CDJ withdrawn from paris

suestowford said:
The bad examples in that video all have very jerky movement, the slow mo really shows why, with their hooves waving about like that it would be impossible to move smoothly. The jerky movement must be very hard to sit, but I suppose the saddles wedge them well in.
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And it's why I bang on about high cantles and big knee blocks, you just can't let horses move this way if you have a more open seat that suits the pelvis (and you don't need to, if you understand how it helps a horse push up in front), and smaller blocks. It would help horse and mankind SO much if we didn't keep offering this style of saddle as the default.
 
sbloom said:
And it's why I bang on about high cantles and big knee blocks, you just can't let horses move this way if you have a more open seat that suits the pelvis (and you don't need to, if you understand how it helps a horse push up in front), and smaller blocks. It would help horse and mankind SO much if we didn't keep offering this style of saddle as the default.
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I came across this saddle the other day and thought it had about the highest cantle I have ever seen - I can't imagine it's comfortable.
https://www.tradeinn.com/horse-ridi...MIjOnQubGAkAMVLZlQBh3GyjENEAQYAiABEgIrafD_BwE

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AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
Not once horse in that video looks remotely free of tension, especially the grey spanish looking one that is supposed to be a good example of passage
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This is also an issue for me (aside from the examples that are clearly massively wrong biomechanically). Are they physically compromised anyway and working despite that, are they not enjoying the work, or does this level of collection or effort (bracing) mean they are going to look tense/unhappy, in which case how ethical is it to ask them to do something they aren't enjoying even if it looks biomechanically correct? Or is it just 'concentration face', as is often posited?
 
Burnttoast said:
This is also an issue for me (aside from the examples that are clearly massively wrong biomechanically). Are they physically compromised anyway and working despite that, are they not enjoying the work, or does this level of collection or effort (bracing) mean they are going to look tense/unhappy, in which case how ethical is it to ask them to do something they aren't enjoying even if it looks biomechanically correct? Or is it just 'concentration face', as is often posited?
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Interestingly these horses do super advanced dressage moves at liberty with their owner, and their neck position/ears look similarly to the video in some places, the absence of mouth tension due to lack of bitting does make a stark difference to the overall picture I think too

 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
Interestingly these horses do super advanced dressage moves at liberty with their owner, and their neck position/ears look similarly to the video in some places, the absence of mouth tension due to lack of bitting does make a stark difference to the overall picture I think too

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I saw that as well and also wondered. I wish there was some way of accessing the horse's experience, because I don't in general enjoy seeing that look on any horse's face and particularly not because they are doing something at the behest of a human.
 
Guess the gait/movement
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AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
I came across this saddle the other day and thought it had about the highest cantle I have ever seen - I can't imagine it's comfortable.
https://www.tradeinn.com/horse-ridi...MIjOnQubGAkAMVLZlQBh3GyjENEAQYAiABEgIrafD_BwE

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Oh there are LOADS around like that, and the cantle doesn't even have to be THAT high if the balance point is rearward so you sit right up against it. Everything about these sorts of saddles works against correct biomechanics/kinematics for horse and rider (there might be the odd exception where the seat shape happens to suit a slim person, slim enough that they're not up against either cantle or blocks, but how many people would buy a saddle on that basis?!). If you look at how competition riders sit and compare it to how the masters say it's night and day.
 
Wowser, thats some saddle! I used to have a Passier Grand Gilbert saddle which I absolutely loved and it fitted a lot of my horses, I used it until it literally fell apart, the top and bottom of the saddle was parting company, but it was such a comfortable saddle, I hate the feeling of being wedged in that I feel in so many more modern saddles.
 
Burnttoast said:
Not sure if a 'what's up with dressage generally' thread is needed at this point but this popped up on my fb today. I've been wondering about modern passages for ages and this is a good analysis. Have people stopped training it from trot in the absence of genuine collection? Are they training piaffe from halt/walk by whacking legs a la Morten Thomsen and then allowing the piaffe to creep?
https://www.facebook.com/100056499083044/posts/pfbid0dkmPPxRStb44ss3xp6tSyhpqddpMoFvHdkMVJQ94wWUJY1wUquHvZBBhPGB1Th7pl
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Thank you for that! I've known what I was seeing was wrong but couldnt put it into words. Its the "backwards" movement of the legs! Alongside other stuff, but that was the bit I couldnt explain.
 
I'm Dun said:
Thank you for that! I've known what I was seeing was wrong but couldnt put it into words. Its the "backwards" movement of the legs! Alongside other stuff, but that was the bit I couldnt explain.
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My old instructor pointed out the 'new passage' where the leg stops in mid-air to me 20+ years ago and I've been wondering about it on and off ever since, so I'm 'pleased' to see people taking a close look at it. Collectif pour les Chevaux is now posting photo sequences of movements and gaits that include all the moments magazines won't print because the legs are doing things that look deeply incorrect or downright impossible.
 
daffy44 said:
Wowser, thats some saddle! I used to have a Passier Grand Gilbert saddle which I absolutely loved and it fitted a lot of my horses, I used it until it literally fell apart, the top and bottom of the saddle was parting company, but it was such a comfortable saddle, I hate the feeling of being wedged in that I feel in so many more modern saddles.
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And the best modern ways of fitting saddles take than flatter, open seat but make it more pelvis shape, fitting to the individual rider's skeleton (pelvis shape, hip articulation and finally leg and foot proportions) to give them a good base of support from the go get. A stable rider is a much easier load after all :)
 
I'm Dun said:
Thank you for that! I've known what I was seeing was wrong but couldnt put it into words. Its the "backwards" movement of the legs! Alongside other stuff, but that was the bit I couldnt explain.
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& what I also wasn't able to see until slowed down was both fronts off the ground in a kind of "leap"
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
Interestingly these horses do super advanced dressage moves at liberty with their owner, and their neck position/ears look similarly to the video in some places, the absence of mouth tension due to lack of bitting does make a stark difference to the overall picture I think too

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one of mine will piaffe and passage in the field and he's often looking less than chirpy when he does it - I call it his concentration face.

Its usually followed by a buck and a fart at which point the ears come forward again.

We can get all the moves when the farmer releases sheep into the neighbouring field. Shame about our ability to canter a decent 20m circle though.
 
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Beausmate said:
Dunno... Shuffle dance?

That horse looks incredibly tucked up. But I guess you really need to crunch that core to get the angle of dangle spot on.
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Might as well be!

I've thought how weak and tucked up dressage horses are sometimes looking these days. Apparently (according to the photo sequence) she's in passage.
 
The big difference for me with the liberty vs restricted dressage moves is that in the liberty videos, the horses clearly have freedom to release the tension being created in their bodies by doing the movements.

In the liberty videos, there's a drop of the neck, a toss of the head, a momentary drop in the degree of balance before returning to the movement; each and all of those moments allows the body to let go of the tension the horse is experiencing before he willingly returns to the movement, so executing the movements doesn't cost the horse any lasting physical issues because he is able to free himself of that before it starts to. The movements are tricky to do, so it doesn't surprise me that they are showing focus and concentration in their faces - a tension of sorts.

In most of the ridden scenarios I see, the horse is in a restrictive contact to a greater or lesser degree, he is not allowed to drop or flick his head and neck, he is conditioned to keeping the same level with his back until he is told he can stop in order that the (false) picture looks balanced, he has his mouth strapped closed to a greater or lesser degree... There is no release for his body unless/until the rider or trainer says that's enough. Even the most intuitive trainer cannot do a better job of understanding when the horse needs to let go stride-by-stride, and sadly as we know, there are a whole load of far less than intuitive trainers out there. Usually, the concentration face on horses in these scenarios is set, and lasts for significant periods of time - it's a different sort of concentration for me, two-fold. What am I being required to do, having been conditioned to knowing I have to do what the human requires me to do, and how do I do it so as to cost myself the least.


The horses at liberty (or in another +R setting) are yes, doing something on request of a person, but they have complete autonomous control of their bodies every second, and all they are generally needing to figure out is 'How do I get the cookie'.
 
I know this thread started about CDJ but I think dressage is slowly improving, my horse (no longer here) used to piaffe at the gate when she was waiting to come in and regularly passaged round the field, also would do pirouettes if she was feeling lively, none of these movements were taught by me or her previous owner. When ridden she would do these movements if she was excited so the movements in the tests are not alien to them. I’ve just seen this monstrosity on a post about show jumping which doesn’t seem to have any controls at all .
 

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daffy44 said:
Wowser, thats some saddle! I used to have a Passier Grand Gilbert saddle which I absolutely loved and it fitted a lot of my horses, I used it until it literally fell apart, the top and bottom of the saddle was parting company, but it was such a comfortable saddle, I hate the feeling of being wedged in that I feel in so many more modern saddles.
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I have a crosby freestyle 11 dressage foam panels, old style but wonderful quality and condition, it's very open seated , not much knee roll and not deep, I love it and the horses love it, I paid 50 quid for it

If ever you get the chance worth trying
 
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