CDJ withdrawn from paris

PurpleSpots said:
If CDJ had done, said or written anything to suggest she felt true remorse and could see how she had gone down a very wrong path I would be the first to support her new way of doing things and accept that she was misguided in her earlier actions because of the influence of others in the industry, how judging inadvertently rewarded how she had been doing things, and because I accept we are all human and can get it so very wrong sometimes. Especially when others praise ways that shouldn't be praised.

But I've seen no evidence of any of that, just a statement which was clearly incorrect in places as it was clearly not a one-off thing, a year away from competitions and back to it. I would like to see her recent tests though, as there is a little glimmer of hope that perhaps the results she is getting and aiming for now are softer. But in all honesty that is more wishing to give the benefit of the doubt rather than actual hope.

On the other hand, Olivia Towers for example has been quite open about realising she was on a path she didn't like with her horses, and has also been open about what she has done to basically have a complete overhaul of how she works with her horses. I have only admiration for that, and she offers good influence in my opinion. If anyone kept dragging up how she used to do things then in that instance it would be completely wrong, and I would support posts which called out any unpleasantness towards her for the past.

But I cannot (yet) support posts which blindly insist that people should 'Be kind' just for the sake of it. Nobody's being unpleasant for the sake of it, nor inciting others to be horrid to CDJ, but we are expressing our regret that after the IMMENSE shockwaves it sent through our community at the time, the potential for change looks to have been lost, and that makes it so much harder to hope there will be significant improvement to the lives of all top level dressage horses any time soon. And we have every right to express our concern for the wellbeing of horses - louder and harder as long as nothing is changing.
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Couldn’t agree with this more tbh
 
rextherobber said:
Back in the 70's, I used to go to a big, busy riding school,with liveries, horses coming and going all the time. The Anglo Arab stallion was kept, when stabled, in a box right on the main yard. They treated him exactly like any other horse, and that's how he behaved. He sometimes led the hacks.
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IMO, keeping all horses busy, active and involved is much better for their health, temperaments and ease of handling. And for their enjoyment - nothing worse than bored horses. All our stallions have been used to ride and drive in mixed company, one now is always led about on an ordinary leather headcollar
But if a strange horse came onto the yard, I would put the rope round his nose, or use a controller halter, and if that strange horse was an in season mare for service, he’d be wearing his covering bridle with chain - nicely mannered he may be with the ladies.
unrealistic - and supremely arrogant - to assume that some insignificant human’s R+ philosophy will take precedence above the overriding desire to ‘get his leg over’!
 
Exasperated said:
unrealistic - and supremely arrogant - to assume that some insignificant human’s R+ philosophy will take precedence above the overriding desire to ‘get his leg over’!
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I know you just want to be snippy with this but people have been using R+ to train polar bears, big cats, killer whales etc for many years. If you can train a bear or a jaguar not to take your hand off, you can probably train a randy horse to wait a minute (if you know what you're doing). Also unrealistic to think if a horse really wanted to go he wouldn't just go through a chain too 🤷‍♀️
 
smolmaus said:
I know you just want to be snippy with this but people have been using R+ to train polar bears, big cats, killer whales etc for many years. If you can train a bear or a jaguar not to take your hand off, you can probably train a randy horse to wait a minute (if you know what you're doing). Also unrealistic to think if a horse really wanted to go he wouldn't just go through a chain too 🤷‍♀️
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No, it’s really not going to bother me sufficiently, will fully defer to your experience of safely handling big game and training large predators, whatever, I’ll concentrate on keeping my own safe. Jaguar are among most independent and dangerous cats, seen them operating, and certainly rather you than me.
But - misunderstood - when bridle and chain are on, the horse knows the behaviour expected, there isn’t any ‘argument’. And that’s that.
 
On balance I think Charlotte should be given a second chance especially as Helgstrand is back and I think he has and does far worse than Charlotte has ever even thought of doing.What troubles me is that most of us know that what passes for top level dressage is often ugly and abusive.I don't see that changing frankly and I am sorry for that.
 
scats said:
I’m fully aware of that. But do you genuinely believe everybody uses a whip that way?

I find it interesting how people are more forgiving over things like whip use because it’s a horse. If someone had been videoed whipping a dog like that, nobody would be saying “be kind” when that person was first seen back out with a dog.
Horses are fair game though it seems.
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I agree. If a teacher slapped a child multiple times and was merely suspended for a year "because everyone deserves a second chance", there'd be an uproar. Surely the general consensus would be that they never be allowed near a classroom again?! Yet, because it's a horse we are supposed to accept that CJD has realised the error of her ways and doesn't think like that anymore. She'll be more careful who's watching her, but that's about it.
 
Exasperated said:
But - misunderstood - when bridle and chain are on, the horse knows the behaviour expected, there isn’t any ‘argument’. And that’s that.
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That's what I mean tho, it isn't the chain, it's the training. And you can train in different ways.

A chain isn't magic and neither is a food-reinforcer, but what you can do with one you can probably also do with the other.
 
I would also seriously question the ethics of the person who took the video while watching it all happen. What happened to them? Nothing as they have tried to remain anonymous. Would you stand back and allow someone to do that to your horse or indeed any horse in your presence? I know I would not. I have had occasion to remove a pro from a horse and very publicly tell them what I thought of their behaviour. I did not video it. I did not sell it to the press but they were made very aware of my thoughts. In my opinion, that person is just as culpable as Charlotte and they have yet to be named.
 
meleeka said:
I agree. If a teacher slapped a child multiple times and was merely suspended for a year "because everyone deserves a second chance", there'd be an uproar. Surely the general consensus would be that they never be allowed near a classroom again?! Yet, because it's a horse we are supposed to accept that CJD has realised the error of her ways and doesn't think like that anymore. She'll be more careful who's watching her, but that's about it.
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Yep. It’s another example of why the world is endlessly confusing to me.
Some things we have to forgive under the “be kind” banner, but some things we don’t.
 
sport horse said:
I would also seriously question the ethics of the person who took the video while watching it all happen. What happened to them? Nothing as they have tried to remain anonymous. Would you stand back and allow someone to do that to your horse or indeed any horse in your presence? I know I would not. I have had occasion to remove a pro from a horse and very publicly tell them what I thought of their behaviour. I did not video it. I did not sell it to the press but they were made very aware of my thoughts. In my opinion, that person is just as culpable as Charlotte and they have yet to be named.
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Just as culpable? I don't think so. I certainly wouldn't accept someone treating my horse like that either but if we want people to continue to step up and report behaviour like this we can't then take the proverbial whip to the whistleblowers.

If there were ulterior motives in the reporting then that is what it is separate from CDJ's behaviour. People who are directly connected to that person will know who they are and can make their own judgements.
 
I don’t think CDJ could ever show enough remorse to satisfy some people. It has quite rightly been castigated as reprehensible behaviour that shamed dressage and tainted horse sport in general. However, 114 pages later and still going? I’m of an age to remember Polly Phillips and how public opinion has influence. At the moment, the methods and riding approach from CDJ wins classes/championships, so that isn’t likely to change any time soon. Rather than targeting an individual endlessly, it’s an opportunity to disagree and challenge the system in general, why tense stressed horses are marked highly for ‘big’ movements with no lightness or elegance. It’s sometimes like watching body builders have a crack at Swan Lake. All expertly said from the comfort of my virtual armchair 😜
 
paisley said:
I don’t think CDJ could ever show enough remorse to satisfy some people. It has quite rightly been castigated as reprehensible behaviour that shamed dressage and tainted horse sport in general. However, 114 pages later and still going? I’m of an age to remember Polly Phillips and how public opinion has influence. At the moment, the methods and riding approach from CDJ wins classes/championships, so that isn’t likely to change any time soon. Rather than targeting an individual endlessly, it’s an opportunity to disagree and challenge the system in general, why tense stressed horses are marked highly for ‘big’ movements with no lightness or elegance. It’s sometimes like watching body builders have a crack at Swan Lake. All expertly said from the comfort of my virtual armchair 😜
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I think it is slowly getting better regarding the judging and the few people who are riding in a softer way are now getting better marks… I think the way forward is to get the judging right so the overbent, tense, flashy movers don’t get excessively high marks . We can hope
 
paisley said:
I don’t think CDJ could ever show enough remorse to satisfy some people. It has quite rightly been castigated as reprehensible behaviour that shamed dressage and tainted horse sport in general. However, 114 pages later and still going? I’m of an age to remember Polly Phillips and how public opinion has influence. At the moment, the methods and riding approach from CDJ wins classes/championships, so that isn’t likely to change any time soon. Rather than targeting an individual endlessly, it’s an opportunity to disagree and challenge the system in general, why tense stressed horses are marked highly for ‘big’ movements with no lightness or elegance. It’s sometimes like watching body builders have a crack at Swan Lake. All expertly said from the comfort of my virtual armchair 😜
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To be fair, this thread has been all through that point too. Of course the sport is ultimately at fault, which is why I've no interest in watching it anymore. CJD shone a ruddy big light on what's wrong with horses in sport, and the only way that can be reversed is to change the way it's judged.
 
God this is just sad.

The person whistleblowing is “just” as culpable as the person repeatedly hitting the horse???

We should just all be quiet now and accept that these things may or may not continue happening behind closed doors bc someone a lot worse is allowed to continue???

Where’s the horse in all of this?
 
It's completely insane to me people bringing up 'be kind' and second chances. Abuse of horse in the name of 'sport' should have an absolute ZERO!! tolerance!!
There was an opportunity here for her to own up and say the whole dressage world is broken. And she wants to change to fix or. Or something. That could have been a second chance I suppose but that won't happen.
It was not the first time and I have no faith it will be the last. I don't know tons of professional riders but the ones I do know were not at all surprised by the video. Just because helgstrand got another chance Charlotte should too did someone say above???
I am so so so disappointed in this horse world at the moment. What on earth is the point in any of it.
 
ramsaybailey said:
It's completely insane to me people bringing up 'be kind' and second chances. Abuse of horse in the name of 'sport' should have an absolute ZERO!! tolerance!!
There was an opportunity here for her to own up and say the whole dressage world is broken. And she wants to change to fix or. Or something. That could have been a second chance I suppose but that won't happen.
It was not the first time and I have no faith it will be the last. I don't know tons of professional riders but the ones I do know were not at all surprised by the video. Just because helgstrand got another chance Charlotte should too did someone say above???
I am so so so disappointed in this horse world at the moment. What on earth is the point in any of it.
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^^ This
 
ramsaybailey said:
It's completely insane to me people bringing up 'be kind' and second chances. Abuse of horse in the name of 'sport' should have an absolute ZERO!! tolerance!!
There was an opportunity here for her to own up and say the whole dressage world is broken. And she wants to change to fix or. Or something. That could have been a second chance I suppose but that won't happen.
It was not the first time and I have no faith it will be the last. I don't know tons of professional riders but the ones I do know were not at all surprised by the video. Just because helgstrand got another chance Charlotte should too did someone say above???
I am so so so disappointed in this horse world at the moment. What on earth is the point in any of it.
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In what world would giving Helgstrand a second chance but no second chance to Charlotte be fair?Is it because she is a woman?
 
I think this post needs putting to bed now. It’s run for long enough . Can any of us say really honestly, we had never ever done something we regretted ..??
Give her a chance. She will be in the headlights on every thing she does for next year or so.
Even people in prison get a second chance don’t they. But on Social MEDIA media one can be hung drawn and quartered 😥
 
ROMANY 1959 said:
I think this post needs putting to bed now. It’s run for long enough . Can any of us say really honestly, we had never ever done something we regretted ..??
Give her a chance. She will be in the headlights on every thing she does for next year or so.
Even people in prison get a second chance don’t they. But on Social MEDIA media one can be hung drawn and quartered 😥
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Why? This thread is about how horses are treated in dressage and what we can do to help bring about change.

Why would you want that shut down?

And again, would you be happy for your horse to be the one being used to show her training methods have changed? Behind closed doors. No cameras. No audience.
 
paisley said:
I don’t think CDJ could ever show enough remorse to satisfy some people. It has quite rightly been castigated as reprehensible behaviour that shamed dressage and tainted horse sport in general. However, 114 pages later and still going? I’m of an age to remember Polly Phillips and how public opinion has influence. At the moment, the methods and riding approach from CDJ wins classes/championships, so that isn’t likely to change any time soon. Rather than targeting an individual endlessly, it’s an opportunity to disagree and challenge the system in general, why tense stressed horses are marked highly for ‘big’ movements with no lightness or elegance. It’s sometimes like watching body builders have a crack at Swan Lake. All expertly said from the comfort of my virtual armchair 😜
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I don't think CDJ is parallel to Polly Phillips. I don't recollect ever seeing anything about Polly Phillips being rough with her horses. I seem to recollect that, after qualifying for the Olympics, salicylic acid was found in the horse's system. There was no suggestion that she did that herself, and I believe it was later thought to have been through contaminated haylage, unbeknownst to her.

There was public condemnation, and I do see that it was harmful and hurtful, but mistaken haylage contamination is a far cry from someone deliberately and repeatedly beating a horse. I believe it would be worse for Polly Phillips as she hadn't personally done anything wrong, although she was, of course, responsible for the care of her horse so the elimination itself was correct.

I would not let CDJ ride my horses now, were I to be in a position to be an 'owner' of such a magnificent beast. It would be distasteful to me. Had Polly been alive, I would not have hesitated to send a horse there, again were I to be fortunate enough to own one of sufficient calibre.

Or did I misunderstand your point?
 
ROMANY 1959 said:
I think this post needs putting to bed now. It’s run for long enough . Can any of us say really honestly, we had never ever done something we regretted ..??
Give her a chance. She will be in the headlights on every thing she does for next year or so.
Even people in prison get a second chance don’t they. But on Social MEDIA media one can be hung drawn and quartered 😥
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But she doesn't regret her actions, she regrets being filmed and caught. It was clearly not a one off and a tried and tested 'training' mechanism. Yes, I've done things I've regretted... but I have never done them a second or third time.

I think the biggest issue so many of us have is that she was a huge advocate for equine welfare... we actually believed that someone could reach the top without abuse. How wrong we were. (Though I still live in hope that there is some out there who are truely kind, patient and train them horses with empathy)
 
ROMANY 1959 said:
But on Social MEDIA media one can be hung drawn and quartered 😥
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She is being criticised. She hasn't gone to jail, she paid a nominal fine, took a year off she would have taken anyway and now she is being criticised on a forum thread she will never read, none of her sponsors will ever see and she will never know exists. People posting that they don't trust her not to do it again is not actually a consequence being applied to her.
 
Red-1 said:
I don't think CDJ is parallel to Polly Phillips. I don't recollect ever seeing anything about Polly Phillips being rough with her horses. I seem to recollect that, after qualifying for the Olympics, salicylic acid was found in the horse's system. There was no suggestion that she did that herself, and I believe it was later thought to have been through contaminated haylage, unbeknownst to her.

There was public condemnation, and I do see that it was harmful and hurtful, but mistaken haylage contamination is a far cry from someone deliberately and repeatedly beating a horse. I believe it would be worse for Polly Phillips as she hadn't personally done anything wrong, although she was, of course, responsible for the care of her horse so the elimination itself was correct.

I would not let CDJ ride my horses now, were I to be in a position to be an 'owner' of such a magnificent beast. It would be distasteful to me. Had Polly been alive, I would not have hesitated to send a horse there, again were I to be fortunate enough to own one of sufficient calibre.

Or did I misunderstand your point?
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I meant in terms of public condemnation and pressure it must have put on Polly as WEG medals and Olympic qualification was lost- never ever would I equate Polly Phillips with rough horse treatment.
 
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