CDJ withdrawn from paris

bonny said:
And just have everyone else wait and hope for the best ?
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tristars said:
Ban it and be done !
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Yep, time limit for the jockey alone to ride the horse into the stalls, and obviously no (excessive I guess, if we have to) use of the whip to make sure that horses are reasonably willing. Why on earth are we physically manhandling any horses do to anything for our financial pleasure?
 
Janique said:
I think, it's rubbish...

The fact of needing a job...

Also, travelling round the world in planes, jumping during the night enormous fences, rarely seeing grass,
yes probably, some horses might even buy their own planes tickets if they could...

People are saying that, so they feel less guilty abusing them...
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I don’t know. Mine is very grumpy when not ridden even if he has plenty of turnout with friends. He’s naturally curious and I believe he likes to learn new things, so enjoys his work & he really does have a fantastic work ethic. He is really the only horse I’ve ridden who has felt like this though and I suppose he could learn things on the ground if I was more competent in that respect.
 
On a different point, it’s not uncommon for competitors going SJ or XC to raise their hands and retire if it’s not going well. Perhaps we need to normalise this in dressage instead of forcing an unhappy horse? Sometimes it just isn’t your day and it’s better to retire with grace and save them for another occasion.
 
ramsaybailey said:
Your question suggests you approve of horses being forced in?
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Many have the mentality that something HAS to be achieved, the horse doesn't get a say, and the people don't seem to care how they get to the outcome they want.

The horse is there to provide a service for the humans, and if they don't then they are in the wrong and must be made to deliver that service, because that is their purpose.

It's all just so horrible :( .
 
PurpleSpots said:
Many have the mentality that something HAS to be achieved, the horse doesn't get a say, and the people don't seem to care how they get to the outcome they want.

The horse is there to provide a service for the humans, and if they don't then they are in the wrong and must be made to deliver that service, because that is their purpose.

It's all just so horrible :( .
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So very very sad
 
I'm Dun said:
theres literally nothing that would be an issue with an ethics board 🤷‍♀️
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? I was referring to the likelihood of the FEI demanding proof that spur damage looked a certain way on thermal scanning, and the likelihood of being allowed to do a study that recreated such damage on actual horses to find out what it looked like in that scenario. They spend a lot of time deflecting by saying there's no proof things hurt horses (blue tongues being the most obvious example) and that more research must be done.
 
rhino said:
It is one of the ongoing FEI research priorities. As you can see it should be in ‘Phase 3’ at the moment.

EW - Ongoing Research

inside.fei.org inside.fei.org
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That seems to relate to lesions, rather than ischemia, although it wouldn't be surprising if the two go together. There was a long thread on David Marlin's page too where he was saying we needed research to determine if a blue tongue is painful. The director of elite sport at the Danish federation said there isn't sufficient evidence to show whether discoloration means discomfort and then there was some nonsense about peripheral cyanosis in human athletes.
 
sbloom said:
Change the rules so horses can't be dragged into the starting stalls?
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If they refuse too strongly, they are usually withdrawn and if they continue to refuse they can be banned from racing where they are started from stalls. We had one in the yard I worked at and she ended up being suspended pending a successful stalls test. She passed and went back racing. Her problem came down to being rushed before she had stalls figured out. There is too much of that rushing in training in general. With too much pressure, too little release and the horse doesn't get a chance to find the right answer.

Short cuts don't work long term in training.
 
Burnttoast said:
That seems to relate to lesions, rather than ischemia, although it wouldn't be surprising if the two go together. There was a long thread on David Marlin's page too where he was saying we needed research to determine if a blue tongue is painful. The director of elite sport at the Danish federation said there isn't sufficient evidence to show whether discoloration means discomfort and then there was some nonsense about peripheral cyanosis in human athletes.
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That's one of the things that gets me cross! Does it matter if it's painful or not? Tongues should not be blue in a healthy horse! There is compression of the blood vessels for long enough to stop blood flow and starve tissues of oxygen. What are these people on where they think this is an ok thing to do to an animal for 'sport' until research is done to see if it's painful or not?

Ok, dressage fans - Tongues are not supposed to be blue in a healthy horse. It doesn't matter what level people who agree with this are competing at, it doesn't matter whether it hurts or not, it doesn't matter if it's 'a moment in time'.... They're NOT SUPPOSED TO BE BLUE. EVER!


Right, I'm off to the kitchen for a beer. Back in ten.
 
Beausmate said:
That's one of the things that gets me cross! Does it matter if it's painful or not? Tongues should not be blue in a healthy horse! There is compression of the blood vessels for long enough to stop blood flow and starve tissues of oxygen. What are these people on where they think this is an ok thing to do to an animal for 'sport' until research is done to see if it's painful or not?

Ok, dressage fans - Tongues are not supposed to be blue in a healthy horse. It doesn't matter what level people who agree with this are competing at, it doesn't matter whether it hurts or not, it doesn't matter if it's 'a moment in time'.... They're NOT SUPPOSED TO BE BLUE. EVER!


Right, I'm off to the kitchen for a beer. Back in ten.
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I thought this! Blue is wrong. I'm yet to see a blue tongue at amateur levels / riding club / fun rides and I'm pretty sure the organisers at any event would be horrified
 
SEL said:
I thought this! Blue is wrong. I'm yet to see a blue tongue at amateur levels / riding club / fun rides and I'm pretty sure the organisers at any event would be horrified
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Yup. I'm sure that anyone officiating at an event for the clueless, amateur, never-competed-at-high-level bods out there would have something pretty negative to say about certain parts of a horse not being a normal colour for that part of a horse.

It's OK to cause harm to your horse if you are at a sufficient level to win great accolades. It's bad riding for lower levels and elite training for upper levels. Is that how it works?
 
SEL said:
I thought this! Blue is wrong. I'm yet to see a blue tongue at amateur levels / riding club / fun rides and I'm pretty sure the organisers at any event would be horrified
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A friend I believe unconditionally has. The person involved is taking lessons from a local "dressage producer" who has very hard hands himself, and she didn't need encouragement to be harder on her horses to begin with. The horse is dominant, the horse is lazy, the horse is a stubborn brute who everyone is too nice to and that's why she won't perform. Its been a disgusting but enlightening journey to witness now she has found a pro to agree with her.
 
Ok, to be fair, there is a reason scientists have been sceptical about blue tongues. It not necessarily doubt about blue tongues being bad per se, but about being able to even accurately measure.

I’m aware of a researcher who tried to collaborate with one of the most vocal togs who was taking and sharing blue tongue photos at dressage. When attempting to quantify the blue in a tongue using software, it was noted that the ratio of blue was actually impossible to distinguish objectively in these horses, and that many of the photos seemed to have different overall blue ratios than normal. It was implied that these photos had been manipulated. The tog refused to provide raws. As far as I’m aware, attempts to independently collect blue tongue images for study have proved difficult.

To be clear, I am of the opinion that a blue tongue in an equine athlete is a sign of poor welfare. But we need to be able to objectively measure and quantify this to a) work out how widespread it is and b) associate it with potential causal factors like noseband tightness, behavioural ethograms showing tension/conflict behaviours etc.

But I’m aware of some doubt about some of the evidence being put forward - having not done this analysis myself, but being told by a researcher I respect.
 
khalswitz said:
Ok, to be fair, there is a reason scientists have been sceptical about blue tongues. It not necessarily doubt about blue tongues being bad per se, but about being able to even accurately measure.

I’m aware of a researcher who tried to collaborate with one of the most vocal togs who was taking and sharing blue tongue photos at dressage. When attempting to quantify the blue in a tongue using software, it was noted that the ratio of blue was actually impossible to distinguish objectively in these horses, and that many of the photos seemed to have different overall blue ratios than normal. It was implied that these photos had been manipulated. The tog refused to provide raws. As far as I’m aware, attempts to independently collect blue tongue images for study have proved difficult.

To be clear, I am of the opinion that a blue tongue in an equine athlete is a sign of poor welfare. But we need to be able to objectively measure and quantify this to a) work out how widespread it is and b) associate it with potential causal factors like noseband tightness, behavioural ethograms showing tension/conflict behaviours etc.

But I’m aware of some doubt about some of the evidence being put forward - having not done this analysis myself, but being told by a researcher I respect.
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That is an interesting post.
 
Burnttoast said:
? I was referring to the likelihood of the FEI demanding proof that spur damage looked a certain way on thermal scanning, and the likelihood of being allowed to do a study that recreated such damage on actual horses to find out what it looked like in that scenario. They spend a lot of time deflecting by saying there's no proof things hurt horses (blue tongues being the most obvious example) and that more research must be done.
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you wouldnt need to recreate it to prove it. Proving it would be incredibly easy. But theres no money for research like that, especially not when it would be actively opposed.
 
Beausmate said:
Yup. I'm sure that anyone officiating at an event for the clueless, amateur, never-competed-at-high-level bods out there would have something pretty negative to say about certain parts of a horse not being a normal colour for that part of a horse.

It's OK to cause harm to your horse if you are at a sufficient level to win great accolades. It's bad riding for lower levels and elite training for upper levels. Is that how it works?
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This has been the trouble all along, if any of us rode like the top riders do we would end up being banned again if we didn’t improve. CDJ was banned and doesn’t seem to have changed. Maybe it’s because she sees the others riding the same way and not being banned, some of them seem to have a lot of power especially IW. I’ve said before if the judges reward forceful riding with no harmony then the riders will continue to ignore the rules.. I always loved Classic Briolinca and Gareth Hughes but he didn’t stand a chance with the big moving flashy horses. His test were harmonious and IMO more correct and I enjoyed watching him but not most of the others
 
Beausmate said:
It's OK to cause harm to your horse if you are at a sufficient level to win great accolades. It's bad riding for lower levels and elite training for upper levels. Is that how it works?
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Taking it wider than tongues, I think there’s certainly a shift somewhere along the lines when whatever is happening - dressage, eventing, sj, heck even centres of various kinds - become business. It’s like the corners start being cut because costs are involved, and the stakes are higher, and it’s apparently ok?

Caveat - not everyone obviously.
 
khalswitz said:
Ok, to be fair, there is a reason scientists have been sceptical about blue tongues. It not necessarily doubt about blue tongues being bad per se, but about being able to even accurately measure.

I’m aware of a researcher who tried to collaborate with one of the most vocal togs who was taking and sharing blue tongue photos at dressage. When attempting to quantify the blue in a tongue using software, it was noted that the ratio of blue was actually impossible to distinguish objectively in these horses, and that many of the photos seemed to have different overall blue ratios than normal. It was implied that these photos had been manipulated. The tog refused to provide raws. As far as I’m aware, attempts to independently collect blue tongue images for study have proved difficult.

To be clear, I am of the opinion that a blue tongue in an equine athlete is a sign of poor welfare. But we need to be able to objectively measure and quantify this to a) work out how widespread it is and b) associate it with potential causal factors like noseband tightness, behavioural ethograms showing tension/conflict behaviours etc.

But I’m aware of some doubt about some of the evidence being put forward - having not done this analysis myself, but being told by a researcher I respect.
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Photographs can most certainly distort colour (unintentionally) so if the photographer won't present the RAW files for review that is a problem and they can't be relied on as "evidence"
 
khalswitz said:
Ok, to be fair, there is a reason scientists have been sceptical about blue tongues. It not necessarily doubt about blue tongues being bad per se, but about being able to even accurately measure.

I’m aware of a researcher who tried to collaborate with one of the most vocal togs who was taking and sharing blue tongue photos at dressage. When attempting to quantify the blue in a tongue using software, it was noted that the ratio of blue was actually impossible to distinguish objectively in these horses, and that many of the photos seemed to have different overall blue ratios than normal. It was implied that these photos had been manipulated. The tog refused to provide raws. As far as I’m aware, attempts to independently collect blue tongue images for study have proved difficult.

To be clear, I am of the opinion that a blue tongue in an equine athlete is a sign of poor welfare. But we need to be able to objectively measure and quantify this to a) work out how widespread it is and b) associate it with potential causal factors like noseband tightness, behavioural ethograms showing tension/conflict behaviours etc.

But I’m aware of some doubt about some of the evidence being put forward - having not done this analysis myself, but being told by a researcher I respect.
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Failing to provide raw images is a problem but most of us who are trying to make a judgement with the evidence available to us, and are not necessarily in a position to obtain or analyse those images, can also rely on other evidence that suggests that the horse is experiencing discomfort (unless we are going to suppose that all photos showing welfare issues are doctored), such as gaping mouths, contorted tongues (visibly deformed by the bit, pulled backwards/upwards, flopping out of the mouth, bulging between the teeth - let's remember that the tongue should not even be visible in a well-ridden horse), difference in colour between the tongue above and below the bit and the mucosa, and foam. Most of these are frequently seen in conjunction with blue tongues, excessive spur use, etc.

More research is always good, but calling for more research in an attempt to delay or subvert changes that clearly need to be made is just disingenuous, and the FEI is a master at deflecting in this way.
 
Surely turning blue means cutting of the oxygen supply

The fact it is so visible because the horse actively opens it mouth and therefore we can see it could be a small hint

A horses tongue should not be blue

The mouth is open cos if it wasnt we would not know the tongue is blue

The tongue should not be blue, the mouth should not be open
 
tristars said:
Surely turning blue means cutting of the oxygen supply

The fact it is so visible because the horse actively opens it mouth and therefore we can see it could be a small hint

A horses tongue should not be blue

The mouth is open cos if it wasnt we would not know the tongue is blue

The tongue should not be blue, the mouth should not be open
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I believe the anti argument is that the photos may not be picking up the real colour of the tongue. Which I understand. But for those stewards on site a bit / bridle check should cover the mouth - so hardly impossible for the FEI to put something in place.
 
SEL said:
I believe the anti argument is that the photos may not be picking up the real colour of the tongue. Which I understand. But for those stewards on site a bit / bridle check should cover the mouth - so hardly impossible for the FEI to put something in place.
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How does that argument work when the colour of the tongue may not be 'accurately' rendered but it still clearly differs from the mucosa or even more pertinently the colour of the tongue above the bit, where visible. Frankly the idea that we are ever able to see the tongue above the bit demonstrates how ridiculous this whole argument (everywhere, not on this thread) is becoming - things have already gone very badly wrong when this is the case regardless of whether the tongue is blue, orange or green.
 
Burnttoast said:
How does that argument work when the colour of the tongue may not be 'accurately' rendered but it still clearly differs from the mucosa or even more pertinently the colour of the tongue above the bit, where visible. Frankly the idea that we are ever able to see the tongue above the bit demonstrates how ridiculous this whole argument (everywhere, not on this thread) is becoming - things have already gone very badly wrong when this is the case regardless of whether the tongue is blue, orange or green.
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I was going to say this too, if you're at the point where the tongue is blue there is no way on this good green earth that there aren't myriad other conflict behaviours happening. The point of intervention should be WELL BEFORE circulation is cut off to the tongue. Missing the forest for the trees really.
 
Here are some quite astonishing oral (and other) conflict behaviours very recently from a horse that's clearly struggling on multiple fronts. At the beginning, the mouth is gaping even when the reins are given entirely for significant periods. Strikes me as a complete rejection by this poor horse of what he's being expected to do.
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