Cesar Milan

I love the way he grits his teeth and says 'suntines' instead of sometimes. :o I'm a shallow cow, but I defy anyone to learn a new language then present show using that language. Yeah, I'm weird, I study how he speaks cos I'm a language teacher.

I like some of his methods, a lot of them, actually, although I'm not sure I like the whole dominance thing. The OH tried it briefly with Zak, who reacted badly and went all submissive. He's now fine, I'd never let the OH try that again. :(
 
As with anything, if someone is successful then they are going to be decried.

CM was actually known for training Rottweilers to a very hgh standard for protection way before he was TV famous.

The one thing that good trainers all have is that they are confident in their abilities to achieve what they want. This passes through to the animal and that, in my opinion, is well over 90% of the 'battle' won. By keeping calm and not allowing your heart rate to change passes through be it, horse, dog or child.

I was impressed with Monty Rpberts when he first came over here but now you would have to pay me a lot of money to go see him. With fame comes more and more commercialism and, he is not all that he seems.

I never got to see CM when he was here but his methods are effective and he achieves results faster then most.

As with all - it is rarely the animals fault, more the humans.
 
A good post Foxhunter.

Not only with dog training, but in many other aspects of life, it never fails to surprise me, how so many have success (on this occasion with dogs), with perhaps 2 or 3, and then sit in judgement of those who have experience, running into the hundreds. Before we can speak with experience, then we need to make, and correct our many mistakes.

Milan is a first class dog man. I've watched him, admittedly only on the telly, and I've seen him do things, and approach problems, as I wouldn't. That doesn't make the man wrong, it's just that I would face the task from a different direction. Whilst I might question, I most certainly wouldn't contradict him.

Short of it being our full time work, I do just wonder how many, who are so young, can have acquired a degree of experience which would entitle them to contradict him.

It isn't my intention to ruffle anyones feathers, but theory and experience, are all so often poles apart.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
A good post Foxhunter.

Not only with dog training, but in many other aspects of life, it never fails to surprise me, how so many have success (on this occasion with dogs), with perhaps 2 or 3, and then sit in judgement of those who have experience, running into the hundreds. Before we can speak with experience, then we need to make, and correct our many mistakes.

Milan is a first class dog man. I've watched him, admittedly only on the telly, and I've seen him do things, and approach problems, as I wouldn't. That doesn't make the man wrong, it's just that I would face the task from a different direction. Whilst I might question, I most certainly wouldn't contradict him.

Short of it being our full time work, I do just wonder how many, who are so young, can have acquired a degree of experience which would entitle them to contradict him.

It isn't my intention to ruffle anyones feathers, but theory and experience, are all so often poles apart.

Alec.
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You are right Alec I have not worked with 100's of dogs, I'm just someone who has bothered to look into modern, humane training techniques to help my fear aggressive dog. However, the organisations who put their name to that statement I posted are extremely experienced, deal with aggressive dogs every day and still don't resort to bullying a dog to stop it being fearful.

Positive, reward based training is not about constantly stuffing food into the dog's mouth, its not about letting the dog do whatever it feels like. Its about training the dog using a method it understands, its about giving the dog an alternative behaviour instead of just punishing it for doing what is perceived to be wrong. My dogs have boundaries, they are not my children, they also want to be with me, trust me and are not worried about me suddenly kicking/poking them for being worried about something.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
As with anything, if someone is successful then they are going to be decried.

CM was actually known for training Rottweilers to a very hgh standard for protection way before he was TV famous.

The one thing that good trainers all have is that they are confident in their abilities to achieve what they want. This passes through to the animal and that, in my opinion, is well over 90% of the 'battle' won. By keeping calm and not allowing your heart rate to change passes through be it, horse, dog or child.

I was impressed with Monty Rpberts when he first came over here but now you would have to pay me a lot of money to go see him. With fame comes more and more commercialism and, he is not all that he seems.

I never got to see CM when he was here but his methods are effective and he achieves results faster then most.

As with all - it is rarely the animals fault, more the humans.
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100% agree.
 
Teaselmeg, you know what to do with a fear aggressive gazehound and I applaud you for doing the best for her (I remember the methods you were talking about and indeed I ended up incorporating some of them in my own training).
But some dogs are not going to respond to the same methods you use on a fear aggressive gazehound.

So, a question to EVERYONE, the positive only people, the positive (but are prepared to use compulsion) people and the yank and crank people.
That husky x - it's coming for you, right at your upper body. It's got a handle, either a collar or a lead. You have a couple of seconds to act and there is no one close enough to help.
What do you do? I'd be interested to know.
 
CaveCanem said:
That husky x - it's coming for you, right at your upper body. It's got a handle, either a collar or a lead. You have a couple of seconds to act and there is no one close enough to help.
What do you do? I'd be interested to know.
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I'd stand my ground and whilst remaining calm try to make myself look bigger than I am. If I don't get excited, nervous or upset the dog shouldn't have that opportunity to treat me as prey. Same as you would do with horses.
 
Teaselmeg said:
How is that petty bitchy sniping for goodness sake !! Yes I know that CM does not say he is a 'mystical dog trainer' but he does call himself the 'Dog Whisperer' !!! I believe that cartoon was designed to show people what is behind his big smile and inaccurate interpretation of what is shown on his show.
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how is a daft cartoon with teddy bear heads and made up dialogue an accurate interpretation of anything?
 
CaveCanem said:
That husky x - it's coming for you, right at your upper body. It's got a handle, either a collar or a lead. You have a couple of seconds to act and there is no one close enough to help.
What do you do? I'd be interested to know.
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im probably not the right person to ask here CC, id probably cry. :D
 
Alec Swan said:
A good post Foxhunter.

Not only with dog training, but in many other aspects of life, it never fails to surprise me, how so many have success (on this occasion with dogs), with perhaps 2 or 3, and then sit in judgement of those who have experience, running into the hundreds. Before we can speak with experience, then we need to make, and correct our many mistakes.

Milan is a first class dog man. I've watched him, admittedly only on the telly, and I've seen him do things, and approach problems, as I wouldn't. That doesn't make the man wrong, it's just that I would face the task from a different direction. Whilst I might question, I most certainly wouldn't contradict him.

Short of it being our full time work, I do just wonder how many, who are so young, can have acquired a degree of experience which would entitle them to contradict him.

It isn't my intention to ruffle anyones feathers, but theory and experience, are all so often poles apart.

Alec.
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For me its not just about experience its about results. While you may see results at the end of a show (while many experienced people just see a shut down dog).
Have you watched the follow up series that was broadcast here? A huge amount of the dogs from the show went on to be PTS or passed on.
They are like ticking time bombs.
I don't think he reads dogs well. Someone that does would react before the dog has a chance to even react. Even me from the other side of a TV screen can see the dogs whole body change and yet he doesn't react until the dog is in the "red zone". Thats not reading a dog well.

Frankly anyone who uses his methods is either an idiot or someone who has no grasp of learning laws and dogs.

Whilst i may not have as much experience as some i have a heck of a lot more than most and i continue to push my education in the dog world day after day after day and you will find the best trainers in the world do as well they don't harp on outdated, debunked theories.
 
CaveCanem said:
Teaselmeg, you know what to do with a fear aggressive gazehound and I applaud you for doing the best for her (I remember the methods you were talking about and indeed I ended up incorporating some of them in my own training).
But some dogs are not going to respond to the same methods you use on a fear aggressive gazehound.

So, a question to EVERYONE, the positive only people, the positive (but are prepared to use compulsion) people and the yank and crank people.
That husky x - it's coming for you, right at your upper body. It's got a handle, either a collar or a lead. You have a couple of seconds to act and there is no one close enough to help.
What do you do? I'd be interested to know.
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As i side note i don't think there is such thing as positive only.

I don't think he did much wrong in protecting himself from that dog that clip shows really nothing of his "training"
All of the clips of him kicking dogs (not just his foot touch) stringing dogs up that are not being aggressive towards him (the bulldog comes to mind, since PTS) dogs that are throwing mountains worth of calming signals left right and center that he continues to pressure into a reaction. Thats not training.

I also don't buy into the whole "he deals with aggressive cases no one else will".
Do some research into some wonderful behaviorist along the lines of McDevitt and look at the cases she takes on it makes his cases looked like babies.
 
I did not say 'he deals with aggressive cases no one else will'?
I'm trying to say that not everyone who uses compulsion or not everyone who thinks that *some* of CM's methods and his message might be useful in some cases, is a bullying dog abuser, which is often the insinuation.
Or indeed, an idiot.
 
KLH as another side note, I know you've worked with pits a lot.
If a pit is in the red zone, what are the methods you use?
I am not being snarky, I am genuinely interested.
I appreciate the ideal scenario is to spot the warning signs and not let the dog get to that stage in the first place, but in this situation, it's too late, you're on hand to help - what happens?
 
CaveCanem said:
I did not say 'he deals with aggressive cases no one else will'?
I'm trying to say that not everyone who uses compulsion or not everyone who thinks that *some* of CM's methods and his message might be useful in some cases, is a bullying dog abuser, which is often the insinuation.
Or indeed, an idiot.
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No you did not just a couple of people before you did (i have no idea how to multi quote)

I think some of his messages are useful, Exercise, boundaries etc

However i have not seen any training techniques that are useful.
 
CaveCanem said:
KLH as another side note, I know you've worked with pits a lot.
If a pit is in the red zone, what are the methods you use?
I am not being snarky, I am genuinely interested.
I appreciate the ideal scenario is to spot the warning signs and not let the dog get to that stage in the first place, but in this situation, it's too late, you're on hand to help - what happens?
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Give me more situational info? What is the dog doing "in the red zone" what is he going after. I think its hard to say what i would do unless i have a whole situation.

If the dog was going after me? I would have no problem doing something similar to the husky to protect myself. However that is not a training technique that is just self preservation and as i have said i have no issue with that.
 
Well, as you explained in your previous post re the husky, let's assume he is going after another dog then. Fixated, locked on, in drive. Not scared or insecure. Having a proper go.
(I realised after typing that, that these days I always reply to questions like that in the same way as you did, I don't know, I didn't see, I wasn't there and this one hasn't even happened :o)
 
I shall post my blog posts of "scary" the latest shelter pit i have worked with and it gives a full step by step run down of what i did with him.

Going to the airport back in a while. Maybe tomorrow for you.
 
Not all, but most dogs, want to be man's servant. The real trick is to find the key, and as I'm getting ever older, I'm becoming a little better at recognising it! :o

I have a friend who uses a clicker training thing, and a little bag of treats. Now that filled me with horror, and she drove me to distraction, BUT she finds that it works, which is good enough.

I generally try to get inside the dogs head, by other means. I have a broadly based system which works on how I am, as a person, but it's open to constant alteration! With the possible exception of when I've laid a track for a difficult dog, I never use food as an inducement. I never use training aids, I want the dog to listen to me, because he wants to. That doesn't mean that I'm right, and others are wrong, it's what I find works best.

There is no simple system which works for all dogs, and all situations. I've watched some very good and experienced trainers, and the more experienced seem to approach different dogs from differing directions.

Teaselmeg, you seem to have made real progress. You seem to have found the, or your, key. Well done. The trick is to do what works!! The most difficult dogs can all so often, be the most rewarding, but all so often, it takes daily maintenance, and sometimes forever, it seems!!

Alec.
 
Sometimes people put stuff on the web, and people do it because they read about it on the internet, and that isn't always the wisest thing to do, was what I meant by my PM comment :p

Thanks for the reply :)

I wouldn't do anything because I have never dealt with a real pit, which is why I asked :p but as with my own dog, I had to learn how to read him and his reactions and his triggers and his warning signs. Once that was done, it was a lot easier to control.
He was insecure and feeding off me.
As mentioned before, when the dog is mid frenzy, it is too late and all that can be done is to remove the dog as calmly and quickly as possible.

I have spoken about BAT via PM with a couple of users but have never seen it done in practise or in person.

Oh and I really am going to bed now, I promise :p
But here's the thing I don't like about X is right and Y is wrong.
People want to do what is best for their dog.

Person A is told that they need to be very firm and make the dog do as it is told, he doesn't need incentives, he should just DO it and RESPECT the owner and know his place because any other way is weak and wimpy.
The dog is not strong enough and breaks down and is asked to leave the class because it is not responding or progressing and the owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Person B is told that they must only ever use positive methods, never have to raise their voice or use a control collar - humane harnesses only - of any sort or say the word 'no' because any other way is cruel.
The dog is too strong for this and it is not responding or progressing, they are asked to leave the class.
The owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Both of these stories are true.
Telling either of them they were wrong and stupid is wrong and stupid.
And there are a million other ways to do things.
 
Right, last one, HONEST! Alec most of the big rufty tufty working dog people I know, start their dogs with clicker training and food, and ALL of them use food on tracks :)
Although it would be nice not to have pockets full of food going through the washing machine constantly *sigh*
 
CaveCanem said:
KLH as another side note, I know you've worked with pits a lot.
If a pit is in the red zone, what are the methods you use?
I am not being snarky, I am genuinely interested.
I appreciate the ideal scenario is to spot the warning signs and not let the dog get to that stage in the first place, but in this situation, it's too late, you're on hand to help - what happens?
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I would be very interested to know too! Tell me do...bull terrier zoned out and attached to me,I thanked God it had a good collar on and eventually detached it and threw it through a kennel door,PTS shortly after.There were NO warning signs,I had multiple holes in various parts,three weeks of antibiotics at mega strength.So..what would YOU do,we are talking bull terrier remember,not sight hound /spaniel whatever.Do you think it might have noticed a doggie choc whilst it was clamped and ragging on my arm/leg/foot???
Believe me CC,my lovely Mali,although highly trained,is an absolute wally compared to a bull terrier that is zoned.HOWEVER,detaching them from another dog?Child`s play,tourniquet the collar ,it will NOT turn on you,once they are zoned into an object that is the entire focus.Unfortunately ,as stated,that time it was me,and by the way it bloody well hurt for weeks.
 
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Oh for FFS, I wrote a huge reply (probably would have been cursed by the sheer length) and lost the lot:mad: I also unlike others used an EXAMPLE, which was a dog I worked with from here so folk where familiar with him (Lady La La's Tye) who was at her wits end and had been given all manor of advice (Some way of the mark).
Never mind im pooped, I will try again tomorrow.:(

I did hit on how I believe it's narrow minded to push one way of training on folk, esp if it's based on "reading" and not experience and you are trying to push the same method on all dog and all behaviours (crazy) Im hearing alot of his lately andhave read posts from other forums when im bored stating just this.
Also what alec said, there is a big difference between having all the time in the world with your pet dog and trying to deal with maybe 3 dogs a week with different and varied issues, some with owners some without.
And basic training cannot be compared to difficult and dangerous behaviours.

Nuff from me, im sick:( sulks.........Im sure you could always go back before (forum) and your reply would still be there whenever you lost it:confused:

And to add, I did not say, "CM was the only one who could deal with the levels of aggression he does" I said " You don't readily see others dealing with this type of aggression. I may not have been me referred too, I read fast and cannot quote without quoting whole replies.
 
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Person A is told that they need to be very firm and make the dog do as it is told, he doesn't need incentives, he should just DO it and RESPECT the owner and know his place because any other way is weak and wimpy.
The dog is not strong enough and breaks down and is asked to leave the class because it is not responding or progressing and the owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Person B is told that they must only ever use positive methods, never have to raise their voice or use a control collar - humane harnesses only - of any sort or say the word 'no' because any other way is cruel.
The dog is too strong for this and it is not responding or progressing, they are asked to leave the class.
The owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.


MY EXAMPLE OF QUOTING ^^^^LMAO^^^^^ WHAT CC SAID

And this narrow mindedness leaves the dog in limbo and the owner!
If one or both methods are needed, use them.
 
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