Chiffneys

[meandmyself]

ME? Id forget his history and the story that came with him - thats owners baggage not his.

Id put a dually headcollar on him in the box with a 15ft line so I had extra length in case of emergencies. Id lead him out of the box, and let him come down the ramp however he wanted as if hes wound up i wouldnt want an accident. Id let him stand and have a look around and get his bearings.

If he started towing me off in one direction id circle him and make him stand next to me. We'd do this until he stood calmly, no matter how long it took. Then Id begin leading him in the direction of wherever hes going - If he gets in front I would check him using the halter, and back him to just behind my right shoulder. Everytime. Without fail. Whilst walking to where we were going I do several halts, so he knows when I halt he halts. Every time. He should halt behind me, not to the side, not in front, behind. Everytime.

When we got to said destination he would be expected to stand whilst the head collar was removed.

Everytime he stood where he is supposed to he would get a rub and praise, if he got infront or pulled i just ignore and correct.

I backed a 17.2 gelderlander stallion, who was feral, without ever resorting to a chifney If you expect them to behave badly, they will, because your body language will teach them to. Expect them to behave properly and you stand a better chance of getting a good result!

Sounds sensible. The only bit that worries me is where you say 'he should halt behind me'. That sounds like a quick way to get trampled. It's much safer to have them next to you so you can see what they're doing.

 

[meandmyself]

I'd take him into the school, in a pressure halter, and teach him what he needed to know. Using a chifney on him would only force such a horse to behave through fear of the consequences should he not, whereas training would change him for the better.

I handle lots of 'difficult' horses, as a freelance trainer, and I've never used a chifney. We have a stallion at work who came with one, but I've no idea why as he's well behaved in a head collar or a stallion bridle.

I'm not saying they should never be used, but there are other ways to train and handle horses which have been mis-handled in the past. The trouble is, lots of people have no idea how to handle horses in even the most basic way, nor the time to learn, so lots of horses go off the rails.

Today's emphasis seems to be on control rather than training.

IMO, a pressure halter/chifney/chain over the nose all do the same thing.

 

[TigerTail]

Sounds sensible. The only bit that worries me is where you say 'he should halt behind me'. That sounds like a quick way to get trampled. It's much safer to have them next to you so you can see what they're doing.

You dont trust your horse to stand behind you? Not directly behind, slightly out to the right but def behind the shoulder. Im the leader, i want the horse to be confident in that so will follow and obey, not to be challenging who is in charge or thinking he is in charge.
Why would the horse trample me?!

 

[meandmyself]

You don't trust your horse to stand behind you? Not directly behind, slightly out to the right but def behind the shoulder. I'm the leader, I want the horse to be confident in that so will follow and obey, not to be challenging who is in charge or thinking he is in charge.
Why would the horse trample me?!

I wouldn't trust any horse to stand behind me. I've worked with a wide range of horses and even the most well trained can spook/be stung/whatever. I saw a 22y/o first ridden pony almost trample her owner because a wasp had stung her. It's just not worth the risk, IMO.

I also don't believe that making the horse stand behind you has any effect on 'leadership.' That comes from other things, not where the horse stands.

 

[Tinypony]

I wouldn't trust any horse to stand behind me. I've worked with a wide range of horses and even the most well trained can spook/be stung/whatever. I saw a 22y/o first ridden pony almost trample her owner because a wasp had stung her. It's just not worth the risk, IMO.

I also don't believe that making the horse stand behind you has any effect on 'leadership.' That comes from other things, not where the horse stands.

I agree re the "leadership" thing, I don't think that comes from where a horse stands, more from a mutual understanding of space, and also from trust and confidence. But I think leadership is a rather over-used and misinterpreted term.

I don't think that TigerTail means that the horse stands literally behind her, she's clarified that, she means behind and to the side, so the spooking horse would go past her.

I have never had the need to use a chiffney, but I would dispute when people say that they don't damage mouths. I took on a horse that had been led in a chiffney for a couple of months, because he kept trying to dash off even when wearing it (mental problems). In spite of only having seen the farrier quite recently his teeth were sharp where the metal had contacted them and his gums were badly bruised.

 

[sjp1]

No, maybe they just use a different tool to do the same job. Why can't people understand that there is more than one way to solve most issues? There appear to be some very closed minded individuals in this post (on both sides). The sooner people realise that other opinions are equally as valid the better the horse world will be.

I very much agree with that, and it is something we are all guilty of!

 

[AmyMay]

You dont trust your horse to stand behind you? Not directly behind, slightly out to the right but def behind the shoulder. Im the leader, i want the horse to be confident in that so will follow and obey, not to be challenging who is in charge or thinking he is in charge.
Why would the horse trample me?!

Actually the herd 'leader' actually leads from behind.

And whilst I agree with you in principle about having a horse stand and lead behind you safely - I'd never do it with a horse I didn't know or a youngster.....

 

[Miss L Toe]

You dont trust your horse to stand behind you? Not directly behind, slightly out to the right but def behind the shoulder. Im the leader, i want the horse to be confident in that so will follow and obey, not to be challenging who is in charge or thinking he is in charge.
Why would the horse trample me?!

You are taking a very aggressive stance, some horses are flighty and unpredictable, if you are in the way and they react in the flight mode you can get jumped on, not trampled unless you fall in front of them. In a herd situation the leader will have to regularly fight his corner, but as they are better equipped than humans, they can get out of the way quicker. This is akin to saying, if he kicks me, i will kick back, but more aggressively, one could argue this is a Natural method, but not one that would be successful, I have met one person who tried this method [truly], got kicked twice in one week, by two different horses, due to his inexperience in handling horses. Another small yardman who claimed he could handle a big nervous/agrgessive 660kg gelding with brute force, fortunately the big boy just ignored his pathetic attempts to put this in to action.
I have been lifted off the ground by a loopy 13.1 Highland, no natural methods used, he just leapt straight in the air, with me attached. I have been attacked by a big mare, full speed and teeth at the ready, knowing her, "I am the leader" attitude, I had a handy twitch stick to bop her on the nose, I think I also went in to the field with a skull cap on, as she had already taken a good bite out of me on the first occasion I met her.

 

[Miss L Toe]

thanks the lord! someone agrees with me! i think they are nastyy and people should go bck to basics with their horse to learn whats up anyway

Nothing is nasty, it is a piece of metal with no malice, it does not come in to action unless it is necessary, I assume you have never used one, possible because all the horses you have handled have been fairly predictable and well handled.
I have handled 1000 TB's over time, many are not known to me, but I have only used a chiffney once, when I was instructed to do so by the Head Lad, for my safety, as it happens it was not needed as the horse was perfectly behaved, presumably in part because he had a chiffney in his mouth1

 

[Miss L Toe]

I don't think that TigerTail means that the horse stands literally behind her, she's clarified that, she means behind and to the side, so the spooking horse would go past her.

I have never had the need to use a chiffney, but I would dispute when people say that they don't damage mouths. I took on a horse that had been led in a chiffney for a couple of months, because he kept trying to dash off even when wearing it (mental problems). In spite of only having seen the farrier quite recently his teeth were sharp where the metal had contacted them and his gums were badly bruised.

Yes, the horse was mental, so a different approach was required. No way would a chiffney "sharpen the teeth" if that is being suggested, teeth have to be sharp enough to chew up fibrous forage, so I don't know what you are trying to say. He could not be completely mental or he would not allow you to examine his mouth.
My own boy used to be very spooky at night, and even whether he was behind and or/to the side, he would jump in to me, I handled him in a bridle, but not a chiffney, anyway he did not rear and was not aggressive, just spooky. He did not suffer sore gums or sharp teeth and has a lovely soft mouth, so this form of handling has not hurt him or damaged him.

 

[coen]

They certainly can damage mouths if used incorrectly, I have heard horror stories about horses breaking there jaws by getting loose in one.
But they are extreme cases and this bit does serve and important purpose with horses who are being dangerous.
My horse is very sensitive in the mouth and he didn't have any problems / objections when I have needed to use it.
And as for having the horse behind you, really wouldn't recommend that, if it decides to rear you are in major trouble.

 

[Miss L Toe]

They certainly can damage mouths if used incorrectly, I have heard horror stories about horses breaking there jaws by getting loose in one.
But they are extreme cases and this bit does serve and important purpose with horses who are being dangerous.
My horse is very sensitive in the mouth and he didn't have any problems / objections when I have needed to use it.
And as for having the horse behind you, really wouldn't recommend that, if it decides to rear you are in major trouble.

I have heard horror stories about ponies breaking a jaw because their rope show halter was tied incorrectly, and l know of a horse who broke is leg due to shoe catching on a bit of wire, a horse jumped over a fence when I was out hunting once and broke a leg, I have seen the results of "freak" accidents, the same accident over and over again.
People do not seem to realise that a twitch applied to a pony can be lethal, I have seen folks hand over this responsibility to a child or inexperienced person without any form of instruction.

 

[AmyMay]

I don't think that TigerTail means that the horse stands literally behind her, she's clarified that, she means behind and to the side, so the spooking horse would go past her.

Unlikely - my experience is that they usually jump right on top of you

 

[drift91]

No, maybe they just use a different tool to do the same job. Why can't people understand that there is more than one way to solve most issues? There appear to be some very closed minded individuals in this post (on both sides). The sooner people realise that other opinions are equally as valid the better the horse world will be.

I understand what you are saying and everyone is entitled to the own opinions, but if we all regarded others' opinion to be as valid as our own, we wouldn't have the variety of training methods we see today and nothing would ever move forward! I think it is good that we all hold strong opinions on what we believe in.


I also disagree with the comments that people who have not used chifneys have not had to handle difficult/dangerous horses. People have different ways of doing things and I think to suggest you would have to use a chifney is very closed minded, just because it is somebody's choice does not mean others aren't capable of handling without one!

 

[TigerTail]

Unlikely - my experience is that they usually jump right on top of you

Nope if they are stood correctly and spook they head for the open space, that is of course providing you've got a long enough length of rope that they know they can do so, rather than 6ft lead or reins over head in which case theyve got now where to go.

I also like being close enough that should a horse spook hes not going the space to get up momentum to wallop me with any great force - same principle that say im doing my friends horses leg straps up, she likes to lift her back foot up, i stand so im squashed into her thigh so if she does kick all I get is a bump, rather than the massive bruise and pain of a kick which has reached full momentum and leverage.

 

[rhino]

I understand what you are saying and everyone is entitled to the own opinions, but if we all regarded others' opinion to be as valid as our own, we wouldn't have the variety of training methods we see today and nothing would ever move forward!

Maybe I didn't phrase it well. I didn't mean that all techniques are as valid (though I do believe opinions are), but that people need to remain open minded enough to take in other techniques... Which correlates exactly with the second part of your post There are a lot of bits/tack/gadgets I would be very, very unlikely ever to use but I still like to know how they work and why other people do choose to use them. The idea of an inanimate object being inherently cruel is totally nonsensical

I really worry when people totally write off anything and fixate on one possible method/outcome, I prefer to have as many tools in my toolbox as possible so I can choose the one to suit the horse standing beside (not behind ) me on that particular day

 

[GCC]

I hate these posts, you often can't do right for doing wrong! I had to put a chiffney on my 138cm mare when i was younger because otherwise she would rear and box at me on the way to the field, but i was told how to use it correctly and thankfully rarely had to use it.

Worked with a few stallions and most of them tend to have a chiffiney on as standard, i think it's fine so long as it's in the right hands and with the right horses.

 

[anuvb]

I hate these posts, you often can't do right for doing wrong! I had to put a chiffney on my 138cm mare when i was younger because otherwise she would rear and box at me on the way to the field, but i was told how to use it correctly and thankfully rarely had to use it.

Me too. I would only ever use one as a last resort but my current horse had been badly handled prior to getting him with incorrect use of a pressure headcollar. He will think nothing of planting, rearing and boxing his way out of a situation he doesn't fancy at that point in time (eg coming in from the field to be fed) and in the worst case scenario has been known to throw himself onto concrete to avoid pressure.

... After 2 years of groundwork he is much more consistent but on 'those days' I need to be able to nip the behaviour in the bud otherwise he - or I - will end up hospitalised. One quick restriction on the chifney and he is fine and we go back to the headcollar. If I try pressure on his poll or nose (he has had a broken nose in the past) he goes loopy.

No choice - it's a safety thing. And trust me, I'm experienced and have tried all the alternatives.

 

[SpottyTB]

Hmmm interesting post, firstly can i just state in relation to the above posters.. my horse when she spooks or panics, she doesn't head for the open space she heads for me. We are both stood in the correct position and she is lead correctly, but no matter the situation, she will jump on me as she needs my reassurance, she lacks complete spacial awareness, always has done and probably always will do (hence why i shall never sell her), she looks to me for reassurance and support when she is scared and like i said, will litrelly jump into my space.

As for the use of chifney's, i agree with the posters who say "if uses correctly they are fine", I had a dvd on the use of one, a lesson from my instructor on the use of one and many different opinions before i put her in one. Gem's not dangerous, but she is a flighty little mare, if she panics she either jumps into my space or spins and gallops into the nearest person/horse, she's only 5 and it doesn't take a lot for her to get pushy and wound up (its only ever when i lead her in and out of the field) usually its other horses pratting around in the field or over the hedge.. I fought the idea of using a chifney for months until she got scared one day, cantered past me towards my gran and my other horse (shuving me into a hedge), stopped in her tracks, looked around for me, saw me and galloped straight back into me - like litrelly didn't stop, knocked me out for 15 minutes, put me in hospital for concussion and bruised me very badly - could have come of worse, she did actually knock me in the head with her foot (again i stress, this little mare isn't nasty, she just panics and goes S**T MUM!!!!!!!!)

Put a chifney on her and she's like a little lamb, for some reason it provides some form of reasurance to her and it also allows me to enforce my *own space* .. After 3 months of using it, i went back to putting a head collar under neath and just clipping the rope to the head collar, eventually i was able to take the chifney off and she's slowly getting there. I have to revert occasionally but generally she's a lot better, still, i wont ever get rid of it because like i said above, she's a flighty youngster. . Would you believe i love her to pieces

Feel i should add - I have tried alternative methods; leading in a bridle, in a dually, rope over the nose - all of which were tried with different lengths of rope, from a normal lead rope, to a 6ft lead rope, 12ft and finally a lunge line. All horses are different, and all take to things differently, I suppose Gem has just taken to the chiffney and it suits both of us.

 

[Marydoll]

I also disagree with the comments that people who have not used chifneys have not had to handle difficult/dangerous horses. People have different ways of doing things and I think to suggest you would have to use a chifney is very closed minded, just because it is somebody's choice does not mean others aren't capable of handling without one!

Agree with this.

 

[Tinypony]

Yes, the horse was mental, so a different approach was required. No way would a chiffney "sharpen the teeth" if that is being suggested, teeth have to be sharp enough to chew up fibrous forage, so I don't know what you are trying to say. He could not be completely mental or he would not allow you to examine his mouth.
My own boy used to be very spooky at night, and even whether he was behind and or/to the side, he would jump in to me, I handled him in a bridle, but not a chiffney, anyway he did not rear and was not aggressive, just spooky. He did not suffer sore gums or sharp teeth and has a lovely soft mouth, so this form of handling has not hurt him or damaged him.

The equine dentist who visited said something about the chiffney having damaged his teeth and his gums were bruised blue, but I can't quote details because this was some time ago and I didn't take notes. I would guess that he had the damage in his mouth because he was a very scared horse and his adrenalin overtook his physical responses, so he would take off at speed regardless of what was in his mouth. A chiffney would be pretty dire in those circumstances. I am not talking about YOUR horse, I know nothing about any effects chiffney use has had on YOUR horse, I was speaking from experience of a remedial horse that I dealt with, and I think I made that pretty clear.

 

[wizbit]

I think chiffneys are disgusting. I have seen a horse being "handled" with one, horse still went up (yes, even with a chiffney in! shock horror...), pulled handler off feet, handler had rope pulled out of hands, horse ran off and the results were not pretty...

I too have had a horse who would rear / capriole / launch off all 4 feet sharply sideways and pull me clean off my feet. Had numerous people telling me i should put my horse in a chiffney to lead. There was no way I would contemplate this, or a bridle (results the same if horse gets loose, as he would). Someone leant me a knotted, string type halter, this is the only thing that has worked. Have also had to re-establish our groundwork, but this is the only thing my horse respected and, if he had got away from me, wouldn't have ripped his jaw to shreds and scarred him for life from the memory. Thankfully I have control with the halter.

Its just a pet hate of mine that some people immmediately ramp it up if horse not behaving. Rather than take it back to handling issues and work on these. Like people who wear spurs on a "lazy" horse ... wtf!!! so when horse goes dead to the spurs as well as your whip and flapping legs, what are you gonna use next??!! cattle prods stuck to your heels?

 

[Enfys]

Given the choice of faffing about with a halter (be that dually, maxwell or whatever other one you choose, I'm not fussy which) that a horse takes no notice of, or a chifney, metal noseband or chain when a horse is being a dangerous arse personally I'd go for the chain/noseband or chifney any day.

I have horses that are lambs with a chain on, take the chain off and they are sods because they know they can be, horses are not stupid, the majority of the time I'll bet a chifney/chain/noseband never comes into use at all when it is used on a regular basis.

If a horse is being dangerous you don't have time to do the nicey nice "Oh do behave, there's a pretty boy" twaddle, you need some control there and then, once you have a semblance of control then you can go on and do groundwork, you can't do that if you are broken in a hospital bed or cold in the ground

Every scenario is different and it bugs the heck out of me when usage of a piece of equipment is condemned without knowing the situation. I don't rate Duallys at all, but that doesn't mean that they don't work for a lot of horses/handlers.

 

[eatmoremincepies]

So, letting a horse run round you while hanging onto a dually with continual pressure until the horse stops, taking a few circles, is in your opinion less damaging than one split second action on a horse's mouth, whereupon they behave instantly?

I have used both pressure halters and chifneys, and I know which stresses the horse less, and has an instant reaction. There is no lasting damage with a chifney, it's an instantaneous reaction.

Sorry to point this out, but if you are using a dually correctly you would not be "hanging onto a dually with continual pressure until the horse stops, taking a few circles".

I think there are two parts to the chifney/pressure halter debate:
1. A tool that gives you extra "strength" for more control
2. Specific techniques for using the tool to train the behaviour out of the horse (using timing, angles, bend, body language, physiological observation in conjunction with the halter).

I use duallys and rope halter and teach other people how to use them effectively. Chifneys are OK with me as long as they are in very experienced hands and are a short term management solution. But honestly, if you add the techniques to the extra "strength", the problem can very quickly be dealt with at the root and there is no need for a chifney. Have done this on big dressage horses, eventers, cobs who tank off, PRE stallions, allsorts, as have many others who have been trained to do it.

I know a lot of yards use chifneys because they don't have time to train the horses to lead better, which seems a bit of a lost opportunity to me, given how training a horse's brain to lead properly (rather than just his body) has a lot of knock-on effects on their general behaviour and manners, and will make them easier to handle in the end.. But then it took me 3 months to get around to teaching my last horse to stand still for mounting, so people in glass houses etc! lol

 

[LaurenBay]

Chifneys do have a place BUT it needs to be used correctly, otherwise it will do more damadge then good. I would have no problem using one on mine (not that she needs it) but if ever she started playing up, I would use one, short term only! in the meantime, I would get her in the school and do some groundwork.

I would never use one longterm, you are not solving anything. The Horse stops playing around as they associate playing up with discomfort caused from the chifney. They don't respect your space or you as a handler, Just the chifney. A Horse should respect whoevers leading it, no matter what it's being led in.

I used to bring in a womans Horse, he was a big 16.3hh WB 6YO. I led him with a chifney, but explained to the owner that she would need to do some groundwork on the side, if he really was to start behaving better. Groundwork was never done. Horse got worse and worse. I never touched him again.

 

[Marydoll]

Given the choice of faffing about with a halter (be that dually, maxwell or whatever other one you choose, I'm not fussy which) that a horse takes no notice of, or a chifney, metal noseband or chain when a horse is being a dangerous arse personally I'd go for the chain/noseband or chifney any day.

I have horses that are lambs with a chain on, take the chain off and they are sods because they know they can be, horses are not stupid, the majority of the time I'll bet a chifney/chain/noseband never comes into use at all when it is used on a regular basis.

If a horse is being dangerous you don't have time to do the nicey nice "Oh do behave, there's a pretty boy" twaddle, you need some control there and then, once you have a semblance of control then you can go on and do groundwork, you can't do that if you are broken in a hospital bed or cold in the ground

Every scenario is different and it bugs the heck out of me when usage of a piece of equipment is condemned without knowing the situation. I don't rate Duallys at all, but that doesn't mean that they don't work for a lot of horses/handlers.

While i agree with some of what you say, id take my rope halter over a chifney any day and it is as effective as a chifney if used properly.
I think it boils down to what you prefer and what is effective for you.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Nope if they are stood correctly and spook they head for the open space, that is of course providing you've got a long enough length of rope that they know they can do so, rather than 6ft lead or reins over head in which case theyve got now where to go.

I also like being close enough that should a horse spook hes not going the space to get up momentum to wallop me with any great force - same principle that say im doing my friends horses leg straps up, she likes to lift her back foot up, i stand so im squashed into her thigh so if she does kick all I get is a bump, rather than the massive bruise and pain of a kick which has reached full momentum and leverage.

gobbledeegook?

 

[cptrayes]

Why do so many on here seem to recommend a chiffney for groundwork issues?

Aside from the obvious that its the actual groundwork and horse/ handler relationship that is at fault the damage they do to the mouth, which is so sensitive and you obviously want it to remain so for riding, is horrendous. Also it seems to be the first port of call for many rather than looking at the bigger picture of what has caused the behaviour in the first place or going to a pressure/release headcollar etc

Discuss!

I've used a chiffney often over many years. I've never damaged a horse's mouth with one yet. Don't use one if you don't know what you are doing.

 

[Miss L Toe]

The equine dentist who visited said something about the chiffney having damaged his teeth and his gums were bruised blue, but I can't quote details because this was some time ago and I didn't take notes. I would guess that he had the damage in his mouth because he was a very scared horse and his adrenalin overtook his physical responses, so he would take off at speed regardless of what was in his mouth. A chiffney would be pretty dire in those circumstances. I am not talking about YOUR horse, I know nothing about any effects chiffney use has had on YOUR horse, I was speaking from experience of a remedial horse that I dealt with, and I think I made that pretty clear.

Yes, you have experience of one horse, enough said.
Personally I would not let a person with limited experience deal with a difficult horse.

 

[Tinypony]

Although I don't use chiffneys (and I have handled some "difficult" horses), I understand why some people use them.
I think that the horse I mentioned had his mouth damaged because a chiffney wasn't the right tool to use in his case. Because he tended to blind panic, over-riding normal reactions to pain, he caused himself too much damage. "Experienced hands" can only have an impact if the horse responds to how those hands operate. In this case, because the horse went into that unseeing panic mode where he hardly knew that there was a person on the end of the rope, the chiffney became, for want of better words, a blunt instrument.
When I took the chiffney out of the picture, control of him physically was easy, and I'm not sure why given that he would run straight through the pain of metal in his mouth. I gave his owner the chiffney to take away home with her and put him in a rope halter. Now they are going to feel pretty bad if you run into them hard, which is what he did, but unlike how he behaved in the chiffney, he didn't repeat it. Getting control of him mentally as well as physically was a much longer process of course.