CDJ withdrawn from paris

There are some interesting points raised in the latest Shut up and Ride podcast featuring Jason Brautigam, CEO of BD. I found it worth a listen.


ETA I have mixed feelings about JB, but I did have some correspondence with him a few years back about a retrospective rule change, and while I still don’t agree with what happened, he did take the time to respond to me personally, and I have seen him do the same on social media.
 
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Burnttoast said:
Hmmm
https://www.facebook.com/bluehorsaps/posts/pfbid02qiTnGw4kBqCkq85Xiq9pqcTVGfStgSxn4k5hJHffBYxanqKRdwybCP4qRh3KXyF6l
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I think that's a really sensible and proactive thing for them to have done?

Also potentially making a bit of a statement that as yet, not enough is being changed?

If more people/groups would do this and basically say to the governing bodies 'Sort it out!' there'd be more pressure for them to step up and actively tighten the rules on welfare and ethics?

ETA: Ahhhh, a little googling on links with Blue Hors puts this decision into a slightly different light...
 
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PurpleSpots said:
I think that's a really sensible and proactive thing for them to have done?

Also potentially making a bit of a statement that as yet, not enough is being changed?

If more people/groups would do this and basically say to the governing bodies 'Sort it out!' there'd be more pressure for them to step up and actively tighten the rules on welfare and ethics?

ETA: Ahhhh, a little googling on links with Blue Hors puts this decision into a slightly different light...
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Yes I'm not sure what to make of it but at the least there will be a few horses not in competition arenas for a while
 
OMG - a hopeful post. The FEI have linked up with Dr Andrew McClean on horse welfare.
For those who don’t know him, he work has been amazing on horse science and he is one of the major influences behind Mary Wanless and the ride with your mind philosophy and completely revolutionary if you know his work - the antithesis of the hideous gadget and rolkur school of training.
And whatever you think about RWYM it’s incredibly ethical and all about getting the horse to seek a contact, never forced.
Let’s just hope they listen and this could be the game changer.
 
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tristars said:
Rwym makes something simple complicated for me

Of course the horse should always seek the contact !??!!
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I think you are purposefully missing the point that this is a game changer in the FEI attitude.
And many people who have embraced the twiddling of the reins for a contact find it very difficult to accept their may be another way, they have invested too much time in it to have the flexibility of thinking - your post illustrated why I feel this man may have his work cut out.
 
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canteron said:
OMG - a hopeful post. The FEI have linked up with Dr Andrew McClean on horse welfare.
For those who don’t know him, he work has been amazing on horse science and he is one of the major influences behind Mary Wanless and the ride with your mind philosophy and completely revolutionary if you know his work - the antithesis of the hideous gadget and rolkur school of training.
And whatever you think about RWYM it’s incredibly ethical and all about getting the horse to seek a contact, never forced.
Let’s just hope they listen and this could be the game changer.
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Really like what I’ve heard from Andrew McLean. Some very interesting webinars on YouTube where he talks about how horses communicate and learn. I sincerely hope the FEI act on his advice, and this isn’t just a face saving operation.
 
canteron said:
OMG - a hopeful post. The FEI have linked up with Dr Andrew McClean on horse welfare.
For those who don’t know him, he work has been amazing on horse science and he is one of the major influences behind Mary Wanless and the ride with your mind philosophy and completely revolutionary if you know his work - the antithesis of the hideous gadget and rolkur school of training.
And whatever you think about RWYM it’s incredibly ethical and all about getting the horse to seek a contact, never forced.
Let’s just hope they listen and this could be the game changer.
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He's also one of the fellows of ISES (International Society for Equitation Science - an amazing organisation for promoting equine welfare and science, plus the people behind the noseband tightness gauge), so hopefully this will mean that ISES will be working more closely with the FEI in future too.
 
canteron said:
I think you are purposefully missing the point that this is a game changer in the FEI attitude.
And many people who have embraced the twiddling of the reins for a contact find it very difficult to accept their may be another way, they have invested too much time in it to have the flexibility of thinking - your post illustrated why I feel this man may have his work cut out.
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Sometimes. i just have to laugh







Nless
 
tristars said:
Rwym makes something simple complicated for me

Of course the horse should always seek the contact !??!!
Click to expand...

Whereas for me, RWYM helps makes something seem very complicated actually seem very simple whilst still putting the horse first on a physical and emotional level. Everyone is different 🙂

Just confess I've never heard of Andrew McLean but will look him up.

It does sound like things might be moving in a much healthier direction for the benefit of the horse, fingers crossed that comes to fruition 🤞
 
tristars said:
Rwym makes something simple complicated for me

Of course the horse should always seek the contact !??!!
Click to expand...


It depends on your learning style, it was like turning on an arclight for me to read the first book.

I wouldn't agree with you that a horse should always seek the contact. They don't bitless and there are many happy healthy horses ridden with no contact most of the time, it's just a different style of riding.
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RWYM actually confuses me more. I can see it would be helpful for people if that’s your particular learning style, but I find analogies unhelpful as my brain doesn’t work that way.

I do like the concept behind it, and the biomechanics elements sits well with me, but as a teaching method I couldn’t get to grips with it.
 
It depends on your learning style, it was like turning on an arclight for me to read the first k.

I wouldn't agree with you that a horse should always seek the contact. They don't bitless and there are many happy healthy horses ridden with no contact most of the time, it's just a different style of riding.
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Well when the rider requires the horse to work which is the main welfare area in question

Riding the horse from the back to the front instead of holding the front ,

Which results in blue tongues from the heavy pressure on what have turned into basically hard mouths,
The very opposite to the light and airy feel of of the horse taking the rider forwards on a genuine connection
 
tristars said:
Well when the rider requires the horse to work which is the main welfare area in question
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I'm sorry I still don't accept that a horse has to seek the contact to work. There are many horses which work, sometimes literally with cows, with little contact most of the time.

I think somehow we're talking at cross purposes and I don't understand what you're trying to say.
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ycbm said:
I'm sorry I still don't accept that a horse has to seek the contact to work. There are many horses which work, sometimes literally with cows, with little contact most of the time.

I think somehow we're talking at cross purposes and I don't understand what you're trying to say.
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You don't understand me and, I don't understand rwym








So I'll leave it there






So I'll leave it there
 
I was spectating at the Premier League today watching the Grand Prix. Some nice horses and riders but one that upset me.
I was watching the collecting ring and one rider pony club kicked the horse with her spurs so hard it cringed and grunted, to get it to go forward from piaffe, to either trot or passage 🙁. When the same horse was in the arena it did not look right behind, lifting a leg in a way a bit like stringhalt with a strange jerk in the hock. I'd never seen anything quite like it but it didn't look sound and I didn't blame it for not wanting to spring forward from the piaffe.
At least the horse didn't come in the top 10 places.
 
Gloi said:
I was spectating at the Premier League today watching the Grand Prix. Some nice horses and riders but one that upset me.
I was watching the collecting ring and one rider pony clI bet the steward didnub kicked the horse with her spurs so hard it cringed and grunted, to get it to go forward from piaffe, to either trot or passage 🙁. When the same horse was in the arena it did not look right behind, lifting a leg in a way a bit like stringhalt with a strange jerk in the hock. I'd never seen anything quite like it but it didn't look sound and I didn't blame it for not wanting to spring forward from the piaffe.
At least the horse didn't come in the top 10 places.
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Very upsetting. Given the current standards I am surprised it didn't win.I bet the stewards didn't see a thing.
 
This post is to share another person who rides without a bridle and does higher level dressage moves (the bay in the video has competed to Inter 1 after starting out as a very troubled horse), in this video without a bridle in a pressured environment.

I would so rather see this sort of thing (especially seeing the horses have the genuine ability to exhibit stress, leave, and return calmer which they show!) because this shows the actual, natural, heart, mind and movement of a horse. Not that which is seen so often in the current dressage arenas. I think so many are so obsessed with control that they've forgotten - or didn't even ever know - what a horse naturally does, and how they need to react to stress in order to feel better. I mean it's better if they're never stressed to the extent that they feel they need to leave, but inevitably it will happen if the situation is too triggering.

The mare doesn't compete bridleless as she can't under current rules, but she can and does do all the moves required in a test without a bridle in training. If everyone had to show they can train the moves without a bridle at home that would create a massive shift towards better horsemanship and ethical training I think - perhaps a team of assessors could travel around larger yards, or it could be done via video submission before the rider/horse combination was cleared to compete at that level or something.

I don't think it's reasonable or safe to expect all people to suddenly compete without bridles, but if they had to show they could train that way at home before tackling the next level at a competition it would create such a positive shift for the horse I think.

(There are lots of other videos and posts on this person's page which can be found following the link, but this one in particular is in a pressured environment which was something discussed further up this thread.)

www.facebook.com

533K views · 26K reactions | Freedom is not found in getting everything right. It’s in the freedom to be ourselves, to let go of fear, and to live with joy and inner peace ❤ During my show in Herning, I did (and did not do) things I would do differ

Freedom is not found in getting everything right. It’s in the freedom to be ourselves, to let go of fear, and to live with joy and inner peace ❤ During my show in Herning, I did (and did not do)...
www.facebook.com www.facebook.com
 
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PurpleSpots said:
This post is to share another person who rides without a bridle and does higher level dressage moves (the bay in the video has competed to Inter 1 after starting out as a very troubled horse), in this video without a bridle in a pressured environment.

I would so rather see this sort of thing (especially seeing the horses have the genuine ability to exhibit stress, leave, and return calmer which they show!) because this shows the actual, natural, heart, mind and movement of a horse. Not that which is seen so often in the current dressage arenas. I think so many are so obsessed with control that they've forgotten - or didn't even ever know - what a horse naturally does, and how they need to react to stress in order to feel better. I mean it's better if they're never stressed to the extent that they feel they need to leave, but inevitably it will happen if the situation is too triggering.

The mare doesn't compete bridleless as she can't under current rules, but she can and does do all the moves required in a test without a bridle in training. If everyone had to show they can train the moves without a bridle at home that would create a massive shift towards better horsemanship and ethical training I think - perhaps a team of assessors could travel around larger yards, or it could be done via video submission before the rider/horse combination was cleared to compete at that level or something.

I don't think it's reasonable or safe to expect all people to suddenly compete without bridles, but if they had to show they could train that way at home before tackling the next level at a competition it would create such a positive shift for the horse I think.

(There are lots of other videos and posts on this person's page which can be found following the link, but this one in particular is in a pressured environment which was something discussed further up this thread.)

www.facebook.com

533K views · 26K reactions | Freedom is not found in getting everything right. It’s in the freedom to be ourselves, to let go of fear, and to live with joy and inner peace ❤ During my show in Herning, I did (and did not do) things I would do differ

Freedom is not found in getting everything right. It’s in the freedom to be ourselves, to let go of fear, and to live with joy and inner peace ❤ During my show in Herning, I did (and did not do)...
www.facebook.com www.facebook.com
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I’ve become more aware of my boys “ok to proceed” signal. When we are doing groundwork he will disengage from me when he needs a break. He does this by looking off into the distance and basically not engaging with me. When he’s ready to continue he comes ‘back into the room’ and we carry on.
I’ve not been able to identify this signal in ridden work though.
 
PurpleSpots said:
I would so rather see this sort of thing (especially seeing the horses have the genuine ability to exhibit stress, leave, and return calmer which they show!) because this shows the actual, natural, heart, mind and movement of a horse.
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I find this comment interesting in relation to the video you've attached where the horses show some pretty strong signs of stress and frustration, most notably kicking out in the direction of the handler. That is a very loud 'no' - even if the horses return to her later, why would you celebrate the horse having to resort to such a loud 'no' instead of simply opting out?

The irony is that this sort of stress signal gets commended whilst a dressage horse spooking, which is also a reaction to stress to feel better by satisfying that flight need, gets their rider slated for their cruelty. People's perception of equine stress is heavily biased by their perception of there being a "bond" (or just by the lack of tack), but that doesn't mean that the horse with tack is inherently experiencing higher levels of stress.

PurpleSpots said:
but if they had to show they could train that way at home before tackling the next level at a competition it would create such a positive shift for the horse I think.
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Again, be wary of conflating minimal tack with horse-friendly training. You don’t need to train ethically to get a horse to work bridleless - learned helplessness can achieve the same result. Circuses weren't generally training horses ethically, and they still managed it. And a lot of liberty acts today also aren't based on ethical or horse-focused training methods, and yet there the horses are, working without anything on them and often showing considerably more conflict signals than a horse in full tack.

Or if we return to your Feather Light Horsemanship video: the bay goes very BTV in the piaffe. Does the fact that she's bridleless mean that this should be celebrated over the piaffe of a horse who piaffes correctly with their head in front of the vertical, able to see in front of themselves, but who's wearing a bridle?

I think there's a lot of work the sport could do to overall reduce equine stress - for example, allowing familiar horses in the arena during the test like they do for para horses; more competitions focused on providing opportunities to train for and promote relaxation (loath as I am to compliment anything TRT related, Tristan's potentially started something very interesting with his latest competition idea); and obviously a bigger expectation that yards provide turnout, particularly the big continental yards, which would lower horses' baseline stress levels.

But the focus needs to be on what empirically improves equine welfare, not just what looks better to the human eye. And I worry that the "bridleless/tackless better" mindset is being promoted more for ideological reasons than because it would actually benefit the horses.
 
stangs said:
I find this comment interesting in relation to the video you've attached where the horses show some pretty strong signs of stress and frustration, most notably kicking out in the direction of the handler. That is a very loud 'no' - even if the horses return to her later, why would you celebrate the horse having to resort to such a loud 'no' instead of simply opting out?

The irony is that this sort of stress signal gets commended whilst a dressage horse spooking, which is also a reaction to stress to feel better by satisfying that flight need, gets their rider slated for their cruelty. People's perception of equine stress is heavily biased by their perception of there being a "bond" (or just by the lack of tack), but that doesn't mean that the horse with tack is inherently experiencing higher levels of stress.


Again, be wary of conflating minimal tack with horse-friendly training. You don’t need to train ethically to get a horse to work bridleless - learned helplessness can achieve the same result. Circuses weren't generally training horses ethically, and they still managed it. And a lot of liberty acts today also aren't based on ethical or horse-focused training methods, and yet there the horses are, working without anything on them and often showing considerably more conflict signals than a horse in full tack.

Or if we return to your Feather Light Horsemanship video: the bay goes very BTV in the piaffe. Does the fact that she's bridleless mean that this should be celebrated over the piaffe of a horse who piaffes correctly with their head in front of the vertical, able to see in front of themselves, but who's wearing a bridle?

I think there's a lot of work the sport could do to overall reduce equine stress - for example, allowing familiar horses in the arena during the test like they do for para horses; more competitions focused on providing opportunities to train for and promote relaxation (loath as I am to compliment anything TRT related, Tristan's potentially started something very interesting with his latest competition idea); and obviously a bigger expectation that yards provide turnout, particularly the big continental yards, which would lower horses' baseline stress levels.

But the focus needs to be on what empirically improves equine welfare, not just what looks better to the human eye. And I worry that the "bridleless/tackless better" mindset is being promoted more for ideological reasons than because it would actually benefit the horses.
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I totally agree with you. The video posted is circus tricks IMO. For example, that is not a correct piaffe, it shows the horse jammed on the forehand with no engagement- it will be actively harming the horse, not doing what classical dressage is aiming for in demonstrating ultimate collection, lightness and balance.
 
TheMule said:
I totally agree with you. The video posted is circus tricks IMO. For example, that is not a correct piaffe, it shows the horse jammed on the forehand with no engagement- it will be actively harming the horse, not doing what classical dressage is aiming for in demonstrating ultimate collection, lightness and balance.
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I don’t know enough to comment on the piaffe and you may well be right that that is mostly circus tricks.IMHO it is nicer to watch than a lot of top class dressage though and at least there are no blue tongues.
 
I was once on a yard with somone who did liberty with their horse. To anyone looking from a distance, they might think that she had a willing partner, but the trainer sure liked to hit the horse when they didn't comply, as I witnessed several times. What I saw was a shut down equine who was dead behind the eyes. Tackless certainly doesn't automatically equal consent and freedom.

I've never been a fan of the Featherlight Horsemanship person because of training videos where they appeared to be using flooding, but all of the tackless videos impress people too much to see the stress signals.

I hate all of the tack and gadgets used in high end dressage, but agree that there needs to be a consideration as to how someone gets to point X, not just the equipment being used on the day (which is still important and relevant) but the whole bigger picture of what their life and training looks like.

E.g. A horse could be ridden bridleless, but that could have still been achieved with harsh corrections whilst the horse is living in a stable with minimal turnout.

Bridleless can give the illusion of willingness, consent and freedom when the reality is far from it.

But imho, most people who want to put their horses needs first would get no-where near to high end competition, because it is much more for the benefit and ego of the human than anything else in the majority of cases. No horse dreams of winning trophies and rosettes, nor going through the stress of flying halfway across the world for a crowd of people to watch them in a high-stress environment.
 
ycbm said:
I agree with this but I do wish the buckskin looked happier about life.
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If you go to her Instagram page, you will see that see was not happy with her performance. She asked too much of her horses, but felt the pressure of "performing". She said she wouldn't do anything like this again, because she doesn't feel the need to put her horses under this amount of stress.
 
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