Child riding in dutch gag and standing martingale?!?

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ScarlettLady

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I attended a pony club instructors accreditation evening last night at my local branch.
In the first ride 'D level' there was a tiny 8 or 9 year old girl, very petit frame, on a huge 14hh dales/fell type pony, looking very much over horsed.
The girl rode extremely well, however the pony had a standing martingale and a dutch gag (reins on the 2nd ring). :eek:
I was pretty horrified at this tack at this level, but didn't question it as there were people there with years more experience than I have, yet they didn't question it either.

I appreciate that the child needs to be safe, but if the pony needs that much 'cr*p' to control it, should the child be riding it at that level? :rolleyes:
Bit contraversial I guess, I am not a fan of gadgets and rubbish at any level, although appreciate that sometimes it can be safer.

Any views appreciated!
 
If the child rode it quietly without socking it in the teeth and managed to keep control then I don't have a problem with it.

A bolting pony on the other hand would be a different matter :rolleyes:
 
My thoughts however what I forgot to add was that child was also riding with a stick which had to be used on more than one occasion for impulsion :confused: , and horse didn't appear overly forward going, however I've never seen it before and don't know its history. :o

Thanks just wondered what other people thought;)
 
Well, back in 1988 my brother had a 13.2hh dun QH/Welsh type. He was 18, and had previously been a show jumping pony. He had also been 'rapped' and was windy of poles, men, clippers, scissors and gates. He used speed and his strength to show how windy he was. 'Brandy' broke my dads hand one day! My brother, who was 9 at the time, rode him in a gag bit, grackle noseband and running martingale. The gag was then changed to a dutch gag and on the bottom ring. In those days it was a new bit and got a lot of 'looks'. No amount of re-schooling would have had any effect on him, he was who he was. The pony went very well in it, never showed discomfort, and my brother adored him and rode him well. The PC DC was furious, banned the pony being ridden in such 'contraptions'. Snaffle went in, pony was verging on 'dangerously strong'. DC then changed her mind, gag went back in, and peace resumed.
So, whatever people think, there could just be a reason that child is riding in such tack, and from personal experience I think that people within reasons can go against the grain.
 
I dont see why people have to pull other peoples tack apart?

If the kid rode well and wasnt hindering the pony - why comment?
Or is it because the pony didnt go in the pony club stereotype snaffle and cavesson bridle?

As for her being small on it - it could well be a hand me down from an older sibling? I know plenty of parents that would rather keep a big - but safe, trusted pony for later use.
 
Vicki_Krystal said:
I dont see why people have to pull other peoples tack apart?

If the kid rode well and wasnt hindering the pony - why comment?
Or is it because the pony didnt go in the pony club stereotype snaffle and cavesson bridle?

As for her being small on it - it could well be a hand me down from an older sibling? I know plenty of parents that would rather keep a big - but safe, trusted pony for later use.
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Because i personally disagree with this, I wanted other peoples opinions to see the bigger picture, as to why maybe. I don't have kids and am fairly new to pc teaching at rallies, so just wanted to have other ppls opinions before i go out and face a child in my own ride with tack like this.
My thought is if the child is going to ride in them now, when they are learning to ride will they accept this as the norm for the future?

Having been the child on the pony too big and it messing around, hence losing my confidence at an early age, I don't always think thats the way forwards.

I didn't want to get at anyone, just wanted to hear other ppls views :o
 
It is possible, that pony is usually trustworthy and steady (hence the need for the stick), but can be spooky/strong in certain situations/paces. OH's pony is like that, dobbin one minute, off with no brakes the next, depending on mood, spooky object etc. Sharer (lightweight teen) rides her in a gag (supervised), because if she goes, sharer has no chance on earth of stopping her in a snaffle. I & OH ride her in a snaffle and can stop easily, but we're stronger and more experienced. In time, sharer will be physically strong enough and have enough tricks up her sleeve to deal with unexpected spooks/onward bound issues in excited canter, but not yet.
 
Vicki_Krystal said:
I dont see why people have to pull other peoples tack apart?

If the kid rode well and wasnt hindering the pony - why comment?
Or is it because the pony didnt go in the pony club stereotype snaffle and cavesson bridle?

As for her being small on it - it could well be a hand me down from an older sibling? I know plenty of parents that would rather keep a big - but safe, trusted pony for later use.
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this
as long as the kid rode well and the pony wasnt compramised then fair enough
 
becca_norrey said:
Because i personally disagree with this, I wanted other peoples opinions to see the bigger picture, as to why maybe. I don't have kids and am fairly new to pc teaching at rallies, so just wanted to have other ppls opinions before i go out and face a child in my own ride with tack like this.
My thought is if the child is going to ride in them now, when they are learning to ride will they accept this as the norm for the future?

Having been the child on the pony too big and it messing around, hence losing my confidence at an early age, I don't always think thats the way forwards.

I didn't want to get at anyone, just wanted to hear other ppls views :o
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No most do not see it as the 'norm' as when the child grows and gets stronger / more familiar with the pony then the tack can be changed to something milder.
 
Shocking. As a child, they are still 'learning to ride'. I am grieved to see so many severe bits, martingales, crops and spurs used by children. At a recent schools showjumping competition I took our team to, I was aghast to see one jumping in a gag, standing martingale, and spurs!!!
'In my day'... if I couldn't ride a pony in a snaffle and no other aids, then I was not a good enough rider for the pony.
It is a sad fact that due to increasing costs of good livery yards and riding stables, more and more children and adults are riding horses that have simply not been schooled/trained well enough. More and more people are breaking horses/ponies themselves and ending up with problem rides.
In this case the horse was totally unsuitable for the child.
 
Im a realist - these days most parents cannot afford 'pony club' ponies as they come at a price!

I disagree that the situation above is 'shocking' as you state the child rode well - if however, the child was hanging off its teeth and the pony looked upset by the tack being used then that is the time to say something.

I have taught a family of 4 children to ride of differing ages - all on the same 14hh pony!

I have also advised another family that the pony that suited their butch son did not suit their younger, smaller daughter...

What im saying is, i dont totally disagree with you - it very much depends on the combination of the pony and the rider.
 
Personally I disagree with putting children that young on horses that may be unsafe in the first place. They do not need that kind of experience until they are physically stronger and able to handle and understand the pony's issues imo. Children also may be unable to understand the tack they are riding in and may be more heavy handed with it than is necessary, resulting in a more poorly behaved and sore pony than in the beginning. Yes children should have the experiences but I doubt this is necessary when they are nine, still learning (at a lower level) and are physically unable. I just think that children should be confident with what they are doing so as they are able to improve at a greater pace and fully enjoy what they are doing.

The above isnt all related to OP, past experiences mainly! :)
 
Don't see the problem TBH!

I found a pic of me when I was little (8 or 9) hunting and I had a phelhem on the bottom rein (i.e. no D's and no top rein) and... wait for it... spurs!!! He was only a 12 hands welshie too! Didn't do us much harm and I'm not one for over doing it on the gadgets now.

Maybe you could make suggestions when your teaching and then you might find out why people use what they use?
 
I think the ponies breeding probably has a certain amount to do with it too, they can be bloomin strong... if they want to, however in equal measure they can be very lazy when they want to too. If the child was riding nicely and the set up worked well I think it is appropriate they have the best toolkit available.

I know I am an adult, I have a 14.2 welsh, I am certainly big enough to hold him in a snaffle most of the time, and he is schooled/SJ in one normally. However if the mood takes him a snaffle is rendered useless. The gag also functions very well to stop him attempting to spook quite so much, he just doesn't bother in it so much even when on a long rein. So if a small kid was on him they would likely appreciate this small advantage of not shooting sideways at every yellow flower for his own entertainment. I also ride him in spurs and have been known to hold 2 schooling whips on his lazy days so although I can see it might seem odd there is reasoning behind it through much trial and error (had him 6 years now).

I guess I think that if it works for the combination and both rider and pony seem happy there is nothing wrong with it.
 
I still stand by my comments - I would be interested to see how much these equines are ridden/schooled?
We have friends with a national award winning QH ranch in Nebraska - they are broken in and ridden on in a snaffle, and only ridden in a western bit once schooled well and by an experienced rider. Aids such as schooling whips, spurs, pelhams/double bridles/gags, are meant to be used by experienced riders to give subtle communication for advanced riding.
I would be the first to admit if my horse is being a problem - be that from spooking to being strong, then it would be my fault for not riding it enough/properly/groundwork/asking too much for their training.
As a school teacher, horse rider, dog owner etc.... You get out what you put in. Short cuts don't work long term.
 
lizijj said:
Shocking. As a child, they are still 'learning to ride'. I am grieved to see so many severe bits, martingales, crops and spurs used by children. At a recent schools showjumping competition I took our team to, I was aghast to see one jumping in a gag, standing martingale, and spurs!!!
'In my day'... if I couldn't ride a pony in a snaffle and no other aids, then I was not a good enough rider for the pony.
It is a sad fact that due to increasing costs of good livery yards and riding stables, more and more children and adults are riding horses that have simply not been schooled/trained well enough. More and more people are breaking horses/ponies themselves and ending up with problem rides.
In this case the horse was totally unsuitable for the child.
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Hmmm, well my pony (as mentioned above), was 20 odd years old by the time I got him. He came from John Whit's yard where his kids learned to ride on him, not sure if that makes him well schooled or not but he knew his job for sure. I think I was a pretty good little rider when I was a kid, better than now! But he was a keen little fecker out hunting and I needed something I could stop in! Think the bottom rein was probably an on the day modification!
 
I would never buy a pony that needed a dutch gag and standing martingale for my child :confused: So it seems odd that this situation arose in the first place! But I suppose if this pony is dangerous to ride without them, there's really not much they can do! Still seems a shame though.
 
Personally, I don't like to see kids' ponies in severe bits and gadgets and I think a lot of what's used is used because it's in fashion. Also, some children have to ride what's available to them, whether suitable or not.

But as long as they are fitted properly, best to keep your opinions to yourself and keep the peace!
 
I go with the old thing that in the wrong hands even a snaffle can do a lot of damage.

Its not so much the bit but the rider, and I know 12 year olds at my PC who could probably ride my own horse better than I could.
You never know it may just have been left in that combo because it needs it for jumping but can also be ridden lightly in it for schooling. I have a fell X and they are bl**dy strong when they want to be. Also nothing wrong if its a 'family pony' unfortunatly not everyone can afford ponies for each of their kids.

Not saying its right but prehaps observe this rider and pony further before any suggestions.
 
Just to stir it up I believe the dutch gag is technically a member of the snaffle family? (I may well be wrong?) ;). But I had my pony from when I was 10 years old (still have him now), he was a hand me down from my older sister and could be very difficult no matter how many lessons and if I was doing any form of jumping or group work I would have to ride him in a dutch gag (and before that it was a kimble wick) with a flash as he would often bolt and the cross and lock his jaw so that anything that didn't have any poll action was useless! But with the gag he respected it and would allow you to ride him properly without it you were hauling his teeth out! Surely its better for the horse to be in a slightly stronger bit where you can be quieter then in a snaffle yanking the mouth just because anything other then a snaffle means you can't ride? IMO not all horses can be ridden safely in a snaffle!
 
Very interesting post this, and one that is probably discussing issues which are vitality important to the future of horse riding, because these young riders are the future.

To me, what many of the replies highlight, are the simply appalling attitudes to training ponies and children to ride properly.

Anyone who feels that strong bits and other gadgets are truly needed to control a pony and then put a child on board, are just carrying on with the culture of poorly trained horses and riders in this country.

If people cannot take the time to train a pony so that it doesn't need this rubbish, do equestrianism a favour and find another hobby for your child.

People keep talking about children having to be strong to control these ponies, why? If the pony is light and responsive, no child needs to be hauling on the reins, and as for spurs and whips, lunacy.

It doesn't matter what you as an adult do, its too late for the closed minds that do what they've always done, and cannot ride for toffee, but bringing children on properly is so important, both for them, horses and the industry.
 
Personally, I like to see horses in as simple a tack as possible, but you do have to be realistic sometimes. There are all sorts of reasons why the child might be riding that particular pony, and in that particular tack. Her own pony might be lame and she could be riding a sibling's pony etc, etc. Or they have might just have acquired the pony and it has always been ridden in that tack and they don't want to change it straightaway until they know the pony better. Ponies do often get quite crafty and learn how to take advantage of smaller, lighter riders and a stronger bit is often a useful, hopefully temporary measure to ensure the rider stays in charge of the situation.

When my daughter got her last pony, she rode her initially in a two ring dutch gag a lot of the time - then as she got more confident she reverted to a snaffle. It hasn't led her to believe that 'strong bits' are the norm, or ruined her riding skills forever, etc. In fact she went on to school that pony so well that she ended up in the placings at the RC and PC National Championships in dressage.

To the OP, you asked what you should do if you are faced with a pony in such tack in a PC ride that you are instructing. First thing is to have chat with the rider about how long she has had the pony, why it is ridden in that tack etc, and obviously check that the tack is fitted correctly. Then when the lesson commences check that the rider is riding nicely and not hauling on the Dutch gag etc. If pony and child look happy then I don't think really you need to do much else, although if you wanted you could say to her at the end that it would be lovely to see the pony going in a milder bit once they are more confident/established or more schooling has been done.
 
AndySpooner said:
Very interesting post this, and one that is probably discussing issues which are vitality important to the future of horse riding, because these young riders are the future.

To me, what many of the replies highlight, are the simply appalling attitudes to training ponies and children to ride properly.

Anyone who feels that strong bits and other gadgets are truly needed to control a pony and then put a child on board, are just carrying on with the culture of poorly trained horses and riders in this country.

If people cannot take the time to train a pony so that it doesn't need this rubbish, do equestrianism a favour and find another hobby for your child.

People keep talking about children having to be strong to control these ponies, why? If the pony is light and responsive, no child needs to be hauling on the reins, and as for spurs and whips, lunacy.

It doesn't matter what you as an adult do, its too late for the closed minds that do what they've always done, and cannot ride for toffee, but bringing children on properly is so important, both for them, horses and the industry.
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In a perfect world Andy we would all ride animals just right for us, they would all be lovely and light and we would all be able to afford the instruction that we need.I agree, there is a huge amount of very poor riding/schooling done.Things happen though. A pony may have learned evasions because they have been over faced jumping/or frightened of something and like us cope with the best way they can. A TRUE bolter, rather than a horse that shoots off occasionally though is a professionals ride and can be quite dangerous!
The next rider may have that to deal with.On top of which finding GOOD instruction is the devils own game.At least 50% of the so called instructors I have met were useless and it gives me no pleasure to say that.Perhaps the answer to this is to ask, in a friendly and non judgemental fasion why the pony is being ridden in this tack.If you stay friendly and non judgemental you may, gradually, begin to change things! Good luck.
 
I would be the first to admit if my horse is being a problem - be that from spooking to being strong, then it would be my fault for not riding it enough/properly/groundwork/asking too much for their training.
As a school teacher, horse rider, dog owner etc.... You get out what you put in. Short cuts don't work long term.
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This and what Andy Spooner said. Far better to spend more time training the horse to go right without using gadgets and strong bits.

My horse came to me in a Dutch gag--and I was an adult novice. Now I ride her in a drop cheek snaffle. If she's feeling a bit naughty on the spring grass, the flash noseband goes back on, but I haven't gone back to the Dutch gag. I think it's especially important that young children learn to ride without relying on strong bits, etc., even if that means borrowing a more school masterly horse for the job. What I find very sad is young children riding young green horses in Dutch gags on the third ring. :eek:
 
In an ideal world everyone would have the perfect pony from a young age. One in a snaffle and cavesson but also moved off the leg.

How many ponies do you know like this? I know of one! Its the only pony I know out of 100s that I could sit on and ride around a xc course and go for a gallop than immediately after a small child could get on and he would look after them.

I do like to see ponies in the simplest tack possible but the riders need to feel safe and have fun because after all that is what pony club is about. As long as pony isn't in pain or upset I don't see a problem.
 
eahotson said:
In a perfect world Andy we would all ride animals just right for us, they would all be lovely and light and we would all be able to afford the instruction that we need.I agree, there is a huge amount of very poor riding/schooling done.Things happen though. A pony may have learned evasions because they have been over faced jumping/or frightened of something and like us cope with the best way they can. A TRUE bolter, rather than a horse that shoots off occasionally though is a professionals ride and can be quite dangerous!
The next rider may have that to deal with.On top of which finding GOOD instruction is the devils own game.At least 50% of the so called instructors I have met were useless and it gives me no pleasure to say that.Perhaps the answer to this is to ask, in a friendly and non judgemental fasion why the pony is being ridden in this tack.If you stay friendly and non judgemental you may, gradually, begin to change things! Good luck.
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Perhaps I do tend to be a little forthright, lol.

However, to present a child with a pony as you describe is foolhardy and detrimental. The fault here lies with the adult. Training a pony to be responsive and light is not brain surgery, and pushing ponies beyond their limits to induce such lack of confidence is again the adults failing.

There are millions of excuses why training the pony takes second place to shortcuts, from lack of ability to laziness.

If a child cannot handle the pony on the ground without being trampled or dragged then they should not get on.

If the pony cannot be ridden by a child at all paces in a headcollar then the pony needs training and retraining until it can.
 
i'm not a fan of lots of gadgets either, and the OP describes tack that is abit OTT IMO. However there are no doubt many other factors that may have influenced the decision that the adult took as to what tack to put the horse in. We don't know the whole situation, but i would say if the horse needs all that tack maybe it isn't idseal for a child to be riding...
 
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