Chaff or no Chaff?

khalswitz said:
Just wanted to point out that saliva does begin digestion - it contains amylase, amongst other enzymes, which begin digestion of food prior to it hitting the stomach. Hence why dry chaff is good as it promotes saliva production (over feeding wet feeds, especially if made sloppy is bad because of this).
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No, it doesn't in horses, as per the equine nutrition course of the University of Edinburgh (free to enroll online on Coursera). There is no digestion in the stomach either, it starts in the small intestine in the horse.

As per the same course, bulking out the hard feed is not advised, just feeding small meals of hard feed, up to 2kg per meal if I remember well (am not saying they say don't feed chaff but they say that hard feed meal should be small as not to overload the stomach.
 
Nope, alfaalfa, mollases and barley all wind my boy up. He's a nightmare on most chaffs. He gets a senior balancer and hay.

Fast fibre if I need to up his fibre intake and calm and condition if he drops any weight. Feedings complicated enough... why make up straights now when you can just give them a balancer if you have an everyday happy hacker occasional local unaffiliated comp horse? At least that's my theory!
 
Nope. Alfalfa makes mine footy.
if I want fibre I feed more hay.
Bucket feed is soaked oats, copra plus a few grass nuts for flavour for 2 fussy ones. Meals are small so I can get them to eat the essentials asap, they can munch hay in their own time.
 
Palindrome said:
No, it doesn't in horses, as per the equine nutrition course of the University of Edinburgh (free to enroll online on Coursera). There is no digestion in the stomach either, it starts in the small intestine in the horse.

As per the same course, bulking out the hard feed is not advised, just feeding small meals of hard feed, up to 2kg per meal if I remember well (am not saying they say don't feed chaff but they say that hard feed meal should be small as not to overload the stomach.
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I did the same - course - go back and read your notes as you have not remembered them very well!
Veterinary Notes for Horse Owners - p23 "Salivary enzymes help to break down starch to Maltose"
Equine Nutrition - Week 1
Page 6 • So – "principle diet should be forage"
Page 15 • Little digestion of feed – some protein break down (no absorption)
Page 23 The GIT ‐ conclusion • Designed to process fibrous feeds • Fibrous feeds required for – Healthy gut – Satisfy behavioural needs

Maintenance • Feed intake – Generally 2 % of bodyweight • Forage only (with forage balancer)

Breeding ‐ stallion: • Feed good quality forage

Growing horses: • Yearlings to two years: – Growth rate begins to slow – Correct feeding still essential • Feeding:
– Feed ad lib forage – Good quality forage should meet energy and protein requirements – Some youngsters may need supplementary feeding (stud feed)
• Two years onwards – Requirements affected by training (e.g. racehorse) – If not in training then forage alone

Light work: – Recreational riding – Beginning of training programme - Requirements: – Appetite = 2 % BW – Good quality forage

Moderate work: – Novice/intermediate level eventer – Dressage horse (medium level) – Grade A showjumper
• Requirements: – Appetite = 2.25 % BW – Good quality forage – Supplementary feeds – Forage should comprise minimum 60 to 70 % of the ration • Supplementary feeds – Mix, Sugar beet pulp, HT alfalfa, Oil

• Heavy work: – 3 day eventer – Endurance horse (70 to 100 mile rides) • Requirements: – Appetite = 2.5 % BW – Good quality forage plus supplementary feeds – Forage should comprise minimum 50 to 60 % of the ration

Very heavy work: – Racehorse • Requirements: – Appetite = 2.25 % BW – Good quality forage – Plus supplementary feeds
– Forage should comprise minimum 50 of the ration

Dietary management‐ conclusion
• Feed high quality forage • Use high degradable fibrous feeds • Feed cereals in moderation • Feed little and often • Monitor bodyweight
 
I don't think anyone on this thread is debating the need for a diet to be high in fibres- hopefully most reasonably educated horsey people should know that forage/fibre should be the main basis of the diet. However the debate on this thread is surely about whether a specific form of fibre (ie chaff) is compulsory even when the horse is getting plentiful fibre elsewhere.
 
Tnavas said:
I did the same - course - go back and read your notes as you have not remembered them very well!
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I didn't take notes but I am sure of it as it was also a question in the quizz (am not 100% sure about the stomach but am sure about saliva only being a lubricant). Anyone else has done the course and can tell us yes or no?

Looking online I stand my ground.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/33228/digestion-in-the-horse
"However, the horse has a comparatively reduced capacity for digestion. Salivary digestion of carbohydrates occurs in humans and other species, but such digestion is minimal in horses."

http://phantomriders.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/0/1/13012774/horse_digestive_system.pdf
"Water makes up 99% of the horse's saliva with the other 1% composed of inorganic salts (ions), and proteins. There are no enzymes in the saliva of the horse."

Not sure if your notes are up to scratch Tnavas, unless the course has been changed since I took it. But several of your claims don't make sense to me in comparison with what I learnt on that course.

ETA: the 2nd link has the stomach digesting proteins (and some fat but most of the fat digested in large intestine). A very interesting summary.
 
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But there is a difference between saying what proportion of forage should make up the diet with different workloads and the need for fibrous feed and saying that some sort of chopped fibre should be added to the bucket feed.

Mine probably get at least 90% of their calorie intake from forage ( I have to estimate intake for the 8 - 12 hours grazing daily so can't be exact and they have ad lib hay) but they don't get any chaff.
 
Palindrome said:
I didn't take note but I am sure of it as it was also a question in the quizz (am not 100% sure about the stomach but am sure about saliva only being a lubricant). Anyone else has done the course and can tell us yes or no?

Looking online I stand my ground.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/33228/digestion-in-the-horse
"However, the horse has a comparatively reduced capacity for digestion. Salivary digestion of carbohydrates occurs in humans and other species, but such digestion is minimal in horses."

http://phantomriders.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/0/1/13012774/horse_digestive_system.pdf
"Water makes up 99% of the horse's saliva with the other 1% composed of inorganic salts (ions), and proteins. There are no enzymes in the saliva of the horse." Their information is incorrect - read Veterinary Notes for Horse Owners - written by Equine Vet specialists Veterinary Notes for Horse Owners - p23 "Salivary enzymes help to break down starch to Maltose"


Not sure if your notes are up to scratch Tnavas, unless the course has been changed since I took it. But several of your claims don't make sense to me in comparison with what I learnt on that course.
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All the above was copied and pasted from the notes!
 
I use plain chopped oat straw .
I like to use this verses more tasty chaffs as it makes the horses used to eating it useful when injury strikes .
 
Palindrome said:
No, it doesn't in horses, as per the equine nutrition course of the University of Edinburgh (free to enroll online on Coursera). There is no digestion in the stomach either, it starts in the small intestine in the horse.

As per the same course, bulking out the hard feed is not advised, just feeding small meals of hard feed, up to 2kg per meal if I remember well (am not saying they say don't feed chaff but they say that hard feed meal should be small as not to overload the stomach.
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Yeah, I'm midway through a Master's in Equine science at the Dick, know Joanne and the guys who ran it very well ;)

Yes, horses do have amylase in the saliva. The activity is markedly less than seen on humans, monkeys, rodents, but is around 4x more so than cattle and sheep, so there is still carbohydrate hydrolysis occurring. There was a decent literature review done by I believe Cohn on amylase in various species that would be worth a look if I can find a link...

Horse Saliva also contains bicarbonate, which acts as a stomach acid buffer and is pretty important too. However equine saliva contains less bicarb and sodium proportionately than calcium and chloride, so horses that have reduced saliva production, or can't swallow due to choke for example, can end up hypochloremic and alkalotic.

Importantly, horses do not salivate in anticipation of eating like dogs for example - mastication is required for saliva production.

ETA - woah, where on earth did it say no digestion happens in the stomach!!!

That's tosh. ALL of your simple sugars and carbs are digested in the stomach (although absorption happens in the small intestine mainly in the horse). Your cellulose is all digested and absorbed in the hindgut, but digestion of simple sugars, starch and simple proteins happens in the stomach. Stomach acid contains lipases, amylases, and pepsins to break down fats, starches and proteins respectively.

Digestion of starch not occurring in the stomach and then rushing through the small intestine is what causes hindgut acidosis.
 
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khalswitz said:
Yeah, I'm midway through a Master's in Equine science at the Dick, know Joanne and the guys who ran it very well ;)

Yes, horses do have amylase in the saliva. The activity is markedly less than seen on humans, monkeys, rodents, but is around 4x more so than cattle and sheep, so there is still carbohydrate hydrolysis occurring. There was a decent literature review done by I believe Cohn on amylase in various species that would be worth a look if I can find a link...

Horse Saliva also contains bicarbonate, which acts as a stomach acid buffer and is pretty important too. However equine saliva contains less bicarb and sodium proportionately than calcium and chloride, so horses that have reduced saliva production, or can't swallow due to choke for example, can end up hypochloremic and alkalotic.

Importantly, horses do not salivate in anticipation of eating like dogs for example - mastication is required for saliva production.

ETA - woah, where on earth did it say no digestion happens in the stomach!!!

That's tosh. ALL of your simple sugars and carbs are digested in the stomach (although absorption happens in the small intestine mainly in the horse). Your cellulose is all digested and absorbed in the hindgut, but digestion of simple sugars, starch and simple proteins happens in the stomach. Stomach acid contains lipases, amylases, and pepsins to break down fats, starches and proteins respectively.

Digestion of starch not occurring in the stomach and then rushing through the small intestine is what causes hindgut acidosis.
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Interesting, was not sure about the stomach part and looks like it's wrong. The 4 times more than cattle and sheep do not necessarily mean that's significant when we consider the amount of starch in a bucket feed (although it might be for lower starch feed like hay)? If I remember well starch was said to be digested in small intestine where there is enzymatic digestion, hind gut acidosis being when it reaches the large intestine, no? Fat was said to be mainly digested in large intestine.
Could you point us toward a good recap of how the horse's digestive tract works?
 
I've just stopped feeding it, there's no point when all of mine are on ad lib hay. Instead they're having oats and sugarbeet (which is what my 2 colts were on at Woodlander Stud and look fab!!!) with Topspec All-In-One. Much cheaper too!
 
Palindrome said:
I am curious now, they might have changed the course then. Anyone to confirm/contradict?
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I took the course in January 2013


kahlswitz - this is taken from the notes for the Equine Nutrition Course

Stomach - Page 15
• Size – relatively small and inelastic
– Capacity of ~ 8 litres (~ size of a rugby ball)
– Important not to over fill (no more than 2 kg per meal)
– Reason why we feed little and often
• Divided into 2 sections (non‐glandular and glandular)
– Non‐glandular section is where food enters (no mucous layer)
– Glandular is where hydrochloric acid is produced (protected by mucous layer)
• Acidic – pH ~ 1.5 to 2 in the glandular region
• Little digestion of feed – some protein break down (no absorption)
• Rate of passage – rapid (~ 20 minutes)
 
TGM said:
I don't think anyone on this thread is debating the need for a diet to be high in fibres- hopefully most reasonably educated horsey people should know that forage/fibre should be the main basis of the diet. However the debate on this thread is surely about whether a specific form of fibre (ie chaff) is compulsory even when the horse is getting plentiful fibre elsewhere.
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This. And I remain unconvinced.

P
 
Tnavas said:
I took the course in January 2013


kahlswitz - this is taken from the notes for the Equine Nutrition Course

Stomach - Page 15
• Size – relatively small and inelastic
– Capacity of ~ 8 litres (~ size of a rugby ball)
– Important not to over fill (no more than 2 kg per meal)
– Reason why we feed little and often
• Divided into 2 sections (non‐glandular and glandular)
– Non‐glandular section is where food enters (no mucous layer)
– Glandular is where hydrochloric acid is produced (protected by mucous layer)
• Acidic – pH ~ 1.5 to 2 in the glandular region
• Little digestion of feed – some protein break down (no absorption)
• Rate of passage – rapid (~ 20 minutes)
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Hang on - reading both your posts I Think we have to be clear that digestion and absorption are two different things. Digestion or breakdown is the stomach's main job in all species with stomachs, however amount of absorption in the stomach varies (the horse doesn't do much). In the horse, stomach breaks down food on a macro scale, ie breaking down your Bolus and then beginning breakdown of macromolecules like lipids, starches and proteins, proximal intestine on a micro scale ie continued breakdown of macromolecules to easily absorbed small molecules like monosaccharides, amino acids and VFAs. These are then absorbed in then small intestine. So if we're clear on terminology then digestion happens in the stomach, further digestion and absorption in the small intestine (not including cellulose).

Yup - you feed little and often to allow food to be broken down in the stomach, otherwise the consistency of the chyme when it enters the small intestine is too solid and then doesn't fully get broken down by the additional enzymes introduced in the proximal small intestine and properly absorbed. The lack of digestion in the stomach means food can't be absorbed properly on the small intestine, and it also pushes good through the foregut faster, which means a more acidic chyme arrives in The hindgut which can lead to acidosis.

Regarding saliva, you'll find significance depends on mastication time. There is a smaller amount of amylase present than in humans, so action won't be as significant, but in feeds requiring greater mastication the action will be greater as time in the mouth is longer and salvia production greater too. So consistency of your bucket feed will have an impact - a, funnily enough, more chaff feed will see more amylase action than a soaked feed like sugar beet.

Personally, I'd be more worried about overly damp and soft feeds than I would be about feeding specifically chaff. Overly soft and damp feeds won't encourage salvia production, for either the digestive, lubricant or buffer roles. I always feed my sugar beet with as little water as necessary, so it is quite dry but fully soaked, and I don't add water to feeds like nuts, as it encourages them to chew them better. That's when feeding chaff to stop them rushing and choking can be useful.

I have to admit that there are other sources of fibre, and chaff therefore isn't necessary as long as dietary fibre intake is high enough and bucket feed does not need chaff for other reasons.
 
Oh dear - Afraid I've been feeding mine loads of chaff for years and will continue to do so as per if it ain't broke don't fix it. However, it is all molasses free and they don't all have the same - varies according to their needs. What I would never do is give them loads of the cheap Molichaff that is coated in molasses, bleugh!! I have a 6yo who we thought may possibly have ulcers so had him scoped and you could see scars from where there had been ulcers in the past, but none at present - vet said whatever you're feeding him is working so don't change it. (Good enough for me) He has only molasses free Alfa A plus soaked grass nuts and no hard feed added. No reason to change this and risk ulcers. Another 27 year old has been through 2 colic surgeries in the last 8 years (Pendunculated lipomas both times, so nothing to do with what he gets fed, before anyone says otherwise!) These days he's a little picky with his hay/haylage so he gets plenty of chaff and also a bucket of grass. (The Top Spec one with soya oil as it's the only one he likes) Have another oldie (24) with Cushings so he gets lots of unmolassed chaff and very little concentrate. The 4 competition boys and girl also get plenty of (molasses free) chaff and soaked grass nuts with their small quantity of concentrates.
Oh and the 27yo does drool like a dog while waiting for his feed - plenty of people can vouch for this as they've been on the end of one of his mahussive camel spits!
 
On the salivating before food is given one of mine had been pretty hungry before he came ( he lived out with minimum intervention for two years ) he would literally run with drool when he saw you coming with food .
 
Tnavas said:
BAlancers come in various types, are you referring to the type that is highly concentrated compound of vitamins, minerals & proteins which are fed in a very small quantity? Or the type that is a full feed of Carbs, proteins, vitamins & minerals.

Neither contain any significant fibre content.
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I also feed only balancers. The amount of hard feed given is about half the volume of half an apple. I dampen the pellets to carry any other supplements they are on. I think my horses hoover enough grass and hay around their bucket feeds to negate the need for chaff :) Pretty sure this tiddly amount of soggy concentrate will navigate through their guts OK.

I don't know about anyone else, but my impression of 'modern' feeds was that we all knew they should be low starch, high fibre etc. My feeling was that as more is known re ulcers, EMS etc that more horse friendly feeds have become widely available. I don't know anyone who gives big starchy molassed bucket feeds any more.
 
milliepops said:
Perhaps, but I wonder who that is. Just going on this thread, it doesn't seem to be many HHOers ;)
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BUT, dare I say it, people on HHO tend to be have their eyes opened (forcibly in some cases!). We talk about feed A LOT. I know for a fact my old YO still feeds Pasture Mix as a main feed (seen the sugar content?!), and another friend still fees molasses sugar beet 'because it is cheaper'. So the whole world does not know better...
 
True :) Though I wouldn't call pasture mix or molassed sugar beet a modern feed as mentioned above ;)

In my mind there are 3 ages of horse feeds -
'old fashioned' (with tongue in cheek) straights - OK if you know what you are doing/get through enough to avoid waste
outdated starchy mixes, probably came into fashion around the time I started keeping horses and really sold to benefit owners - coarse mix has a lot to answer for as it looks so darn yummy ;)
Modern - thinking of all the high oil/high fibre/low starch/balancer type options available now that are a bit more science based and probably targetted towards the thinking horse owner :p

Perhaps it's just me!
 
milliepops said:
True :) Though I wouldn't call pasture mix or molassed sugar beet a modern feed as mentioned above ;)

In my mind there are 3 ages of horse feeds -
'old fashioned' (with tongue in cheek) straights - OK if you know what you are doing/get through enough to avoid waste
outdated starchy mixes, probably came into fashion around the time I started keeping horses and really sold to benefit owners - coarse mix has a lot to answer for as it looks so darn yummy ;)
Modern - thinking of all the high oil/high fibre/low starch/balancer type options available now that are a bit more science based and probably targetted towards the thinking horse owner :p

Perhaps it's just me!
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I got pulled up earlier on the thread by using the term modern feeding methods, meaning low starch and sugar not feeding mixes I also thought feeding had moved on and that it was now more common to feed fibre and oil, so not just you, I think my horses get adequate fibre in their diets and have no use for chaff or chop on a daily basis.

I was wondering whether feeding chop/ chaff soaked in loads of water is actually detrimental and contributing to the increase in ulcers, the owners thinking they are doing their best by giving a fibre rich feed but negating the benefit of saliva production by giving it soaking wet, that combined with damp hay of haylage must be reducing how much saliva they require to chew and swallow each mouthful. I always used to feed it dry or only very slightly dampened by the sugar beet or fast fibre that was added, there should be no need to wet it as there should be no dust to worry about.
 
Molassed Sugarbeet has been around for at least 50 years, its only in the past 10-15yrs that its been available without the added Molasses.

Feed should just be damped enough to settle any dust.

TBH you modern feeders seem to have a very large amount of problems that we never faced when we fed straights. Our ponies lived out 24/7 on grass, laminitis was only seen in spring - and only if you didn't have enough sense to restrict your fat pony's feed at that time of the year.

I still feed straights and still have no problems with any of my horses and ponies. My school ponies/horses lived out 24/7, on dairy pasture, with rye grass and clover - irrigated throughout the summer so grass was always at optimum health, and fertilised usually twice a year. The had Himalayan rock salt in the paddocks and a Magnesium block in spring and autumn.

They were only fed if they worked, even in winter their stable diet was hay. Feed was Oat or Lucerne chaff, oats for the fat ponies and barley for those that needed more to maintain condition. The average age of the horses was around 19yrs. They were never lame, or sick save a couple of cases of grass staggers after the owner of the property went a bit wild with the irrigator and fertiliser.

The vet only came in once in the ten years I ran the school to assess a pony that would now have been described as having Cushings, he was in his late 20's.
 
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