CDJ withdrawn from paris

[BurntontheoutsideTurkey]

Even people in prison get a second chance don’t they. But on Social MEDIA media one can be hung drawn and quartered

This kind of characterisation of valid criticism as a harmful over-reaction is simply a mechanism to shut people up. Who are you to tell people what they should be discussing, and why would you want people to stop discussing this issue (the way dressage horses are trained) in particular?

 

[ramsaybailey]

In what world would giving Helgstrand a second chance but no second chance to Charlotte be fair?Is it because she is a woman?

Just have to reply to this to confirm I certainly do not think Helgstrand should have been given a second chance

 

[Burnerbee]

On balance I think Charlotte should be given a second chance especially as Helgstrand is back and I think he has and does far worse than Charlotte has ever even thought of doing.What troubles me is that most of us know that what passes for top level dressage is often ugly and abusive.I don't see that changing frankly and I am sorry for that.

This is not meant to be a race to the bottom. If, at school, your teacher told you off and your response was ‘Johnny did it too’ YOU and he, if he was equally guilty, would be told off / suspended / expelled as appropriate.

 

[I'm Dun]

In what world would giving Helgstrand a second chance but no second chance to Charlotte be fair?Is it because she is a woman?

Neither should have had a second chance. If that was Joe Bloggs beating his dog like that it would be a lifetime ban unless there were extreme mitigating circumstances. But someone who revealed they trained by hitting a dog with a whip multiple times would get no second chance.

If horses screamed I dont think she would have gotten off with a year ban coinciding with pregnancy

 

[I'm Dun]

Do people in prison get a second chance? Kind of. They absolutely dont get a clean slate do over though which is what is happening here. They cant get jobs because most employers wont touch them no matter what the mitigation was. Careers are destroyed and familes tend to be ripped apart. Its not just 6 months playing xbox in a cushy cell and then back to normal.

And 70% of women and somewhere between 30% and 50% of men in prison have mental health issues, and there's usually a damn good reason why people turn to crime and it isn't to win a dressage test. People tend to go to prison because society has failed them, but that is a discussion for another thread.

But to compare a prision sentence with the punishment CDJ got is ludicrous.

It does raise a good point though, why wasnt she prosecuted for animal abuse? Its pretty clear cut yet nothing at all was done. Why not?

 

[smolmaus]

It does raise a good point though, why wasnt she prosecuted for animal abuse? Its pretty clear cut yet nothing at all was done. Why not?

It isn't abuse to hit or harm a horse because that's what you have to do to train them

 

[Trot_on]

Do people in prison get a second chance? Kind of. They absolutely dont get a clean slate do over though which is what is happening here. They cant get jobs because most employers wont touch them no matter what the mitigation was. Careers are destroyed and familes tend to be ripped apart. Its not just 6 months playing xbox in a cushy cell and then back to normal.

And 70% of women and somewhere between 30% and 50% of men in prison have mental health issues, and there's usually a damn good reason why people turn to crime and it isn't to win a dressage test. People tend to go to prison because society has failed them, but that is a discussion for another thread.

But to compare a prision sentence with the punishment CDJ got is ludicrous.

It does raise a good point though, why wasnt she prosecuted for animal abuse? Its pretty clear cut yet nothing at all was done. Why not?

Such a good point. It goes back to what’s normalised with treatment of horses.

Interesting as rules for livestock would mean the same actions of a handler result in a prosecution, in the same way it would a dog or cat.

Horses seem to always fall through the gap of pet and livestock - protected by neither legislation. It’s really sad.

 

[tristars]

I've never heard a horse breath like the one on the video while working

Sheer terror

 

[eahotson]

Do people in prison get a second chance? Kind of. They absolutely dont get a clean slate do over though which is what is happening here. They cant get jobs because most employers wont touch them no matter what the mitigation was. Careers are destroyed and familes tend to be ripped apart. Its not just 6 months playing xbox in a cushy cell and then back to normal.

And 70% of women and somewhere between 30% and 50% of men in prison have mental health issues, and there's usually a damn good reason why people turn to crime and it isn't to win a dressage test. People tend to go to prison because society has failed them, but that is a discussion for another thread.

But to compare a prision sentence with the punishment CDJ got is ludicrous.

It does raise a good point though, why wasnt she prosecuted for animal abuse? Its pretty clear cut yet nothing at all was done. Why not?

 

[eahotson]

I worked in a prison for approximately 3 years .It was a women's prison but I don’t recognise these poor victims of society in the main.One pair committed a particularly nasty murder.Anothet,a young pregnant

Neither should have had a second chance. If that was Joe Bloggs beating his dog like that it would be a lifetime ban unless there were extreme mitigating circumstances. But someone who revealed they trained by hitting a dog with a whip multiple times would get no second chance.

If horses screamed I dont think she would have gotten off with a year ban coinciding with pregnancy

 

[eahotson]

I worked in a prison for approximately 3 years .It was a women's prison but I don’t recognise these poor victims of society in the main.One pair committed a particularly nasty murder.Anothet,a young pregnant

Meant to finish.A young pregnant girl raped another with a broom handle.One young nurse though committed a theft.She was bitterly ashamed of herself but heg employers,recognising that what she had done was uncharitaristic of her,were going to give her a second chance.A wise and humane decision.
Should Charlotte be prosecuted?Well,to my horror I saw in the HH mag a photo of a race horse. He was blind folded,two men were dragging him to the gate and two pushing him and the jockey was hitting him.He was surrounded by a noisy crowd.Marcus Armytage said he wasn't scared but "stubborn".No one seemed to think there was anything wrong, least of all the HH mag which published the picture.Far worse IMHO than anything Charlotte did.

 

[Upthecreek]

I think this post needs putting to bed now. It’s run for long enough . Can any of us say really honestly, we had never ever done something we regretted ..??
Give her a chance. She will be in the headlights on every thing she does for next year or so.
Even people in prison get a second chance don’t they. But on Social MEDIA media one can be hung drawn and quartered

I can honestly say I have never abused an animal. Ever.

 

[equinerebel]

Should Charlotte be prosecuted?Well,to my horror I saw in the HH mag a photo of a race horse. He was blind folded,two men were dragging him to the gate and two pushing him and the jockey was hitting him.He was surrounded by a noisy crowd.Marcus Armytage said he wasn't scared but "stubborn".No one seemed to think there was anything wrong, least of all the HH mag which published the picture.Far worse IMHO than anything Charlotte did.

That doesn’t justify what CDJ did? Two bads still make a bad. It’s all illustrative of the general disdain we seem to almost uniquely treat horses with. We expect them to be subjected to a far higher and more sustained level of violence than we do almost any other domestic animal.

It’s quite simple. If she had beaten a dog with a whip, and complained that it didn’t make a good enough sound to sufficiently scare the animal, what would you say? If she was then more bothered about it being filmed and released than she was her own actions?

And again, would you allow your horse to be trained by her? Without you around.

 

[Exasperated]

Meant to finish.A young pregnant girl raped another with a broom handle.One young nurse though committed a theft.She was bitterly ashamed of herself but heg employers,recognising that what she had done was uncharitaristic of her,were going to give her a second chance.A wise and humane decision.
Should Charlotte be prosecuted?Well,to my horror I saw in the HH mag a photo of a race horse. He was blind folded,two men were dragging him to the gate and two pushing him and the jockey was hitting him.He was surrounded by a noisy crowd.Marcus Armytage said he wasn't scared but "stubborn".No one seemed to think there was anything wrong, least of all the HH mag which published the picture.Far worse IMHO than anything Charlotte did.

I agree with this, starting stalls generally very stressful and hazardous for all concerned, really dislike them, horses being forced into them is distasteful to see and presumably to experience.
CJD’s behaviour (the notorious video, obviously can’t comment on rest of her activities) was seriously aggravating and tormenting that horse; not wounding it physically, but the animal is unlikely to forget; for no obvious training purpose other than to ‘show’ the horse that she could - and is entirely reprehensible.
Prosecutable? Is there much to be gained from a celeb trial where the true damage inflicted on the victim is legally difficult/ impossible to quantify? And minimal at the side of multiple, everyday cases of serious animal cruelty and neglect which go unremarked? With a clogged system of existing court delays and expense - dubious.
The reluctance of sponsors, and relentless, ongoing scrutiny should be far more effective, also keep the issue in the public eye, whereas retiring backstage (even to continue mischief?) would not.
Anyway, she does have the opportunity, let’s hope good comes out of it.
(Plus, we’re desperate for nurses, probably rests more on what was stolen, and for what purpose?!)

 

[eahotson]

I worked in a prison for approximately 3 years .It was a women's prison but I don’t recognise these poor victims of society in the main.One pair committed a particularly nasty murder.Anothet,a young pregnant

I agree with this, starting stalls generally very stressful and hazardous for all concerned, really dislike them, horses being forced into them is distasteful to see and presumably to experience.
CJD’s behaviour (the notorious video, obviously can’t comment on rest of her activities) was seriously aggravating and tormenting that horse; not wounding it physically, but the animal is unlikely to forget; for no obvious training purpose other than to ‘show’ the horse that she could - and is entirely reprehensible.
Prosecutable? Is there much to be gained from a celeb trial where the true damage inflicted on the victim is legally difficult/ impossible to quantify? And minimal at the side of multiple, everyday cases of serious animal cruelty and neglect which go unremarked? With a clogged system of existing court delays and expense - dubious.
The reluctance of sponsors, and relentless, ongoing scrutiny should be far more effective, also keep the issue in the public eye, whereas retiring backstage (even to continue mischief?) would not.
Anyway, she does have the opportunity, let’s hope good comes out of it.
(Plus, we’re desperate for nurses, probably rests more on what was stolen, and for what purpose?!)

I don't remember what she stole but I liked her and was glad she was getting a second chance.

 

[GSD Woman]

I’m fully aware of that. But do you genuinely believe everybody uses a whip that way?

Of course not. I'm a realist. But, I would hate to see a useful tool, that when used correctly doesn't seem to hurt the horse.

IMHO, CDJ needs to be subject to frequent, unannounced visits to make sure she's not beating the snot out of a horse.

 

[GSD Woman]

people have been using R+ to train polar bears, big cats, killer whales etc for many years. If you can train a bear or a jaguar not to take your hand off, you can probably train a randy horse to wait a minute (if you know what you're doing).

These wild animals are confined. The teeny tiny little steps to get those behaviors tend to take quite a bit of time.
I trained young monkeys to let me draw blood. But, they were caged and I didn't have to worry about one hurting me like a stallion excited to be bred.

And, remember the killer whale that took out that trainer at Sea World.

 

[Caol Ila]

I think GSD Woman makes a very fair point. I know people say, 'but they use +R for all these exotic, wild animals,' but I don't think it's the same with horses because they are subject to far more daily handling than zoo animals. I do use +R when I can, and I would never, ever be anything but horrified by what Charlotte was doing on that video, but I've also swung a rope around to get a pushy horse out of my space. I am an ar**shole to horses acting as the gate police when I need to get my horse in or out of it. And *of course* you would not do that with lions.

I don't think orcas are the best example....The death mentioned by GSD Woman is one of many attacks by orcas on trainers, because those guys really, really should not be living in tanks and taught tricks for human entertainment.

 

[smolmaus]

I think GSD Woman makes a very fair point. I know people say, 'but they use +R for all these exotic, wild animals,' but I don't think it's the same with horses because they are subject to far more daily handling than zoo animals. I do use +R when I can, and I would never, ever be anything but horrified by what Charlotte was doing on that video, but I've also swung a rope around to get a pushy horse out of my space. I am an ar**shole to horses acting as the gate police when I need to get my horse in or out of it. And *of course* you would not do that with lions.

I don't think orcas are the best example....The death mentioned by GSD Woman is one of many attacks by orcas on trainers, because those guys really, really should not be living in tanks and taught tricks for human entertainment.

Its not the same, no, but "a horse is too dangerous to train with +R" is just a tired and silly statement at this point and "is it more dangerous than a rhino" is a very simple rhetorical.

The orca is a fantastic example because that is a wild animal in serious chronic stress to the point of genuine mental illness, and they still respond to R+. They should of course not be in tanks in the first place, it's absolutely evil, but the R+ training in the evil circumstance is still effective, even if it can't be ethical. You can't put a chain on an orca, or smack them to make them behave. The most "powerful" method of training the most dangerous captive animal that might (and perhaps should, in fairness) eat you is R+. I would maybe even go so far as to say that the only reason you can train a horse with pain and fear ( a la CDJ, I dont mean swishing a rope) is because they are not very dangerous at all in comparison. They will usually comply instead of killing you. I have seen horses accept having their mouth yanked and a slap for something as ridiculous as calling to a friend when they should be silent or just slipping on wet ground. If they were truly dangerous animals, would people find it that easy to be casually and unfairly violent? Pre-coffee ramblings on a dismal Wednesday

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Of course not. I'm a realist. But, I would hate to see a useful tool, that when used correctly doesn't seem to hurt the horse.

IMHO, CDJ needs to be subject to frequent, unannounced visits to make sure she's not beating the snot out of a horse.

Anyone who needs ongoing welfare checks to make sure they're not actually beating their horses should be banned from being anywhere near animals for life.
She was constantly surrounded by people. Carl, Alan, grooms, pupils, trainers, media, tv crews, cameras, owners, sponsors, spectators. She was still doing it.

 

[ramsaybailey]

Anyone who needs ongoing welfare checks to make sure they're not actually beating their horses should be banned from being anywhere near animals for life.
She was constantly surrounded by people. Carl, Alan, grooms, pupils, trainers, media, tv crews, cameras, owners, sponsors, spectators. She was still doing it.

Exactly!!!

 

[HaplessHorse]

Yes, I really don’t think zoo animals are that relevant to horses, and if I’m being honest, I don’t think zoo animals should be trained to do anything other than stand for a vet check. Anything else that involves humans wandering around with them is potentially distressing and likely dangerous for the human.

The reason I don’t think the zoo situation is applicable to horses is because horses fall in an odd grey area. A lot of modern horses are not adapted to survive in the wild completely on their own, and are adapted for human management to some extent. This means, in my eyes, they are at least partially domesticated. However, they can’t really be compared to your pet dog because they are not ‘fully’ domesticated. They don’t live in our house with us and can (in some cases) live in semi-feral states (eg. Dartmoor ponies, mustangs, etc)

They are sentient animals and we should not act in frustration towards them; hitting them for the sake of aesthetics and prizes is absolutely reprehensible. I don’t think there would be any other way to describe it.

However, if you are in a potentially dangerous situation, this is fundamentally a 500kg semi-wild animal that has got itself into a frenzied state, pushing them away by waving something at them is acceptable. If a horse bit my arm, I’d slap it with a firm “NO”. In a herd environment, if a subordinate horse bites the leader, they will get bitten back to put them in their place. A relatively light slap serves as a reinforcement to “NO” in these situations. I use pressure if a horse invades my space to gently push them away, alongside stepping towards them. At the gate, when bringing Saus in/out I use the above technique to ensure the other horse gives me space to safely bring Saus in and get her headcollar off. Supercob knows it is not acceptable to approach or stress Saus at the gate. (Even if Supercob’s intentions are just a ‘hi’ at the gate, it does stress Saus out when she’s unable to ‘run away’). If you watch herd interactions, they use pressure and release to ask other herd members to move around. All human interaction with horses should be based off (settled) herd interactions, in my opinion, because this is clear and natural to the horse. Pressure and release is not inherently stressful, it’s just a way of communicating. I also use significant amounts of +R, the ratio of +R : pressure and release varies on a horse-by-horse basis.

Again, whips are not inherently stressful, they are a training aid that can be misused by people like CDJ. They can be used as a “pointer”, as a gentle reinforcement to pressure, as a way of repositioning pressure in training (ie. You are stood on one side of the horse and asking it to draw close to you - in the initial phases at least).

Personally, I just don’t like spurs. A professional rider may be able to use them without consistently causing pain, but the principle is that they elevate pressure to potentially uncomfortable levels. I think that a horse that needs spurs to understand leg pressure needs to go back to foundation training. And humans who feel that spurs are completely necessary need to take a step back and have a long, hard think about what they’re doing.

A lot of these things are not inherently abusive but if used incorrectly, they can be. I think that people who cannot be trusted to treat a horse like the sentient animal it is should not be allowed anywhere near them. This includes CDJ and Helgstrand, among others.

PS: I let my horses be loose for most training, so they have the opportunity to disengage and step away if uncomfortable, bored or frustrated. I usually switch tasks if they disengage.

Quite a lengthy rant, sorry! Feel free to completely skip over it!

 

[Exasperated]

I think GSD Woman makes a very fair point. I know people say, 'but they use +R for all these exotic, wild animals,' but I don't think it's the same with horses because they are subject to far more daily handling than zoo animals. I do use +R when I can, and I would never, ever be anything but horrified by what Charlotte was doing on that video, but I've also swung a rope around to get a pushy horse out of my space. I am an ar**shole to horses acting as the gate police when I need to get my horse in or out of it. And *of course* you would not do that with lions.

I don't think orcas are the best example....The death mentioned by GSD Woman is one of many attacks by orcas on trainers, because those guys really, really should not be living in tanks and taught tricks for human entertainment.

Of course.
But there’s another training / re educating issue here, rather conveniently forgotten:
At risk of poking a bear (which bear may or may not have been ethically dealt with),
If people wish for CDJ to genuinely re learn, re appraise and revise her behaviour and beliefs, where’s all the much-vaunted, R+ encouragement and inducements towards achieving that end? Out the window?
Vehement denial and excoriating condemnation of whatever she does hardly fits the model (albeit unlikely ever to be seen).
In contrast, if someone flatly refused to accept that an animal could change its feral spots, that it needed some permanent, physical containing and restraining - instead of food inducements towards newly learned behaviours and tricks - I suspect supporters of R+ learning theory would be up in arms.

 

[smolmaus]

Of course.
But there’s another training / re educating issue here, rather conveniently forgotten:
At risk of poking a bear (which bear may or may not have been ethically dealt with),
If people wish for CDJ to genuinely re learn, re appraise and revise her behaviour and beliefs, where’s all the much-vaunted, R+ encouragement and inducements towards achieving that end? Out the window?
Vehement denial and excoriating condemnation of whatever she does hardly fits the model (albeit unlikely ever to be seen).
In contrast, if someone flatly refused to accept that an animal could change its feral spots, that it needed some permanent, physical containing and restraining - instead of food inducements towards newly learned behaviours and tricks - I suspect supporters of R+ learning theory would be up in arms.

You're getting it. She is positively reinforced with money, like we all are when we get paid to do jobs. She is also reinforced with fame and attention and more money from sponsors. What is CURRENTLY being rewarded now she is back to being paid to ride and winning competitions is currently unknown, which is the problem.

When we give someone a ribbon at a competition and reward them with money and attention and praise, are we reinforcing and rewarding an abusive training system?

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

I think there's a big difference between using force for safety and just to get it to pick its feet up more to do some stupid fancy movement

 

[equinerebel]

If people wish for CDJ to genuinely re learn, re appraise and revise her behaviour and beliefs

Does CDJ want to relearn, reappraise and revise her behaviour? I haven’t seen anywhere that she does.

 

[meleeka]

When we give someone a ribbon at a competition and reward them with money and attention and praise, are we reinforcing and rewarding an abusive training system?

Absolutely. I've never done dressage, so am totally ignorant on whether it's even possible to train a horse in a kind manner and achieve the same flingy leg, tense, dressage that we see at top level today? At this stage I'm assuming they are all abused to some degree.

 

[tristars]

The fei stated that the incident was a , erm, one off isolated incident

The use of spurs has always concerned me

Taking a horse through its training from backing to advanced should be governed by the horse, when the horse is ready it will advance as a consequence of the effort put into conditioning it to be actually able to respond, work it has gone through to set it up for the next level , set it up to succeed naturally

Once it gets there, it stays there at the higher level, it does not forget how, it does not become unsound, develop distorted physical postures or look pixxed off and slash its tail around

It looks beautiful and happy



I don't see comparing horses with others species particularly helpful, horses are gentle, sensitive, aware, alertly paying attention even when they they look like they are not, have their own unique qualities that need understanding very much so because they are ridden, asked to comply very closely with another species, but still always having that part that will always be a wild horse.

 

[reynold]

Whilst not thinking that a witch hunt is a good thing, perhaps if the owners of competition horses were more widely publicised, say every time the horse entered the ring the owner was announced over the tannoy, it could help to stop the 'financial support' given to those suspended for horse abuse.

As mentioned several times above, the owners of CDJ current mounts are complicit in facilitating the possible future abuse of horses - similarly Helgstrand's owners. Outing owners though won't stop CDJ riding horses she owns personally in competition.

Personally I think there ought to be more long term consequences for abuse and I will be disgusted if CDJ gets back her UK Sport funding.

As there has been mention/comparison above with starting stalls in racing I will put out a racing analogy here. Recently Oisin Murphy was convicted of drink driving and banned for 20 months. Although previously champion flat jockey he has also had a previous long ban from racing for drink/drug abuse. Following his dd conviction the racing authorities have put in place long term pre-race and out of race testing programs, but also put in place additional 'support' to help him with his alcohol problems.

Horse racing is not perfect but it does seem in comparison that BD is prepared to let a rider banned for serious horse abuse just pick up where they left off and carry on without any further oversight.

Also in regard to owners I believe that one of the people laughing in the gallery of the original CDJ video was the abused horse's owner. Perhaps she ought also to have received a ban or other 'punishment' for allowing abuse to continue right in front of her....?

 

[eahotson]

Whilst not thinking that a witch hunt is a good thing, perhaps if the owners of competition horses were more widely publicised, say every time the horse entered the ring the owner was announced over the tannoy, it could help to stop the 'financial support' given to those suspended for horse abuse.

As mentioned several times above, the owners of CDJ current mounts are complicit in facilitating the possible future abuse of horses - similarly Helgstrand's owners. Outing owners though won't stop CDJ riding horses she owns personally in competition.

Personally I think there ought to be more long term consequences for abuse and I will be disgusted if CDJ gets back her UK Sport funding.

As there has been mention/comparison above with starting stalls in racing I will put out a racing analogy here. Recently Oisin Murphy was convicted of drink driving and banned for 20 months. Although previously champion flat jockey he has also had a previous long ban from racing for drink/drug abuse. Following his dd conviction the racing authorities have put in place long term pre-race and out of race testing programs, but also put in place additional 'support' to help him with his alcohol problems.

Horse racing is not perfect but it does seem in comparison that BD is prepared to let a rider banned for serious horse abuse just pick up where they left off and carry on without any further oversight.

Also in regard to owners I believe that one of the people laughing in the gallery of the original CDJ video was the abused horse's owner. Perhaps she ought also to have received a ban or other 'punishment' for allowing abuse to continue right in front of her....?

That pre and post testing plus support is to help that particular person with addiction problems that could cost him his life.It is good management practice.
We all know that dressage has its problems but when did you last see a dressage horse dragged into a ring with a blind folded on and the rider hitting it?Do you think anyone audience would find that acceptable?