Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
And what a great experience for the horse!
CDJ withdrawn from paris
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Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
I get a vibe (that's all it is of course) that things are coming to a head. It's all the doubling down that's clearly going on in some quarters, and it can't be all that long before public meltdowns are way more common if the combination of terrible breeding and abusive training continues. What that means in terms of consequences I don't know, but I hope the wider media don't lose interest because that's where change will come from.
Trot_on
Well-Known Member
I understand this, but I'd be surprised that a horse that is at this level should be very well accustomed to the environment while moving up the levels. A horse bred for this level of competition is surelt exposed to the competition environment from being a foal. It looked more like the horse was trying to run from the driving aids but couldn't because of the bridle so instead it results in legs everywhere.
Iit's like the equivalent of them waving like mad to attract attention from someone to help but everyone is ignoring them. It's really sad. Is there a GJ at dressage like we have in eventing?
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
As I wrote earlier, I'm not convinced it was the environment, or the horse being sharp or charged or anything else. The virtual lack of response to accidentally kicking the white boards twice, and as others have pointed out the relaxation in walk on a long rein is at odds with the explosions, resistance and strong evasions to the movements, and that resistance is also shown on the *approach* to the sides of the arena (where the horse becomes more contained for him/her to be pressured more with less of an escape route - in the middle of the arena he/she is 'safer'). It's interesting that the biggest/longest resistance to going to the boards seems to occur after a walk - pressurising piaffe training would generally be done out of walk, along the edge of the arena, for example.
This for me strongly suggests thaat the horse has historically experienced pressurised, stressful, overwhelming training, which he/she is incredibly anxious about happening again.
This for me strongly suggests thaat the horse has historically experienced pressurised, stressful, overwhelming training, which he/she is incredibly anxious about happening again.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
I agree entirely (thought the 'getting experience' thing was worth addressing for itself, though). Videos of Morten Thomsen show him training inhand along the wall, whacking the front legs continuously with a cane or whip until the horse 'throws' the leg.
Apparently this horse has a history of hanging his whole tongue out of his mouth in tests and having to be retired from them. It's noticeable here that this doesn't happen which makes one wonder if (how?) they've fixed that and whether fixing it has left the horse limited avenues for expressing his distress.
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
That ^ ^
What I saw wasn't a hyped up, sharp horse ready and excited for work, it was a stressed horse overwhelmed by overbearing training methods that they want to escape from. IMO.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
I would wonder at the motivation behind any other interpretation tbh.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I’m often surprised how little some top level horses have been out but are then absolutely fine with atmosphere.
But there wasn’t much atmosphere here anyway
But there wasn’t much atmosphere here anyway
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
I tend to find that using positive reinforcement (and probably other methods which are agreeable to the horse) can immediately put the horse into a calm, engaged frame of mind, even in an unusual or new environment. (For example in high winds in the field, or at an arena hire, amongst many others.) The expectation of feeling good surpasses the anxiety of the unfamiliar environment - as long as it's not a threatening one of course - and with each positive experience in a new or unusual environment, the more the horse assumes each subsequent new or unusual environment will also turn out to be positive for them, and anxiety about new places in general decreases over time. (Obviously as long as interactions at home are based in positivity too.)
That these horses are so tense and clearly expressing negativity surely speaks volumes about how they are trained, and how they feel about it? It is just heartbreaking to see how these horses feel in their lives.
That these horses are so tense and clearly expressing negativity surely speaks volumes about how they are trained, and how they feel about it? It is just heartbreaking to see how these horses feel in their lives.
SEL
Well-Known Member
As someone who at my very lowly levels of UA intro has to deal with a pony who boils over I thought this set up looked quiet enough.
I didn't realise when I first watched it the test hadn't started so thought ringing the bell was eliminating them - that warm up in the ring was awful.
The horse doesn't seem to know where it's feet are. The proprioception is all over the place and I genuinely wonder if it would pass neuro tests.
shortstuff99
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nikicb
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Translation to save others having to do the same:
"Gatsby came to me when he was seven years old. He is a highly gifted and highly sensitive horse. I often posted videos on Instagram to share his development with you. I have always been very happy that you have given me a lot of courage with Gatsby and I am also very proud of his development in the meantime. In the summer we even had top placings in the Inter ll.In Ising, two weeks ago he was great to ride at first. The day before the test and also during the warm-up, it felt great. Unfortunately, we couldn't take this good feeling with us into the arena. He was very irritated by the many people and the atmosphere. I tried to give him security and trust. In this situation, it was important to me not to stop right away and leave the hall, but I wanted to wait for a situation where I would leave the hall with a positive feeling for Gatsby instead of "fleeing". I talked to him throughout the trial and encouraged him, hoping that he would calm down and trust me. Every horse is very special and individual and getting to know each other also means trying out different solutions. For example, I once finished the exam immediately in a similar situation, now I hoped that he would relax in the course of the exam. Unfortunately, we didn't succeed. I constantly question my actions and in retrospect I should have finished the exam earlier this time. Training horses is a journey of personal development, where both the horse and we grow as a person and rider. At the same time, however, it is also important to admit to yourself if you can't do something, or if a horse simply doesn't want to be a competition horse. That's where I've arrived now with Gatsby. Already at the end of the exam in Ising, I said to my family and Franzi, who accompanied me, that it made me very sad, but I think I just can't manage to give him confidence in the exam. As riders, we always have the responsibility to build a partnership with our horses based on trust. The training and personal development of our horses goes far beyond just learning lessons. Horses are sensitive and intelligent animals that are able to develop emotionally and mentally. Some of them become great personalities whose charisma we can literally feel. And what happens next? I don't know yet. But the important thing is that I decide the best for Gatsby and will do everything possible so that he continues to have a great life. I know that I have made a great contribution to his life and that he has already given me his heart at
home.
"
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I think they generated more attention asking clipmyhorse to remove it than if they’d just let it be.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I thought that at first too.
scats
Well-Known Member
A tense and confused horse who is clearly not enjoying his job.
I know I ask this all the time in instances like this, but what are we doing to these animals? What enjoyment does anyone get out of a horse looking and feeling like that?
I’m genuinely baffled by it.
I know I ask this all the time in instances like this, but what are we doing to these animals? What enjoyment does anyone get out of a horse looking and feeling like that?
I’m genuinely baffled by it.
SEL
Well-Known Member
Translation to save others having to do the same:
"Gatsby came to me when he was seven years old. He is a highly gifted and highly sensitive horse. I often posted videos on Instagram to share his development with you. I have always been very happy that you have given me a lot of courage with Gatsby and I am also very proud of his development in the meantime. In the summer we even had top placings in the Inter ll.In Ising, two weeks ago he was great to ride at first. The day before the test and also during the warm-up, it felt great. Unfortunately, we couldn't take this good feeling with us into the arena. He was very irritated by the many people and the atmosphere. I tried to give him security and trust. In this situation, it was important to me not to stop right away and leave the hall, but I wanted to wait for a situation where I would leave the hall with a positive feeling for Gatsby instead of "fleeing". I talked to him throughout the trial and encouraged him, hoping that he would calm down and trust me. Every horse is very special and individual and getting to know each other also means trying out different solutions. For example, I once finished the exam immediately in a similar situation, now I hoped that he would relax in the course of the exam. Unfortunately, we didn't succeed. I constantly question my actions and in retrospect I should have finished the exam earlier this time. Training horses is a journey of personal development, where both the horse and we grow as a person and rider. At the same time, however, it is also important to admit to yourself if you can't do something, or if a horse simply doesn't want to be a competition horse. That's where I've arrived now with Gatsby. Already at the end of the exam in Ising, I said to my family and Franzi, who accompanied me, that it made me very sad, but I think I just can't manage to give him confidence in the exam. As riders, we always have the responsibility to build a partnership with our horses based on trust. The training and personal development of our horses goes far beyond just learning lessons. Horses are sensitive and intelligent animals that are able to develop emotionally and mentally. Some of them become great personalities whose charisma we can literally feel. And what happens next? I don't know yet. But the important thing is that I decide the best for Gatsby and will do everything possible so that he continues to have a great life. I know that I have made a great contribution to his life and that he has already given me his heart at
home.
We all have times when hindsight is valuable and I can see why she hoped he would relax (been there). It would be very interesting to see Gatsby in a different environment away from the intensive training methods. Would his body just fall apart or would we see a totally different horse??
LadyGascoyne
Well-Known Member
It looks to me like a horse who has been trained the movements without having the inherent balance, maturity and foundations in place first.
To me - and I’m not a pro - watching that looks more like trained tricks than development through years of correct schooling and building from a strong basis of balance, collection and extension.
She mentions she has had the horse since it was seven and it’s only 10 now, so it’s relatively young for these very advanced movements. A lot of the foundational work will also predate her training. I’m not sure how easy it is to retrospectively instill the bits that, to my eye, look like they’ve been rushed in the horse’s development.
To me - and I’m not a pro - watching that looks more like trained tricks than development through years of correct schooling and building from a strong basis of balance, collection and extension.
She mentions she has had the horse since it was seven and it’s only 10 now, so it’s relatively young for these very advanced movements. A lot of the foundational work will also predate her training. I’m not sure how easy it is to retrospectively instill the bits that, to my eye, look like they’ve been rushed in the horse’s development.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
The latest video she's posted, showing him in "better" work still shows him as terribly unstable in his transitions etc, there's SUCH a lack of understanding of what healthy movement is. It's the training, it's not the atmosphere, that just was part of the trigger stacking. If a horse is dysfunctional then it is less able to cope with extra challenges, hitting emotional or physical "boiling point" much more easily.
Training in compression, even if it's not at the level of pure circus tricks, is harmful to horses, but it's the norm. We're just seeing more extreme versions of it here, with more unstable, "spectacular" horses.
Training in compression, even if it's not at the level of pure circus tricks, is harmful to horses, but it's the norm. We're just seeing more extreme versions of it here, with more unstable, "spectacular" horses.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
Poor horse - read where he's going. Is that movement normal in a 2 yo? I have no idea so genuine question
www.horseandhound.co.uk
‘A horse that gives you goosebumps’: young sport horse sells for €2m
A dressage-bred colt by the young sire Donkey Boss sold for €2m (£1,669,470) to headline the Verden stallion licensing and sale on Saturday (23 November)
www.horseandhound.co.uk
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
According to DHO the horse already has a new rider and is out competing. The term 'the bum's rush' was clearly invented in anticipation of this situation.
scats
Well-Known Member
Hopefully she has gone away and learnt from this. I wish she had called it quits rather than persevered, but, as you say, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
I wonder about this too. One of my horses is insanely talented, and not being over the top probably could have been an international horse.
She would go amazingly at home, amazing out at lessons and clinics, amazing at arena hires and then completely fall apart at shows. Where it would look like I had barely trained her with even the most fundamental of basics.
I tried all sort of things, tried taking her out more, tried retiring in tests, not retiring in tests, quiet venues, busy venues, pro's riding her, natural horsemanship trainers until in the end I retired her from competing.
Sometimes, some horses just don't like competing and I think that needs to be shared more widely and accepted
stangs
Well-Known Member
I think it’s important to keep in mind that you’re talking about horses that are genetically considerably more reactive than even other sports horses (and no I don’t think that’s a good thing, before anyone starts).
So when you see a clip like this, it doesn’t mean that the horse has previously had very negative training experiences or been beaten on the daily. It’s just that how quickly they trigger stack, the extent to which they’re able to cope with stress, and and how they express stress differs considerably to the average horse.
Many cobs would have just shut down and planted which looks a whole better on camera but doesn’t mean they’re experiencing any more or less stress than the horse in the video. (Hell, the recent research seems to suggest horses that plant experience higher levels of stress.)
Your comment comes across a bit like saying “if a Malinois bites its owner, it must have been abused because dogs only bite if they’re really unhappy.” That might be true for a lot of dogs but a Malinois is going to redirect for 1/10th of the reason that a Labrador will.
In the same way, a dressage horse of this sort of ‘elite’ breeding may go over threshold because of a minor issue in the warmup than another horse would have coped with. Of course, we don’t want them going over threshold, and yes that’s a training issue in part, but you can’t make claims based on their behaviour without considering the genetics.
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
If horses were only ever trained and worked within their emotional and physical limits, there quite simply would never be videos like this.
We can dress things up however we want, but there's no getting away from it. This video does not show a horse who feels thoroughly confident and positive about what he is doing. He therefore has some level of negativity about things which have happened to him in the past, and does not want to be in the situation we see in the video.
I don't really understand how it's possible to disagree with that?
I stand by my statement - I think it is heartbreaking to see a horse feeling this way in his life. A horse was born to be a horse.
ETA: Unless I'm mistaken, I did not claim that the horse had been beaten or similar. I don't think you have to beat a horse to make them feel negative (though of course that would). I said the video suggested to me that the horse had experienced pressurising training, and felt negative about what he had experienced/was being asked to do. Others mentioned confusion. I also think I said I felt he had been pushed physically or emotionally or both, and was exhibiting stress.
I do object to this nonsensical arguement of 'elite' horses being unlike other horses, and assumptions being made about whether people can read stress indicators in that sort of horse. A stress indicator is a stress indicator, regardless of what sort of horse is exhibiting it. If you look at the various videos on J vB-W's FB page (earlier today I searched for 'Gatsby' and there are a fair few of him) you will see him clearly exhibiting stress indicators during his work at home. Therefore, I can say with conviction that I feel he has experienced stress and negativity during training.
If, as is claimed, 'elite' horses are more likely to go over threshold than 'other' horses, then surely it just means that their stress indicators are being missed or ignored, and that in itself is leading to trigger stacking. They don't explode out of nowhere. The more positively and supportively you train a horse, the more secure they become and the less likely they are to become trigger stacked and go over threshold - because you learn to back off and work more sympathetically when they START to get stressed or confused or say 'No'. Be led by the horse and you won't go far wrong. But that's what IS going wrong - people are still not getting it.
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nikicb
Well-Known Member
Whilst I am not sure I really want to quote the page, Dressage Hub have Gatsby competing more recently with another rider. Is this for real?
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Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Yes https://www.rimondo.com/en/horse-details/1235997/great-gatsby-psWhilst I am not sure I really want to quote the page, Dressage Hub have Gatsby competing more recently with another rider. Is this for real?
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Hannah Beaulieu has a lovely photo as her FB profile pic of herself waterskiing on her horse's face, so I don't imagine things will be materially different for him going forward.
nikicb
Well-Known Member
So 9 days after he has a complete meltdown competing with one rider, who says that she will do her best to make sure he has the best possible life, he's back on the circuit. That poor poor horse.
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
I think we've got enough evidence to reasonably suspect crap/abusive training methods in addition to poor breeding choices (for extravagant movement and temperaments which cannot manage the environments these horses are being asked to work in).
stangs
Well-Known Member
He is experiencing stress. Animals cannot learn to be confident or resilient without expressing some level of stress. It’s biologically necessary and healthy. You have to take them out of their emotional comfort zone at times.
Yes, ideally you don’t want them experiencing this level of stress. Yes, there are considerably better ways of introducing stress to an animal and helping them learn to cope with it than at a competition where they’re more likely to go over threshold. No, horses don’t need to compete. Yes, the horse in this video may well be in a state of distress and therefore unable to learn. Yes, that should always be avoided - but sometimes these things happen. Surely we’ve all been on hacks where our horses have gone over threshold due to triggers we could not have planned for or predicted, and it’s all we can do to just sit tight, get home, and figure out how to address the issue another day?
Regardless, my point was just that you cannot make claims about his training - specifically “That these horses are so tense and clearly expressing negativity surely speaks volumes about how they are trained” - because you’re looking at an animal that can become very tense and reach their stress threshold far faster than the average horse. Another horse getting too close in the warm up, someone opening up an umbrella as he was passing: that’s all it might take.
Also worth keeping in mind that you’re looking at a horse that expresses stress in a way which looks really bad to us because it’s biologically abnormal - but, crucially, biologically abnormal doesn’t mean intrinsically indicative of more stress than say that experienced by a horse planting.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
So are the owners at fault here forcing him to carry on doing something he hates. Makes you wonder how much they forced the training to be rushed as well