you and the governing bodies to to decide and change and evolve, i see you have not made any suggestions how things may change in the future, you asked me the question, but have no answers yourself.
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why should she suggest ways to change the sport when she clearly sees no need for the sport to change, you are the one wanting change therefore it is up to you to suggest feasible/practical ways it should change.
 
mule said:
I wonder do people at high level dressage need horses that are naturally forward thinking or can they do it by training ones that aren't. I can imagine piaffe and passage and similar takes a lot of energy. Wouldn't it be easier to train it on more reactive types?
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I think many of the top horses are super hot & forward.
I can only speak of my puny efforts on a "reactive but not in a hot forward way" horse. it's sodding hard! You constantly have to teach them to behave in a way that is against their nature (as well as teaching them the exercises and giving time to develop their strength and stamina).
I genuinely don't think the spurs are used to make them more forward. something I have learned is that if I want my horse to react fast and precisely, I have to give a fast precise aid.
 
milliepops said:
I think many of the top horses are super hot & forward.
I can only speak of my puny efforts on a "reactive but not in a hot forward way" horse. it's sodding hard! You constantly have to teach them to behave in a way that is against their nature (as well as teaching them the exercises and giving time to develop their strength and stamina).
I genuinely don't think the spurs are used to make them more forward. something I have learned is that if I want my horse to react fast and precisely, I have to give a fast precise aid.
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Good tip about the fast precise aid. I've only relatively recently found that giving them the aid when the correct leg is in the air makes a massive difference. It's made a big change being able to feel where the legs are.
 
conniegirl said:
why should she suggest ways to change the sport when she clearly sees no need for the sport to change, you are the one wanting change therefore it is up to you to suggest feasible/practical ways it should change.
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^^ well, this, but I will have a go at some of the comments anyway ;)

tristar said:
if you are part of the scene its up to you and the governing bodies to to decide and change and evolve, i see you have not made any suggestions how things may change in the future, you asked me the question, but have no answers yourself.
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the sport is evolving, constantly. I am happy with it. I think other people with greater experience than me e.g. at the top international levels are coming up with interesting proposals around judging, and different tests & stuff that won't affect me directly so they are best placed to make the decisions on them.
At a national level I think that the governing body is doing interesting things in terms of pathways for different competitors and the judging I receive tells me that their judge training is developing in a good way too.
I think the general standard across the board is improving - fast - and that speaks volumes about what is happening on a day to day level.

i think grass roots level is on my mind, and it needs to be more interesting to watch, many people do not enjoy watching so they tell me, i was really surprised.
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lower level dressage is pretty boring to watch. People who aren't into dressage at all will probably never find a set test of any interest, but the freestyles are definitely attracting more of an audience. Interactive judging is one example of a development that is supposed to engage with the audience more , it seems really popular and remarkably accurate in terms of matching the actual judging ;)

` gp should be difficult`, i find that hard to swallow, we want to see horses with joie de vivre more fluid, more beautiful in expression showing off the trained horse enjoying his work, thats not a cop out, its a vision
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No one in their right mind would say GP dressage was easy.
It's almost, just about, nearly impossible!
(I'm talking about riding a test, 6 minutes of relentless effort, not riding some 1 tempis or a bit of passage)
Really talented horses and riders make it look effortless but only because of the huge effort of training and preparation. Yes I think it should be difficult, otherwise we would all be out in Toyko on our home produced dobbins vying for the gold medal.
The kudos, medals and high scores reward all the graft that has gone into accomplishing a hugely difficult task.

my novice friend is a suoerb judge of horse and rider, i always ask his unbiased eye for an opinion, as in what did you think of that then? and get a surprisingly accurate diagnoses, imagine that learning from someone on their first horse.
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I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make with this but yes I agree that some novice riders have a good natural feel for a horse, lucky them... most of us have to work hard at that for all of our lives.

`modern warmbloods come out on the engaged and on the bit and ready trained` but what about collection do they come out collected? do this mean they are ready earlier to advance than previous generations, and stiff tbs is where it becomes interesting to me because if they were stiff the grassroots training is the fault and the way riding is taught at the most basic level
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I didn't say ready trained, I said on the bit. Meaning their conformation is so good as young horses that they are set up to be athletes right from the start. Good angles, good proportions. No they don't come out collected, I don't understand why you would say that. Collection comes from training and strength. They probably are ready to advance at the lower levels earlier - because of a natural talent and good natural paces. A good natured horse that is naturally balanced and supple could get to elementary fairly easily and quickly without needing Capital-C Collection just by virtue of what it was born with.

Re "stiff TBs" I was referring to the decades-old videos of Olympics in the past, where the dressage is virtually unrecognisable from what we see today.

there is no cop out its up to the people who run the sport to act when and where needed
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I think they are acting. I am happy with what is happening in the sport - in general - I think there will always be things that need looking at but that's no different to any other sport or discipline, but you are the one who keeps saying things need to change?

differing reponse times not longer in across the board
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I'm sorry I still really haven't got a clue what you mean by this?
 
mule said:
Good tip about the fast precise aid. I've only relatively recently found that giving them the aid when the correct leg is in the air makes a massive difference. It's made a big change being able to feel where the legs are.
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I read a while back something that I think I knew intuitively but hadn't thought about before, about how there is only one moment in the walk "stride" that you can ask for a walk-canter trans and the horse can do it 100% cleanly. miss that moment and it will strike off wrong or add a step of trot. I can feel when that moment is naturally, but if I try to think about it then i will fluff it :p that kind of stuff is awkward to learn!
 
milliepops said:
I read a while back something that I think I knew intuitively but hadn't thought about before, about how there is only one moment in the walk "stride" that you can ask for a walk-canter trans and the horse can do it 100% cleanly. miss that moment and it will strike off wrong or add a step of trot. I can feel when that moment is naturally, but if I try to think about it then i will fluff it :p that kind of stuff is awkward to learn!
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I find if I shut my eyes it's much easier to feel things. I suppose that's where having a quiet horse comes in handy😉
 
milliepops said:
I read a while back something that I think I knew intuitively but hadn't thought about before, about how there is only one moment in the walk "stride" that you can ask for a walk-canter trans and the horse can do it 100% cleanly. miss that moment and it will strike off wrong or add a step of trot. I can feel when that moment is naturally, but if I try to think about it then i will fluff it :p that kind of stuff is awkward to learn!
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mule said:
I find if I shut my eyes it's much easier to feel things. I suppose that's where having a quiet horse comes in handy😉
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I had similar when I was quite young, I was bought a pony who was well above my level in terms of dressage, my beautiful and very forgiving connemara.
In one showing championship the decision was between my connie and a professionally produced connie, the Judge asked us to show an extended trot in the go round.
I was 12 yrs old at the time, had owned this pony all of about 6 weeks, I'd never been asked for anything similar in a show class (and didnt do dressage then), I had absolutely no idea how to ask for extended trot at all, so I panicked a bit and kind of went with instinct. Pony quite absolutely flew, his back end went so far under him he practically sat down and jaws literally dropped at the edge of the ring, it was breathtaking and exhilarating to sit on. We won the championship, judge couldn't keep her eyes off him but it took me a year of lessons to consciously be able to get that again. I instinctively pressed the right buttons at the right moment, but doing it again, whilst thinking about it, or at a set marker, that was too much for 12yr old me.
It was that trot that made me take him to do Dressage and he taught me so so much!
 
conniegirl said:
I had similar when I was quite young, I was bought a pony who was well above my level in terms of dressage, my beautiful and very forgiving connemara.
In one showing championship the decision was between my connie and a professionally produced connie, the Judge asked us to show an extended trot in the go round.
I was 12 yrs old at the time, had owned this pony all of about 6 weeks, I'd never been asked for anything similar in a show class (and didnt do dressage then), I had absolutely no idea how to ask for extended trot at all, so I panicked a bit and kind of went with instinct. Pony quite absolutely flew, his back end went so far under him he practically sat down and jaws literally dropped at the edge of the ring, it was breathtaking and exhilarating to sit on. We won the championship, judge couldn't keep her eyes off him but it took me a year of lessons to consciously be able to get that again. I instinctively pressed the right buttons at the right moment, but doing it again, whilst thinking about it, or at a set marker, that was too much for 12yr old me.
It was that trot that made me take him to do Dressage and he taught me so so much!
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I'm very bad for overthinking things. It's such a bad habit.
 
I've been holding off comments because I'm not a "dressage person" - the only medals mine would win are for speed eating.

I do think it is shocking that CDJ's horse came out with blood in its side even if only a drop. This isn't a new ride where you suddenly find yourself with a horse with super sensitive skin, this is a horse she's trained and ridden for a while. So unless there was some form of external fault (spur, horse usually prepared differently - don't know) then her riding caused this. She sounded mortified in her statement so I'm pretty sure it won't happen again.

I was less impressed with the 'social media is being hard on me' part of that statement. Tough! Social media gets her the lucrative sponsorship deals and allows her to live the dream she's worked so hard for. I'm sure there were vile comments, but as with anyone in the public domain she needs to learn to take the rough with the smooth.

At no point did I think we should ban spurs. They are as much a tool as a bit - both are capable of causing harm with the wrong rider.

The two horses eliminated for being lame probably annoyed me more than the CDJ incident. I know they trotted up sound but surely their riders could feel they were lame as they warmed up??? I can feel a lame horse when I'm on board and I'm a loooong way from a top level rider!!
 
SEL said:
The two horses eliminated for being lame probably annoyed me more than the CDJ incident. I know they trotted up sound but surely their riders could feel they were lame as they warmed up??? I can feel a lame horse when I'm on board and I'm a loooong way from a top level rider!!
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I do agree, but I saw a comment from one rider saying the horse had felt fine the previous movement, it is entirely possible they picked up a tweak during the test I suppose?

I think the comments around social media weren't really that woe-is-me. Some people have been truly vitriolic in their reaction to this and that is totally uncalled for IMO. It's not as though she did it deliberately. It's clear that the welfare of the horses is a top priority at their yard. It's fair to say, as you did, that it's disappointing to see or whatever, and she accepted that people will have their own views. But there's no need to lay into someone that realistically does have to live their life in the public eye. I would imagine she took those comments extra hard because of the huge disappointment and a sense of guilt/embarrassment that it had happened in the first place.
 
Caol Ila said:
Leaving more time for horses to respond to movements? What a great idea. Sounds like my schooling sessions.

Me: Canter.
Horse: I will once I have a cup of tea.
Me: Now would be nice.
Horse: And read the Guardian.
Me: Okay.
Horse: That canter aid sucked. I'm going to check Facebook.
Me: Yeah, it did. I'm sorry. I'll ask again.
Horse: Fine. Here's a canter, but you didn't deserve it.
Me: I know. I'm sorry. You're a good horse.

Why we haven't gotten to FEI levels, I don't know.
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At my bootcamp there was someone who was fortunate to be loaned a horse that had competed at GP with very good scores. She's an experienced rider but in a different discipline and it was just so interesting to see how sensitive the horse was to her aids, he gave her what she asked for, which wasn't always what she thought she was asking for. There's no doubt in my mind that he had lots of buttons and without spurs it would have been very difficult to ensure you gave the aid in the right place.
 
I’ve only read the later parts of this thread but the social media thing bugs me. I don’t see why being in the public eye means you have to put up with vitriol and online bullying

Not sure if that’s what you meant in your post SEL but there’s no justification for that type of behaviour in any form. I recognise that it does happen but that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable or people should put up and shut up. It’s wrong and should always be called out as wrong.
 
Quite the drama...

Glad to see CDJ respond like that, accepting judgement and clearly mortified about what happened. You can bet that won’t ever be happening again... I feel sure it was entirely accidental, but agree that rules are rules, and they should be tough and enforced no matter who it is. Perhaps the rowel mechanism got caught and jabbed rather than rolled. Blood is unacceptable, so I’m sure they will be looking into every possibility to make sure it never happens again. Gutting for the rest of the team and all the owners, connections etc. But rules are rules.

Comments about banning spurs are poorly informed IMO...

Spurs are there to refine, not to create forwardness. I use a small set of blunt spurs on my pony when ‘properly’ schooling, so I can give more precise and clear aids. Anyone who has ever asked for travers and got canter can understand the need for clarity! If the horse isn’t off your leg to a reasonable degree, then spurs shouldn’t be used.

FWIW the only time my pony has had marks on his sides, was from my boots, without any spurs... no blood but rub marks just from where the boots were sitting below the saddle, not even the heels! I ended up slathering the areas in cream before every ride... he was fully clipped and needs sheepskin on everything or it rubs.
 
Bernster said:
I’ve only read the later parts of this thread but the social media thing bugs me. I don’t see why being in the public eye means you have to put up with vitriol and online bullying

Not sure if that’s what you meant in your post SEL but there’s no justification for that type of behaviour in any form. I recognise that it does happen but that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable or people should put up and shut up. It’s wrong and should always be called out as wrong.
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I agree it should be called out as wrong - & the more it's called out the better IMO. Saying that I do think in today's world it comes with the job (& I'm not saying that's right). There's nasty stuff written all the time about people in the public eye and if you do something that is perceived as wrong then they will be out for blood.

I suspect this is the first time CDJ has been involved in anything that could be perceived as "wrong" and it's opened an opportunity up to the keyboard bullies. Her statement did come across as "woe is me" when I read it and my instant thought was "man up, you're going to need to now" - it sometimes seems a very British thing to want to knock people off pedestals we've put them on.
 
thanks milliepops for your response, and the time taken, i have not time at the mo to type much, due to baby horse who is 20 mi;es away needing some work, [not possible recently due to rain and no surface over there]
 
Bernster said:
I’ve only read the later parts of this thread but the social media thing bugs me. I don’t see why being in the public eye means you have to put up with vitriol and online bullying

Not sure if that’s what you meant in your post SEL but there’s no justification for that type of behaviour in any form. I recognise that it does happen but that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable or people should put up and shut up. It’s wrong and should always be called out as wrong.
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not just on social media, i have been called things on here that are pretty shocking, for having an opinion which differs, ,[ yet have drawn no blood!] if we all thought the same there might not be a forum, perhaps one of the reasons its so quiet on here?

i am sure you think i am totally wrong too, but happily accept your right to disagree, in advance, but no need to express it with vitriol
 
I've always been very proud of Charlotte and what she's done for our national pride and the sport of dressage. But it's an ill wind that blows no good and in an odd way this may help to relieve the pressure on her, even though they're qualified for Tokyo the pressure on her must be something else. Referring to Freestyle as 'Mrs Valegro' can't help IMO.
I think the blood rule is unsafe. Lameness is one thing but even a dodgy piece of hay can affect blood clotting factors. Even with all the blood tests and nutritionists horses have to be left to themselves sometimes.
I really look forward to watching Carl ride. I once thought he should have got a medal just for piloting Barney to the arena, but then he strikes me as a 'standing up in a hammock' type of guy and definitely someone to have in your corner!
With Carl's help, Charlotte will come back from all this.
 
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For being so hardy in most ways, my fine ISH is a such a rubby horse.

Spurs? Yes I've rubbed her a few times. Try not to wear them now.
Boots? Yes shes gone to pink skin on her side during coat change time from my boots / sweat.
Reins? Yup - had a rein line up her neck at the start of the year.
Noseband? She got a sweaty face out on a ride in July and her padded noseband rubbed a cracker under her chin.
Bits? Rub if not eggbut / straight bar.
Rugs ? She can't wear a neck cover at any time of year - just a nylon batman mask. Shoulders always rub at coat change time on any fit of rug.

Girth is the only place that's been well and truly safe!

I don't mean to rub her, if I can avoid it I will (padding, leaving areas with hair on, leaving her neck naked etc.) but when it does happen, I don't beat myself up about it. Its certainly not a severe injury she's going to lose sleep over or resent me for. She does much worse to herself in the field!
 
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