Chiffneys

[Toby_Zaphod]

I have been around horses for 40 years & I value my health & safety. I use a chifney daily on several horses. They still have their 'moments' but I can lead them & control them safely, without causing them any injury & without getting injured myself. Those that are anti chifney & come out with all this 'lack of ground work' etc rubbish are in La La Land. Get real, when you've half a ton plus of muscle sinue on the end of a rope you need control, don't pussyfoot around, or you're in hospital or dead.

I love my horses, I would never harm them & I ensure that they won't harm me.

 

[annaellie]

When a chifney is being used it's not always as black and White as it appears, yes there are always going to be people who take short cuts like anything.

My old boy that I lost to colic was 17.2 reared, boxed down on you would try to bolt and buck out when leading him I was eventually told that he needed a chifney, I hated the idea but I had tried every other route. I was kindly shown how to use it and he was in it for 6 months and then back to a headcollar
My boy was bought very cheap because of this behaviour, I also found an article on his grandsire and it stated that he was fiery one to handle on the ground and some parts of the article it was like it was about my old boy. This makes me think how much of his behaviour was due to breeding temperament.

Also I would never have forgiven myself if he would have hurt a child or someone on yard just because I could not open my mind to something that was unknown to me.
Chifneys do have there place in the correct hands and horses that do need them

 

[rhino]

Id put a dually headcollar on him in the box with a 15ft line

Isn't is great we have freedom to choose which equipment we feel would work best in the given situation - it would be terribly 'boring' if people tried to dictate what we should use and think that one solution fits all problems.

It's like the saying 'A good workman never blames his tools'

Expect them to behave properly and you stand a better chance of getting a good result!

So true

 

[AengusOg]

all this 'lack of ground work' etc rubbish are in La La Land.

Lots of people contact me in La La Land, and I help them with their training issues.

 

[Caledonia]

ME? Id forget his history and the story that came with him - thats owners baggage not his.

Id put a dually headcollar on him in the box with a 15ft line so I had extra length in case of emergencies. Id lead him out of the box, and let him come down the ramp however he wanted as if hes wound up i wouldnt want an accident. Id let him stand and have a look around and get his bearings.

If he started towing me off in one direction id circle him and make him stand next to me. We'd do this until he stood calmly, no matter how long it took. Then Id begin leading him in the direction of wherever hes going - If he gets in front I would check him using the halter, and back him to just behind my right shoulder. Everytime. Without fail. Whilst walking to where we were going I do several halts, so he knows when I halt he halts. Every time. He should halt behind me, not to the side, not in front, behind. Everytime.

When we got to said destination he would be expected to stand whilst the head collar was removed.

Everytime he stood where he is supposed to he would get a rub and praise, if he got infront or pulled i just ignore and correct.

I backed a 17.2 gelderlander stallion, who was feral, without ever resorting to a chifney If you expect them to behave badly, they will, because your body language will teach them to. Expect them to behave properly and you stand a better chance of getting a good result!

Whilst I do agree with your sentiments of owner baggage, and the 'expect them to behave' approach, I don't agree that there is no place for a chifney. A feral horse is not one that has extremely bad learned behaviour, so not a suitable comparison.

I have only used one on maybe 3 or 4 difficult horses, but in each case there was no other safe option. What would you do if you couldn't hold the horse when it jumped out the lorry, or came out the stable?

I don't agree with having a horse on a long rein. If it playing up badly, that simply opens the door for you to be kicked, or crashed into by a reactive or overexuberant horse.

Also totally disagree with making a horse stand behind you. So dangerous with a problem horse.

 

[Caledonia]

I'd take him into the school, in a pressure halter, and teach him what he needed to know. Using a chifney on him would only force such a horse to behave through fear of the consequences should he not, whereas training would change him for the better.

I handle lots of 'difficult' horses, as a freelance trainer, and I've never used a chifney. We have a stallion at work who came with one, but I've no idea why as he's well behaved in a head collar or a stallion bridle.

I'm not saying they should never be used, but there are other ways to train and handle horses which have been mis-handled in the past. The trouble is, lots of people have no idea how to handle horses in even the most basic way, nor the time to learn, so lots of horses go off the rails.

Today's emphasis seems to be on control rather than training.

I too rehab and retrain difficult horses. I use it sparingly, and only normally need to use it once or twice to explain to the horse that it cannot run over the top of people, or drag them.

Using a chifney is not instigating fear? It's no stronger than a bit. It's simply a control issue for when it's necessary, ie to and from a box to the field for a couple of days until the horse understands that previous dangerous behaviour is a think of the past.

I wouldn't dream of using one in an arena, not sure why how you'd train in arena is relevant?

I'm also not suggesting they be used on a regular basis, but they do have their place.

 

[AmyMay]

I don't agree with having a horse on a long rein. If it playing up badly, that simply opens the door for you to be kicked, or crashed into by a reactive or overexuberant horse.

Also totally disagree with making a horse stand behind you. So dangerous with a problem horse.

You are speaking so much sense.

 

[smiffyimp]

I used a chiffney on my (then) 3yo when he went through his adolescent phase of rearing. I started off with a dually halter and it made no difference. He got 1 smack of the chifney and never went up again - although he was lead too and from the field in it for about 3 months after. He's 8 now and his feet remain firmly on the ground

 

[coen]

They are brilliant.
Like you I used to hold the view that they were too harsh (having never used one).
My horse can be very difficult to bring in during the summer as he would prefer to stay out with his mates. He reared, boxed, spun, bolted in other direction ect.
I refused to go down the chiffney route and spent weeks doing ground work ect, making sure each time he was brought in with bridle lunge line whip ect and it would take ages having to lunge him all the way home. Some days he would be ok and others completely nuts. One day he reared spun and kicked me, fortunately he doesn’t wear shoes but I couldn’t walk for a month and still have a dent in my leg.
Obviously no one else wanted to handle him. Come winter he packed it in. I thought it was sorted but the next summer he started again and was even worse, that day it took me an hour to get him in and lots of near misses for me, the next day another hour.
This is when I thought sod this. Bought a chifney and 10 mins to bring in, kept it on for two weeks just as a precaution but never had another episode and haven’t needed to use it since.
He generally leads like a lamb but can push his luck if someone else brings him in. I keep it as a back up, if he starts playing up with me, one day in the chiffney brings him back into line whereas you could spend weeks faffing about making no difference and getting yourself hurt. The more they get away with bad behaviour the more they do it, I wish I had taken a firmer stance sooner.
I would like to add that the chifney only comes into play if they horse misbehaves.

 

[annaellie]

Aengusog I would really question if you have ever handled a truly difficult and dangerous horse.
Am not a regular chiffney user only used it on one horse myself in 20 years of owning horses I also worked on all sorts of yards so no not a chifney fan

 

[Persephone]

Whilst I do agree with your sentiments of owner baggage, and the 'expect them to behave' approach, I don't agree that there is no place for a chifney. A feral horse is not one that has extremely bad learned behaviour, so not a suitable comparison.

I have only used one on maybe 3 or 4 difficult horses, but in each case there was no other safe option. What would you do if you couldn't hold the horse when it jumped out the lorry, or came out the stable?

I don't agree with having a horse on a long rein. If it playing up badly, that simply opens the door for you to be kicked, or crashed into by a reactive or overexuberant horse.

Also totally disagree with making a horse stand behind you. So dangerous with a problem horse.

Totally agree with this! I have always used a long lead because my last mare used to do circus pony rears now and again on the way to the field. Now I have an unpredictable rising 3 y/o waving both ends about I have changed my ways! Yes I can keep hold, but she can get far enough round to aim a kick at me!

Also agree about horses standing behind you, no way! mine strikes out! At the shoulder all the way.

Oh and for the record if she doesn't pull her socks up soon, she will have a stint in a chifney too.

 

[starbar]

ME? Id forget his history and the story that came with him - thats owners baggage not his.

Id put a dually headcollar on him in the box with a 15ft line so I had extra length in case of emergencies. Id lead him out of the box, and let him come down the ramp however he wanted as if hes wound up i wouldnt want an accident. Id let him stand and have a look around and get his bearings.

If he started towing me off in one direction id circle him and make him stand next to me. We'd do this until he stood calmly, no matter how long it took. Then Id begin leading him in the direction of wherever hes going - If he gets in front I would check him using the halter, and back him to just behind my right shoulder. Everytime. Without fail. Whilst walking to where we were going I do several halts, so he knows when I halt he halts. Every time. He should halt behind me, not to the side, not in front, behind. Everytime.

When we got to said destination he would be expected to stand whilst the head collar was removed.

Everytime he stood where he is supposed to he would get a rub and praise, if he got infront or pulled i just ignore and correct.

I backed a 17.2 gelderlander stallion, who was feral, without ever resorting to a chifney If you expect them to behave badly, they will, because your body language will teach them to. Expect them to behave properly and you stand a better chance of getting a good result!

In an ideal world, yes...

BUT, you mention lead him and circle him etc, I have a horse currently who I am having some pretty big problems with. He will lead beautifully one minute then tank off the next. And I mean really tank and maybe try and double barrel you for good measure. I have tried a dually on him and he runs through it. He knows that he is bigger and stronger and if he puts up for the pressure for a bit, eventually he can run through it as I have to let go.
I would be interested to know what you would do with a horse like this?

 

[TheresaW]

I use one on Mac, usually between about this time of year, until the spring grass starts coming through. He is fine turning out in the mornings, but coming in is an absolute nightmare. He just goes, and doesn't care who is in his way, or on the other end of the leadrope. Have tried using the bridle with no success. I didn't know what a chifney was until YO suggested it, and she taught me how to use it. I can honestly say that when it is in his mouth, he walks alongside me like a dog, and I don't think it has ever come into force.

I also use it to load him as he can get halfway up the ramp, then decide he doesn't want to go on and wave his feet in the air! Again, in the chifney, he walks straight on.

ETA. So far this winter, not had to use it. I am guessing because the weather has been so mild.

 

[MagicMelon]

I agree with OP. I'd never use one, horrid things IMO. I had an extremely bolshy 3yo Welsh Cob (BIG one) a few years back who would set his neck when leading him and just tank off. I put him in a pressure halter (the string type which tightens if he pulls) and the respect he gave it was amazing. It soon got him out of the habit to the point I could then revert to a normal headcollar.

 

[BombayMix]

We used to use a chifney on a horse. He would always barge straight out of the stable and rear or try to kick the handler if you didn't get him to the field quick enough - in a normal headcollar or bridle you had to lead him via a lunge line to be safe but he always respected the Chifney and we were NEVER nasty with it.

 

[Joeyjojo]

I'm a huge fan of the Chifney, however, I would take each horse as it comes to see if it's use is appropriate.

I spent years on ground work with my old horse, no-one could hold him in any pressure head collar when he wanted to go (part naughty, mainly biggest wuss of a horse you've ever met). This was just leading to and from field.

Eventually we tried a Chifney, he pulled once and it was very effective. Leads like a lamb since and actually grew in confidence as he faced his fears (electric fencing, small twig, out of place bit of grass etc etc).

Still use it to lead him to the field if he's in one of 'those' moods. He actually nickers when he sees it so he can't be that traumatised!!

Anyway lesson learnt was that I should have used the Chifney much sooner, instead of faffing for ages trying the 'kinder' options. Although I agree it should only be used when necessary and by experienced people.

 

[TigerTail]

In an ideal world, yes...

BUT, you mention lead him and circle him etc, I have a horse currently who I am having some pretty big problems with. He will lead beautifully one minute then tank off the next. And I mean really tank and maybe try and double barrel you for good measure. I have tried a dually on him and he runs through it. He knows that he is bigger and stronger and if he puts up for the pressure for a bit, eventually he can run through it as I have to let go.
I would be interested to know what you would do with a horse like this?

The stallion i mentioned used to try and tank, succeeded a couple of times if I missed my timing but was rare, usually when the mare next door was busy spraying through the fence! The key thing, and this is with whatever tool you use, is the timing of using it, and releasing it. The tighter you get that, the quicker they learn the good response.

If he tanks off I let them go to a certain point and then use my weight to bring him to a halt or to get a turn, if he keeps going round, thats the beauty of the long rope, you are far enough out of leg reach that they can do what they like and you stand there and say yep when you've quite finished throwing a strop we'l start again. When he stopped Id approach him and just go back to what ever we were doing. Id probably do some schooling with the dually, going backwards, forwards - making him halt when I did etc.

You say he ran through the dually, did you watch the dvd and do some schooling with it before there was a problem?

That comment about LALA land made me wet myself. The only ones in lala land are those who have horses they cannot manage in anything but a chifney, and that are happy to use it on a daily basis instead of addressing the actual problem.

Also the long rope is so that if the horse has a strop you can stand safetly out of the way until they calm down, then start again. If youve only got a 6 ft lead rope and they take off youve got less than half the time to stop them before the rope has gone through your hands and the horse is loose - instead of being able to use the leverage of the extra rope to halt or turn them and have them semi under control.

A horse standing slightly behind your shoulder shouldnt be dangerous. I want them in that position because I am the leader so they should be confident enough in me to follow me. If you have one that strikes then that clearly needs addressing.

 

[starbar]

You say he ran through the dually, did you watch the dvd and do some schooling with it before there was a problem?

Yes, I have used one before and I agree with you as to its effectiveness with the majority of horses. He is proving a little more challenging though!
And I'm not in the Chifney camp either, I'm not using one on him at the moment as he's only 4 and was unhandled until I got him in August.

 

[Caledonia]

The stallion i mentioned used to try and tank, succeeded a couple of times if I missed my timing but was rare, usually when the mare next door was busy spraying through the fence!

So your training methods (by your own standards) are lacking then - he was untouched before you got him- how did he learn to tank?

Also, it's an extremely silly idea to have a feral stallion in hand aware of a mare in season just through a fence without proper preparation.

 

[Ibblebibble]

I find it interesting that people don't consider that a dually or pressure halter can also be cruel in the wrong hands, the whole reason they work is because horses are sensitive to pressure in the places that those halters 'press' on. A pressure halter is a tool to give us control, exactly the same as a chifney!
Horses are all individual and should be treated as such, some will respond fantastically to a dually,others, especially those who have done the rounds and already have a bag of tricks up their sleeve, may need something that gives you instant control so that you can get them to listen.
Even though i always prefer to start gentle but firm i never discount having to step up a notch if it's needed. if that means a chifney to stop me getting my head caved in with flying feet then i will use a chifney.

 

[TigerTail]

I find it interesting that people don't consider that a dually or pressure halter can also be cruel in the wrong hands, the whole reason they work is because horses are sensitive to pressure in the places that those halters 'press' on. A pressure halter is a tool to give us control, exactly the same as a chifney!
.

I do agree with you that it can be cruel in harsh hands, but you'd have to go a lot further to be cruel with a dually whereas a chifney is very very easy to be cruel with and to hurt their sensitive mouths. A dually is also more forgiving of a novice's mistakes where again a chifney is not and is in a more sensitive place to therefore cause more pain.

 

[sjp1]

Some people on my yard use them on a daily basis. They do not agree and actually poo poo 'NH'. I guess they just can't be bothered to teach their horses about pressure and realease.

I use a rope halter and a 14 ft line. Long enough to keep out of trouble and to move him around if i need to

 

[rhino]

I guess they just can't be bothered to teach their horses about pressure and realease.

No, maybe they just use a different tool to do the same job. Why can't people understand that there is more than one way to solve most issues? There appear to be some very closed minded individuals in this post (on both sides). The sooner people realise that other opinions are equally as valid the better the horse world will be.

 

[TigerTail]

Surely though if the horses understood pressure and release then the owners wouldnt need to use the harsher means of a bit in the mouth and could achieve the same control with a lighter tool?

Im sure none of us want to be using anything harsher than is necessary

 

[rhino]

Any tool is only as harsh as the person using it IMO. A chifney used correctly is not harsh. It just uses a different sort of pressure.

 

[TigerTail]

Any tool is only as harsh as the person using it IMO. A chifney used correctly is not harsh. It just uses a different sort of pressure.

We will have to agree to differ there - a chifney digs into the tongue when the horse misbehaves or the handler exerts pressure on the lead. A dually exerts pressure on the nose, if fitted correctly above the sensitive breathing apparatus and above the squishy bit of cartilage in the nose.

Thats a metal thin mouthpiece digging into one of the most sensitive organs on the horse vs a rope on the outside of the nose (also sensitive i know but not as much as the tongue and doesnt lead to other problems later on like chifneys are known to)

 

[Caledonia]

We will have to agree to differ there - a chifney digs into the tongue when the horse misbehaves or the handler exerts pressure on the lead. A dually exerts pressure on the nose, if fitted correctly above the sensitive breathing apparatus and above the squishy bit of cartilage in the nose.

Thats a metal thin mouthpiece digging into one of the most sensitive organs on the horse vs a rope on the outside of the nose (also sensitive i know but not as much as the tongue and doesnt lead to other problems later on like chifneys are known to)

So, letting a horse run round you while hanging onto a dually with continual pressure until the horse stops, taking a few circles, is in your opinion less damaging than one split second action on a horse's mouth, whereupon they behave instantly?

I have used both pressure halters and chifneys, and I know which stresses the horse less, and has an instant reaction. There is no lasting damage with a chifney, it's an instantaneous reaction.

Have you ever used one, TT?

 

[bumblelion]

Pony club kicks springs to mind!

 

[TigerTail]

There seems to be some gross misunderstanding, or perhaps wilful, of IH ways from you Caledonia and Im not getting into this with you given your tone on the other thread.

Whats that mean Santa Paws?? I dont get it!?

 

[Caledonia]

There seems to be some gross misunderstanding, or perhaps wilful, of IH ways from you Caledonia and Im not getting into this with you given your tone on the other thread.

I'm responding to your initial post. You made sweeping statements (strongly against) about chifneys, finished by saying 'Discuss'.

There is no gross misunderstanding because my opinions differ to you, I'm simply replying and explaining why.

I did actually agree with some of your points about behaviour earlier. You seem to have ignored that.