CDJ withdrawn from paris

I know this is not an appropriate parallel to be drawing but I can't help seeing aspects of it in horse sport. I've just been editing a book on a slave owner and paternalist who was convinced that his estates were run in a benevolent way and that the enslaved people on his plantations were well looked after, looked up to him as a provider and caretaker and were in some respects actually better off than free peasantry back home in England (opinions not borne out by the birth rate ever exceeding the death rate, needless to say), while when it came to the crunch never being able (even as a colonial governor) to take any steps to ameliorate the system because to do so risked the creation of wealth (and his ability to service his enormous debts). So do we own these animals, control every aspect of their lives physically, cause mental harm in the process, break many of them both mentally and physically with our demands and replace them at will. I wonder how we'll look back on this in decades to come, provided civilisation lasts that long.
 
equinerebel said:
It’s a “combination” noseband of both a cavesson and a drop
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So there’s a curb chain and a drop noseband together? And a cavesson thrown in for good measure?

I sometimes think I’m going mad…some of us have invested in anatomical bridles & the like to make our horses more comfy, while on the other hand we’ve got so-called ‘professionals’ going for maximum amounts of leather & metal.
 
tristars said:
Not sure if it's new just saw horse and reporting Denmark banning double bridles before ad vanced medium, allowing bitless and doubles optional at the levels above ad medium
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Article says: "The horse’s welfare is paramount and must never be subordinate to competitive or commercial interests". Good luck with that.
Some of the proposed rules look quite good and to be honest light years ahead of where we are. It seems it really will only take government getting involved to make progress.
 
Nancykitt said:
So there’s a curb chain and a drop noseband together? And a cavesson thrown in for good measure?

I sometimes think I’m going mad…some of us have invested in anatomical bridles & the like to make our horses more comfy, while on the other hand we’ve got so-called ‘professionals’ going for maximum amounts of leather & metal.
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Yep 🫠
 
This stuff is just everywhere, like Republican child abusers :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
514255284_1173399104553381_2084971296585530520_n.jpg
 
Helgstrand and Kittel seem to have 'spurred' (intended use of word) the Scandinavian countries into action.

Based on recent history it is likely that laws made in one of the 4 Nordic countries are likely to be adopted by the other 3 countries and thus generate a voting/pressure group inside the FEI.

Although the Danish new legislation seems to only focus on bridles/nosebands and not so much on spurs (other than in relation to causing blood as per existing FEI rules). I would like to see similar focus on spurs within the discussions/changes, even to the point of them also being banned up to say medium.

One thing dressage does seem to have right in comparison with SJ is that it does have better restrictions on use of tack within the warmup - although perhaps that restriction is what caused the abuse around hyperflexion.

Sadly for every rule introduced to benefit the horse there is soon some 'clever' person creating a way round the rule's restriction, to the detriment of the horse. (Thinking here of the space over the nasal bone designed to get round the noseband tightness gauge - although that was reasonably quickly stopped by an emergency rule change).
 
reynold said:
Sadly for every rule introduced to benefit the horse there is soon some 'clever' person creating a way round the rule's restriction, to the detriment of the horse. (Thinking here of the space over the nasal bone designed to get round the noseband tightness gauge - although that was reasonably quickly stopped by an emergency rule change).
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This is why there is no real ethical future for horse sport. Illegally tweaking an engine in F1 or doing something clever with a tennis racquet is one thing. Horses are not (there are clearly still many people who need to hear this) sports equipment.
 
Burnttoast said:
Currently, supporting horse sport means supporting, for example, Daniel Coyle riding a horse called Incredible in a way that does indeed beggar belief.

https://www.facebook.com/collectif.pourleschevaux/posts/pfbid05Kb9X8VqvBGUFGJ2qKnDiGkdVVMajWXQnQenvpyrMVXByvyMR6yk1AXVmyH3Ap4ol
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I didn't know whether to choose the 'sad' or the 'angry' icon in response to this.
What an absolutely stunning horse - being treated in a thoroughly awful manner.

How can anyone stand by, see this happening and do nothing?
 
Back in 2008 at the time of the olympics, David Mitchell wrote an article criticising dressage. He admitted he didn't have the specialist knowledge to comment with any authority but nevertheless offered his views on the sport.


"Quite what treatment these creatures have been put through to get them to be this odd I dread to think, but it gets stranger: sometimes the horse and rider's obsessive antics are condemned by the commentators and judges as disappointing and sloppy, while behaviour no more or less insane is hailed as excellent and just the thing, and indeed quite the spectacle to behold."

I remember having an argument with a (non-horsey) colleague about this; the colleague was in total agreement with David Mitchell and said that watching dressage made her feel very uneasy. She commented particularly on those riders who were clearly going in hard with the spurs and put it to me that if all of these movements are indeed 'totally natural', why do the riders have to jab their horses in the side to make them move in a particular way? I don't mind admitting that, at the time, I was arguing from a pro-dressage point of view (and probably a fair bit of arrogance - 'you're not a horsey person therefore you wouldn't understand....' - although I never said this explicitly, I must have come over in that way.)

But today I revisited the 2008 article and I can say that it resonates with me in a very different way...
 
Nancykitt said:
Back in 2008 at the time of the olympics, David Mitchell wrote an article criticising dressage. He admitted he didn't have the specialist knowledge to comment with any authority but nevertheless offered his views on the sport.


"Quite what treatment these creatures have been put through to get them to be this odd I dread to think, but it gets stranger: sometimes the horse and rider's obsessive antics are condemned by the commentators and judges as disappointing and sloppy, while behaviour no more or less insane is hailed as excellent and just the thing, and indeed quite the spectacle to behold."

I remember having an argument with a (non-horsey) colleague about this; the colleague was in total agreement with David Mitchell and said that watching dressage made her feel very uneasy. She commented particularly on those riders who were clearly going in hard with the spurs and put it to me that if all of these movements are indeed 'totally natural', why do the riders have to jab their horses in the side to make them move in a particular way? I don't mind admitting that, at the time, I was arguing from a pro-dressage point of view (and probably a fair bit of arrogance - 'you're not a horsey person therefore you wouldn't understand....' - although I never said this explicitly, I must have come over in that way.)

But today I revisited the 2008 article and I can say that it resonates with me in a very different way...
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It's funny how your views can change, isn't it? I went to the 2012 Olympics (dressage and eventing x-country day) and had a great time while already disapproving of the way some of the horses were going (Jazz most obviously I remember), and with the same friend keenly got tickets for WEG in Normandy in 2014 I think, but between those dates (and with more exposure to social media I suspect) I found myself unable to go and support the riding that had actually been plainly on show for years already. Still, at least a different friend of hers (still keen on competition dressage afaik) benefited from my sold-on cheap WEG tickets.
 
Crazy_cat_lady said:
Is that not borderline rollkur?

Ban it
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It is rollkur and it is already banned. Therein lies one of the major problems, which Daffy already mentioned - the FEI doesn't enforce its own rules. Its stewards are woeful. They just want to be mates with the riders. What they need is the ex-coppers that WHW etc occasionally employ as welfare officers who don't care who you are or what excuses you have.
 
Nancykitt said:
I didn't know whether to choose the 'sad' or the 'angry' icon in response to this.
What an absolutely stunning horse - being treated in a thoroughly awful manner.

How can anyone stand by, see this happening and do nothing?
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You will see this or similar at most SJ shows, not of course by all riders, and stewards do absolutely nothing, even when pointed out….perhaps SJ should receive the attention that dressage receives…
 
Burnttoast said:
It is rollkur and it is already banned. Therein lies one of the major problems, which Daffy already mentioned - the FEI doesn't enforce its own rules. Its stewards are woeful. They just want to be mates with the riders. What they need is the ex-coppers that WHW etc occasionally employ as welfare officers who don't care who you are or what excuses you have.
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Meant ban horse "sport", its just all a complete mess and like you say the participants are pretty much allowed to do what they like, provided they stay just the right side of the line

Would be interested to see what goes on at home if they do this in public....
 
Marshpiper said:
You will see this or similar at most SJ shows, not of course by all riders, and stewards do absolutely nothing, even when pointed out….perhaps SJ should receive the attention that dressage receives…
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I think it's beginning to again. There was a period where it was definitely considered more dubious, with rapping etc. Dressage is obviously more hypocritical, though, which might account for a lot of the attention it's had recently - it's supposed to be all about harmony etc., while it actually seems to be about hauling in the front and booting at the other end - and there must have been an element of feeling that SJ didn't have to look pretty as long as the jumps stayed up, but there's more attention now on what riding horses in hyperflexion does to them physically and mentally and what it's acceptable to expect from them at all.

That's why I enjoyed the photos of the bridleless SJ I posted above. The fences were well within the capabilities of the horse, and the round was a test of training rather than of pure athletic ability harnessed by whatever means the rider and the rules deemed acceptable.
 
Crazy_cat_lady said:
Meant ban horse "sport", its just all a complete mess and like you say the participants are pretty much allowed to do what they like, provided they stay just the right side of the line

Would be interested to see what goes on at home if they do this in public....
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Oh yes definitely agree with that.
 
reynold said:
Although the Danish new legislation seems to only focus on bridles/nosebands and not so much on spurs (other than in relation to causing blood as per existing FEI rules). I would like to see similar focus on spurs within the discussions/changes, even to the point of them also being banned up to say medium.
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The FEI has at least made spurs optional for all levels. That’s a big start. But agree with you that maybe we need to look at complete bans on them for the lower levels. At least with the top riders, their leg is either consciously on or off and they’re using the spurs on purpose. Whereas so many amateur riders, especially when they’re starting to do tests all in sitting trot, are unconsciously gripping with their lower leg the whole time and digging the spur into the horse with every stride.
 
coblets said:
The FEI has at least made spurs optional for all levels. That’s a big start. But agree with you that maybe we need to look at complete bans on them for the lower levels. At least with the top riders, their leg is either consciously on or off and they’re using the spurs on purpose. Whereas so many amateur riders, especially when they’re starting to do tests all in sitting trot, are unconsciously gripping with their lower leg the whole time and digging the spur into the horse with every stride.
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Id argue top riders spur use can also be questionable and if theyre using them on purpose, its not always for a good purpose...
 
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