Rollin
Well-Known Member
Anyone got their copy yet? Takes a while for the carrier pigeon to get to me.
Comments please?
Comments please?
Cleveland Bay Debate in this weeks HHO
- Thread starter Rollin
- Start date
harveysmom
Well-Known Member
its amazing that the only publicity the cleveland bay can get in horse & hound is bad publicity
ROW it was a vote talk about a storm in a teacup
and the best example of a cleveland bays contribution to equine sport was from 1980 im sure it would have been better to mention the clevelands out winning now
another missed opportunity
ROW it was a vote talk about a storm in a teacup
and the best example of a cleveland bays contribution to equine sport was from 1980 im sure it would have been better to mention the clevelands out winning now
another missed opportunity
Rollin
Well-Known Member
The problem is that not enough are competed and when they are not enough is done to publicise their success.
I recently took my 3YO to her first ever youngstock class in France for potential endurance horses. The judges did not know what to make of this Valkyrie in a class of Arabian Wood Nymphs!!
I have just seen the result, not so good for paces - a CB with a huge trot needs a bit more space than we had in the small indoor arena - but two top marks for conformation were my Shagya filly and CB filly.
My CB was much admired by the French spectators, many came to see her and ask what her breeding was.
Amazingly when I moved to France in 2005 the CB was not recognised as a pedigree horse so excluded from most competitions in France. By 2009 neither CBHS nor DEFRA had made any progress whatsoever with the French National Stud.
It was a case of DIY Rollin - a private letter sent to a French resident, winged its way through the Govt, and four weeks later I received a phone call from the office of the French Prime Minister.
It took 8 weeks to get the pedigree status recognised so now CB's can compete in France and there is a potential export market for UK breeders. I have turned away potential buyers from both France and Germany.
I recently took my 3YO to her first ever youngstock class in France for potential endurance horses. The judges did not know what to make of this Valkyrie in a class of Arabian Wood Nymphs!!
I have just seen the result, not so good for paces - a CB with a huge trot needs a bit more space than we had in the small indoor arena - but two top marks for conformation were my Shagya filly and CB filly.
My CB was much admired by the French spectators, many came to see her and ask what her breeding was.
Amazingly when I moved to France in 2005 the CB was not recognised as a pedigree horse so excluded from most competitions in France. By 2009 neither CBHS nor DEFRA had made any progress whatsoever with the French National Stud.
It was a case of DIY Rollin - a private letter sent to a French resident, winged its way through the Govt, and four weeks later I received a phone call from the office of the French Prime Minister.
It took 8 weeks to get the pedigree status recognised so now CB's can compete in France and there is a potential export market for UK breeders. I have turned away potential buyers from both France and Germany.
ClevelandBayUSA
New User
The Cleveland Bay is critically endangered. By and large, they are fantastic all-around horses and good for low-level competition. Here in USA I see them occupying a market niche similar to the draft crosses you see in the hunt field, in low level eventing and dressage. The performance flag is flown by the partbreds -- Mazetto (bred in NZ, now in USA), and the UK-bred Crown Alliance and Spring Pascal, as well as and others.
Former CB horse inspectors were among those supporting the proposed changes, seeking to restore the quality of the breed that they felt may be declining due to the severely restricted gene pool.
The piece inaccurately characterized the debate, stating "Members of the Cleveland Bay Horse Society have seen off attempts to introduce thoroughbred blood to the stud book.But those in favour say they now fear for the breed's survival..."
Actually, the breed has been tied to the Thoroughbred for its entire history. Look up the sire lines of nearly any pure stallion -- they almost all trace to the Byerley Turk, one of the founding sires of the Thoroughbred. There has been further influx of TB blood throughout the breed's history -- with the inclusion of Yorkshire Coach Horses as well as through the existing "grading up" process, which is prominent in the bloodlines of the majority of Premium stallions, including those used by opponents of changes to the grading register rules.
The piece also states that the membership voted 60-40 against certain provisions of the proposed changes. It neglected to mention that 60 percent of the membership voted in favor of reducing the number of generations required for pure breeding prior to entrance into the full stud book, indicating majority support for some aspect of "grading up".
Portrayal of the discussion was further skewed -- H&H quotes former president Henry Edmunds as stating, "" It was completely insane...Some individuals have tried to undermine the breed by trying to make it more commercial."
Proponents of the changes did not seek to change the breed standard. However, widening commercial appeal for the breed is a necessary ingredient for its survival -- otherwise how do you convince people to continue breeding them?
Former CB horse inspectors were among those supporting the proposed changes, seeking to restore the quality of the breed that they felt may be declining due to the severely restricted gene pool.
The piece inaccurately characterized the debate, stating "Members of the Cleveland Bay Horse Society have seen off attempts to introduce thoroughbred blood to the stud book.But those in favour say they now fear for the breed's survival..."
Actually, the breed has been tied to the Thoroughbred for its entire history. Look up the sire lines of nearly any pure stallion -- they almost all trace to the Byerley Turk, one of the founding sires of the Thoroughbred. There has been further influx of TB blood throughout the breed's history -- with the inclusion of Yorkshire Coach Horses as well as through the existing "grading up" process, which is prominent in the bloodlines of the majority of Premium stallions, including those used by opponents of changes to the grading register rules.
The piece also states that the membership voted 60-40 against certain provisions of the proposed changes. It neglected to mention that 60 percent of the membership voted in favor of reducing the number of generations required for pure breeding prior to entrance into the full stud book, indicating majority support for some aspect of "grading up".
Portrayal of the discussion was further skewed -- H&H quotes former president Henry Edmunds as stating, "" It was completely insane...Some individuals have tried to undermine the breed by trying to make it more commercial."
Proponents of the changes did not seek to change the breed standard. However, widening commercial appeal for the breed is a necessary ingredient for its survival -- otherwise how do you convince people to continue breeding them?
harveysmom
Well-Known Member
i agree with your comments,nobody wants to change the cleveland bay, you could achieve this with selective breeding within the existing gene pool for instance i have two pure clevelands standing at over 17hh well above the breed standard with no outside blood this was achievable. all those in favour of the change are worried about is the existing gene pool being to limited which may lead to defects within the breed lets stop in before it starts
if foreign breeders of yesteryear saw the cleveland bay as a way to improve their bloodlines ie: oldenburg,hanoverian without problems why cant the cleveland
if we sit on our hands the cleveland bay will die out and we wont have to worry about introducing outside blood
also my belief is that the grading register should be scrapped there are not enough pure cleveland bays to allow us to be that fussy
on a final note if you look at old photos of cleveland bays they have already changed so all this being careful hasnt made a jot of difference
one member at the AGM mentioned some incorrect registrations in the stud book
Rollin
Well-Known Member
I have not yet seen the article so cannot comment on how it was presented, I hope it portrayed both views in a balanced way.
I was asked for my own opinion, which is that we should retain the pure-bred Cleveland Bay but that we should have a part bred stud book, which currently does not exist. I actually ran a poll on this forum asking if people felt we should have a part-bred stud book.
I am surprised that those who advocate change to the Grading Register, many of whom sat for years on the Council and on the Breed Committee, have been happy for part-bred Cleveland Bays to carry the colours of other stud books resulting in both a loss of income and kudos for the breed.
I actually received two letters from protagonists with their reasons for wanting change but when I wrote to one ex-stallion inspector asking what evidence was available to support the statements made I received no reply.
As far as I am aware these stallion inspectors have never ever produced a document scoring stallions approved - even for members and that includes stallions who have been awarded Premium status. So it is difficult for any of us to make a judgment.
Whereas the results of my Shagya stallion's grading are published on the Shagya France website for the world to see.
As for the origins of the CB, my own pure bred stallion in common with others descends from the Byerly Turk but that was in 1679!!! The Shagya Arab is 90% Arabian and is also a rare breed. The stud book is virtually a closed stud book and has been since the importation of the foundation stallion Shagya in 1836, although the stud itself existed prior to that date. I hear no calls to make changes to the stud book.
What the Cleveland Bay lacks is not quality or talent but marketing. I have long advocated that we should see CB's competing against other breeds and not just in CB classes. We also need to celebrate success.
I was asked for my own opinion, which is that we should retain the pure-bred Cleveland Bay but that we should have a part bred stud book, which currently does not exist. I actually ran a poll on this forum asking if people felt we should have a part-bred stud book.
I am surprised that those who advocate change to the Grading Register, many of whom sat for years on the Council and on the Breed Committee, have been happy for part-bred Cleveland Bays to carry the colours of other stud books resulting in both a loss of income and kudos for the breed.
I actually received two letters from protagonists with their reasons for wanting change but when I wrote to one ex-stallion inspector asking what evidence was available to support the statements made I received no reply.
As far as I am aware these stallion inspectors have never ever produced a document scoring stallions approved - even for members and that includes stallions who have been awarded Premium status. So it is difficult for any of us to make a judgment.
Whereas the results of my Shagya stallion's grading are published on the Shagya France website for the world to see.
As for the origins of the CB, my own pure bred stallion in common with others descends from the Byerly Turk but that was in 1679!!! The Shagya Arab is 90% Arabian and is also a rare breed. The stud book is virtually a closed stud book and has been since the importation of the foundation stallion Shagya in 1836, although the stud itself existed prior to that date. I hear no calls to make changes to the stud book.
What the Cleveland Bay lacks is not quality or talent but marketing. I have long advocated that we should see CB's competing against other breeds and not just in CB classes. We also need to celebrate success.
Doncella
Well-Known Member
Coming from the left field here. Wasn't the Yorkshire Coach Horse a recognised TBxCB? If so did it have a studbook?
Personally I don't want to see the CB lose its identity but recognition of partbreds would raise its profile.
Personally I don't want to see the CB lose its identity but recognition of partbreds would raise its profile.
Rollin
Well-Known Member
Yes it was. The first sport horse? The Yorkshire Coach Horse had a separate stud book, which was closed in 1936. Pure bred CB stallions were always allowed to be registered in the YCH stud book because it was found that too much 'blood' did not provide the quality of horse desired at that time.
We need Henry Edmund's expertise in this debate.
harveysmom
Well-Known Member
my part-bred cleveland is registered with the cleveland bay horse society her bloodlines are in her passport just as all other registered part-breds are i dont understand the need for a part-bred studbook, could you clarify why you feel this is important
also my pure clevelands comete against other breeds i dont just stick to cleveland classes i make no allowances for them being cleveland they can do the job the same as any breed
im not alone in this, all competing clevelands do other classes, they do quite well
as a matter of fact my clevelands do better away from cleveland classes
changing the subject,we have to hope the cleveland bay doesnt go the same way as the yorkshire coach horse
also my pure clevelands comete against other breeds i dont just stick to cleveland classes i make no allowances for them being cleveland they can do the job the same as any breed
im not alone in this, all competing clevelands do other classes, they do quite well
as a matter of fact my clevelands do better away from cleveland classes
changing the subject,we have to hope the cleveland bay doesnt go the same way as the yorkshire coach horse
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Rollin
Well-Known Member
Because members and breeders have no access to the 'register' so although your passport may have your horse's breeding on it - it is your passport. I cannot check breeding of our part-breds but I do have a copy of the main stud book, which I use a great deal.
My part-bred filly is registered with the AES.
My part-bred filly is registered with the AES.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
It would appear to me that the ONLY answer to the problem of the CB's very limited numbers and bloodlines IS a Grade-up register similar to that we have with the Irish Draught. To be a Grade-up mare, an ID x mare must have 3 Class 1/2 graded ID grand-parents - and the 4th grand-parent must be TB or Connemara. (The Connemara would not be included with the Cleveland Bay obviously.) The Grade-up mares are inspected and vetted - and their progeny - by a graded pure-bred stallion - are then eligible to be graded as 'pure'! Obviously introducing TB blood CAN result in a deviation from type, so inspection is needed!
To solve the problem of pure-bred mares (and stallions) not being QUITE good enough in the eyes of the Inspectors, they can be graded Class 2 - as long as they pass vetting. Their progeny are eligible Class 1 on inspection. This stops bloodlines being lost - but also ensures that horses with genetic vet. faults do not enter the breeding herd.
If a Grade-up register was introduced, far thinking breeders could select strictly 'suitable' TB mares to be used. (Presumably all bay - and of the right amount of type, substance and temperament!) Colts should be gelded and will add to the performance horses out there flying the CB flag.
To solve the problem of pure-bred mares (and stallions) not being QUITE good enough in the eyes of the Inspectors, they can be graded Class 2 - as long as they pass vetting. Their progeny are eligible Class 1 on inspection. This stops bloodlines being lost - but also ensures that horses with genetic vet. faults do not enter the breeding herd.
If a Grade-up register was introduced, far thinking breeders could select strictly 'suitable' TB mares to be used. (Presumably all bay - and of the right amount of type, substance and temperament!) Colts should be gelded and will add to the performance horses out there flying the CB flag.
ClevelandBayUSA
New User
Janet -- what you say is very sensible.
There is a grading register for mares and has always been one. Two of the proposals discussed would have restored the grading register to how it used to be -- first, requiring a minimum of 93.75% pure blood (rather than the current 96.8%); and second, permitting colts to be put forward for both a vetting and breed inspection in order to allow their offspring to continue to progress through the grading register toward eventually producing a generation with sufficient pure blood to be entered in the stud book. Breed inspections were an important component along the way. The third proposal was to allow the Council to "fast track" exceptional horses, if it chose to do so.
Geneticist Phil Sponenberg (DVM, PhD), advisor to the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy (NA equivalent to RBST) advocates the selective use of both males and females in grading up schemes. That way the pure genes from both the x and y chromosomes may be present in the horse that is ultimately added to the purebred stud book.
Proponents were interested in using TBs. There was also some interest expressed in the potential for recovering "lost" genes by using some of the breeds where CBs had been used as improvers in the past -- Holstein, Oldenburg, etc. The F-line Holsteiners, and horses such as Nimmerdor carry a substantial concentration of CB blood through Farn and other foundation warmbloods, who carry CBs and Yorkshire Coach Horses in their backgrounds.
Mr. Edmunds advocated that if grading up were to be done, it should be done using horses from the Kabardin breed, because he felt they shared a genetic background with the Cleveland Bay. This last sentiment was not shared by most advocates of the proposal as these other rare horses did not appear to add quality to the mix.
There is a difference between the ID and the CB though. Many Registered Irish Draught (not sporthorse) stallions carry a substantial amount of TB blood already. Clover Hill is sired by a TB; King of Diamonds is at least 25% TB; and Sea Crest is 1/8 TB with an additional 7/16 of his pedigree labelled as "unknown." You will not find TB blood up this close in CB stallions (though most Premium CB stallions do have a measure of TB blood through grading register ancestors) -- and more importantly, the grading register proposals would not have changed this fact.
Seventy-five percent approval by society members would have been required for the changes to pass and clearly they did not. Nonetheless, it is hoped that those that run the society will take note that some of the changes did garner support by a majority of the members. This breed is critically endangered. It needs all the friends it can get. Hopefully the organizations will act in that spirit and seek to find common ground and implement some of the changes that the majority clearly sought.
As far as purebreds competing in the show disciplines with other breeds, particularly sporthorses -- unfortunately I would say that it is the exceptional purebred that can compete at this time. Partbreds -- absolutely, even at the highest levels. However, without quality purebreds, there will ultimately be no partbreds.
There is a grading register for mares and has always been one. Two of the proposals discussed would have restored the grading register to how it used to be -- first, requiring a minimum of 93.75% pure blood (rather than the current 96.8%); and second, permitting colts to be put forward for both a vetting and breed inspection in order to allow their offspring to continue to progress through the grading register toward eventually producing a generation with sufficient pure blood to be entered in the stud book. Breed inspections were an important component along the way. The third proposal was to allow the Council to "fast track" exceptional horses, if it chose to do so.
Geneticist Phil Sponenberg (DVM, PhD), advisor to the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy (NA equivalent to RBST) advocates the selective use of both males and females in grading up schemes. That way the pure genes from both the x and y chromosomes may be present in the horse that is ultimately added to the purebred stud book.
Proponents were interested in using TBs. There was also some interest expressed in the potential for recovering "lost" genes by using some of the breeds where CBs had been used as improvers in the past -- Holstein, Oldenburg, etc. The F-line Holsteiners, and horses such as Nimmerdor carry a substantial concentration of CB blood through Farn and other foundation warmbloods, who carry CBs and Yorkshire Coach Horses in their backgrounds.
Mr. Edmunds advocated that if grading up were to be done, it should be done using horses from the Kabardin breed, because he felt they shared a genetic background with the Cleveland Bay. This last sentiment was not shared by most advocates of the proposal as these other rare horses did not appear to add quality to the mix.
There is a difference between the ID and the CB though. Many Registered Irish Draught (not sporthorse) stallions carry a substantial amount of TB blood already. Clover Hill is sired by a TB; King of Diamonds is at least 25% TB; and Sea Crest is 1/8 TB with an additional 7/16 of his pedigree labelled as "unknown." You will not find TB blood up this close in CB stallions (though most Premium CB stallions do have a measure of TB blood through grading register ancestors) -- and more importantly, the grading register proposals would not have changed this fact.
Seventy-five percent approval by society members would have been required for the changes to pass and clearly they did not. Nonetheless, it is hoped that those that run the society will take note that some of the changes did garner support by a majority of the members. This breed is critically endangered. It needs all the friends it can get. Hopefully the organizations will act in that spirit and seek to find common ground and implement some of the changes that the majority clearly sought.
As far as purebreds competing in the show disciplines with other breeds, particularly sporthorses -- unfortunately I would say that it is the exceptional purebred that can compete at this time. Partbreds -- absolutely, even at the highest levels. However, without quality purebreds, there will ultimately be no partbreds.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
You're quite right - but the LACK of TB blood high up in Cleveland Bay pedigrees would be a distinct advantage. You have to be very careful with ID mares who have TB high up - and NOT put them to a stallion with TB in the first 3 generations - because TB finds TB and you end up with 'pure' bred IDs that look more like a 2nd cross ID SH - and hey won't grade!
To my mind, there's not much choice OTHER than a sensible grading-up policy because - with the very limited numbers - the pure-bred WILL decline in quality (and no-one will want them - which is part of the problem now - not enough demand to support the breeders!)
Rollin
Well-Known Member
Janet the existing GR has been little used. I will ask how many GR mares we have.
In the ID stud book, when a mare or stallion is inspected are the results of that inspection published so that prospective breeders know the Inspectors's opinions of that particular horse?
Rollin
Well-Known Member
Sorry Janet, I had to leave my computer.
Within your breed society do you have a selected mating scheme? We have one called SPARKS. it was developed by Dr. Andy Dell, who was given an award by the RBST for his work.
Each year I can search which stallions will be most suitable for my mares in order to avoid in-breeding. I now have three mares who are a good genetic match for my stallion and for his daughter I have already purchased frozen semen which is currently held in the UK.
Dr. Dell's more recent research for his PhD, for which we contributed samples for DNA, shows the genetic bottle neck within the CB occurred over a 100 years ago.
The RBST are not in favour of the GR and have made other suggestions to the society to help to widen the gene pool.
During his research Dr. Dell discovered the close genetic relationship with the Kabardin and lent weight to Henry Edmund's research into the origin of the Cleveland Bay which dates back to the Roman occupation of Britain.
Within your breed society do you have a selected mating scheme? We have one called SPARKS. it was developed by Dr. Andy Dell, who was given an award by the RBST for his work.
Each year I can search which stallions will be most suitable for my mares in order to avoid in-breeding. I now have three mares who are a good genetic match for my stallion and for his daughter I have already purchased frozen semen which is currently held in the UK.
Dr. Dell's more recent research for his PhD, for which we contributed samples for DNA, shows the genetic bottle neck within the CB occurred over a 100 years ago.
The RBST are not in favour of the GR and have made other suggestions to the society to help to widen the gene pool.
During his research Dr. Dell discovered the close genetic relationship with the Kabardin and lent weight to Henry Edmund's research into the origin of the Cleveland Bay which dates back to the Roman occupation of Britain.
ThePony
Well-Known Member
Will dive out this eve and get a copy. I hope it isn't just a publication of a CBHS bun fight though!
I utterly utterly adore the CB, and worry that there is a very real chance of quality being lost and the numbers declining ever further.
The grading up sounds a good idea, particularly if very close attention is paid to adding blood back in from lines with a large amount of influence from the CB. Breeding back in warmblood lines sounds fascinating, are any breeders currently breeding in this way?
I worry that inspections are not openly graded with the results for all to see. Surely this has no benefit for potential purchasers, riders and breeders, and because of that it must be a lack for the breed as a whole. In order for the breed to be kept typical (even more important with the import of 'new' blood) then surely inspections are incredibly important. I must admit a dislike for some types of CB currently being bred, I would rather not have a 17hh + mare myself and prefer the smaller and more compact chapman type. Inspections would allow all interested in the breed to clearly see what breeds what and so select appropriate horses and lines for their needs.
I was unaware that pd mares could breed back up to eventually produce offspring that could be registered as 'pure'. How many generations would it take for a CBxTb mare to breed a pure offspring?
I feel relieved that the CB has such knowledgeable friends such as Henry Edmunds and you Rollin, each CB thread I read I learn more about this truly wonderful breed.
I utterly utterly adore the CB, and worry that there is a very real chance of quality being lost and the numbers declining ever further.
The grading up sounds a good idea, particularly if very close attention is paid to adding blood back in from lines with a large amount of influence from the CB. Breeding back in warmblood lines sounds fascinating, are any breeders currently breeding in this way?
I worry that inspections are not openly graded with the results for all to see. Surely this has no benefit for potential purchasers, riders and breeders, and because of that it must be a lack for the breed as a whole. In order for the breed to be kept typical (even more important with the import of 'new' blood) then surely inspections are incredibly important. I must admit a dislike for some types of CB currently being bred, I would rather not have a 17hh + mare myself and prefer the smaller and more compact chapman type. Inspections would allow all interested in the breed to clearly see what breeds what and so select appropriate horses and lines for their needs.
I was unaware that pd mares could breed back up to eventually produce offspring that could be registered as 'pure'. How many generations would it take for a CBxTb mare to breed a pure offspring?
I feel relieved that the CB has such knowledgeable friends such as Henry Edmunds and you Rollin, each CB thread I read I learn more about this truly wonderful breed.
Rollin
Well-Known Member
Dear Pony,
I too love Chapman types, my first three mares were 15.hh/15.3hh!!! We have just purchased another filly who will make about 16hh.
I am of an age when I don't like to be too far from the ground but I appreciate that for those who like to hunt or event a strapping 17hh CB is just the job.
As far as crossing with TB or warmblood that option is open to any breeder. We breed Shagya and CB pure and cross the two.
I too love Chapman types, my first three mares were 15.hh/15.3hh!!! We have just purchased another filly who will make about 16hh.
I am of an age when I don't like to be too far from the ground but I appreciate that for those who like to hunt or event a strapping 17hh CB is just the job.
As far as crossing with TB or warmblood that option is open to any breeder. We breed Shagya and CB pure and cross the two.
harveysmom
Well-Known Member
hi, thanks for your input on this, cleveland bays have a grading register. a graded mare as i understand it wont be eligable for grading up unless she breeds a filly foal, colts dont count and just the same as with your grading register they would have to be inspected and vetted to ensure they would not adversely effect the breed.
the vote that members took was on lowering the percentage of what constituted pure bred blood you can see why people feel this may dilute the breed,however if numbers continue to fall we wont have a cleveland bay at all
so many breeders are giving up and gelding stallions as they can only seem to sell the part-breds
i have personally no problem with colts from the grading register being gelded so they have no influence on the breed other than to advertise the breed,they are not even allowed to compete in pure show classes even if they have the correct percentage of pure blood and are registerd as pure because their dam is still on the grading register[perhaps some competitors are scared of the competion] unfortunatly for the shortsightedness of some, geldings are considered rubbish and worthless whether on the grading register or not, an attitude that needs to change
it needs to be recognised what a contribution the geldings do make
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harveysmom
Well-Known Member
hi, i agree i also dont like some clevelands that are being bred at the moment they are becoming short of bone looking more like CBxTB more commercial
i mentioned in a previous tread that my pures were both 17hh and also that this is not the breed standard and only used this example to show how you can change a breeds charactaristics without going outside the existing gene pool
both my pure clevelands are geldings so will have no part to play in how the breed develops
at this moment in time there is no benefit to gelding owners being members of the society
so my interest is not clouded i either want to buy what is being bred or shop elsewhere
so i have bought horses that suit my needs, and am very pleased with what ive got
it still leaves me worried about the potential for future birth defects nobody wants to buy that, thats when clevelands will die out and there wont be any returning from that
im sorry if this isnt what you want to hear but how many buyers of cleveland bays would continue to support the breed if this was to happen
ClevelandBayUSA
New User
ThePony -- you asked about crossing back to the warmblood lines that have lots of CB way back... I am doing this with my partbred stallion -- crossed him with a Holsteiner by Franat and have a lovely yearling filly. I have also acquired a top eventing Holsteiner stallion that I intend to cross back with the partbred CBs. He is an old-fashioned looking Holsteiner, very phenotypically similar to a CB, and is also inbred to those lines. And, if dreams are no object, I would love to cross the Dutch horse Emilion back to some CB mares, even a purebred, with the hopes of getting a Cleveland Bay sporthorse stallion prospect. Emilion goes back to the foundation lines not only through his sire Wellington's sire Nimmerdor, but also through several lines on Wellington's dam Ramirha's side. My interest is in producing great sporthorses, not necessarily in having something that would eventually end up in the grading register.
Harveysmom -- you might be interested to look up the pedigrees of your horses and see whether or not they do have grading register lines there already.
Also, I would hope that the breed inspections that are an integral part of the grading up process would protect the breed standard and make sure that the bone in the eventual stud book horses is not lost.
It's a tricky balance -- not many people can afford to be the benefactors of the breed and breed purebreds that may not have an athletic purpose. As harveysmom pointed out, you want to be careful that the pures don't end up looking like the CBxTB sporthorses or you lose some of the essence of the purebred. So how do you end up marketing or preserving something, when it's the derivative product that most people want?
Harveysmom -- you might be interested to look up the pedigrees of your horses and see whether or not they do have grading register lines there already.
Also, I would hope that the breed inspections that are an integral part of the grading up process would protect the breed standard and make sure that the bone in the eventual stud book horses is not lost.
It's a tricky balance -- not many people can afford to be the benefactors of the breed and breed purebreds that may not have an athletic purpose. As harveysmom pointed out, you want to be careful that the pures don't end up looking like the CBxTB sporthorses or you lose some of the essence of the purebred. So how do you end up marketing or preserving something, when it's the derivative product that most people want?
John Patrick
Active Member
The Horse & Hound article “Row over TB blood divides Breed society” is misleading. It suggests that the disagreement within the Cleveland Bay Horse Society was about whether or not to allow thoroughbred horses to be used to grade up horses into the main Cleveland Bay Stud Book. That is not the case. The CBHS has maintained a Stud Book for pure Cleveland Bay horses since 1884. It has had a Grade Registers Scheme since the early1920s. Thoroughbred mares can be used now to grade up mares only into the main Stud Book. The Society also has a Part Bred Register for horses that have at least an eight Cleveland Bay breeding in their pedigree.
Mares can be grade up from by crossing them and their resulting female progeny with pure CBHS registered and licenced stallions over five generations to produce a filly that is eligible to be admitted into the main Stud Book.
The Cleveland Bay horse is a critically endangered native British breed of horse. The Rare Breed Survival Trust lists the Cleveland Bay in its Watchlist system as “Critical 1” which means that there are less than 300 breeding mares in the world.
The RBST has worked closely with the CBHS and breeders to increase the number of pure horses to get it out of this position. It has assisted the Society to obtain financial assistance from the Horse Racing Levy Board each year to help breeders to breed more pure horses.
The main problem that the pure Cleveland Bay is facing now is not to do with the Grade Registers Scheme but rather with the fact that there are not enough pure foals being born and registered with the Society to maintain the maximum amount of the present genetic diversity that exists in the pure breed. Some of that is to do with the present economic situation.
Dr Andrew Dell published his report in 2011 “ Genetic Analysis And Breed Management Of The Endangered Cleveland Bay Horse “ in which he evidenced that at least 45 pure fillies need to be registered each year with the Society to maintain the breeding population. The reality is that so far in 2012 only around twelve foals have been registered with the Society including both fillies and colts. In 2011 there were 37 foals registered on a global basis, (19 fillies and 18 colts). In 2010 there were 37 foals registered (12 fillies & 25 colts). In 2009 there were 54 foals registered (24 fillies & 30 colts). In 2008 there were 57 foals registered (26 fillies & 31 colts). In 2007 there were 65 foals registered (9 fillies & 36 colts).
With such low numbers of pure horses being bred it would not be wise to flood such a small pure genetic base with too much outside genetics if you want to retain the Cleveland Bay as a distinct native British breed of horse.
The Society held a breed conference in September 2012 at which Dr Andrew Dell, Dr Ian Gill, the former senior scientific adviser to the RBST and a fellow of Liverpool University and Mr. Colin Green, a breeder and former CBHS Council member who has championed the case for introducing the grade register proposals spoke. Dr Andrew Dell and Dr Ian Gill strongly advised the Society not to introduce the proposed grade register scheme changes and outlined an alternative pathway based upon using it’s existing SPARKS scheme combined with using the present grade register scheme to maintain the maximum amount of the existing genetic diversity within the population and to increase it’s effective population size over a number of generations.
The RBST advised the Society that it didn’t support the need for the grade register change proposals because their research showed that other actions were available to prevent and minimize the rate of loss of genetic diversity in the breed in order to maintain the purity and integrity of it as a distinct native horse. That advice reflected their current breed acceptance guidelines that state: “ From 31December 2004, the Trust does not recognize any additions to an upgrading scheme. If a Breed Society starts or continues an upgrading register after this date, associated animals and their descendents will not be included in breed census totals and will not be eligible for support unless previously agreed by the Trust.”
They stated that: “RBST feel it necessary to highlight, that if the Cleveland Bay Society approve these grading-up plans, RBST will need to uphold the above, and will not be able to include animals graded up pr their descendents for the RBST Watchlist census (which is used by the HBLB to inform their grants programme), and any support from RBST (financial or otherwise) will only able to be given for the pure-bred Cleveland Bay population.”
At the October 2012 AGM members overwhelmingly voted to reject all three of the resolutions tabled to alter the existing grade register scheme, including the second one concerning reducing the number of generations down from five to four generations to grade up horses into the main Stud Book.
The three resolutions would have allowed any sports horse from any breed listed by the World Breeding Federation of Sports Horses with the exception of coloured breeds to be used to grade up from.The present proven system of allowing mares only to be used to grade up from would have been replaced with one that would allow both mares and stallions of outside breeds to be used. Part bred mares could have been put to part bred stallions, part bred stallions could be put to pure mares, pure stallions could be put to part bred mares etc to arrive at the % of Cleveland Bay genetics in a foal to place it on a point on the grade register or to admit it into the main Stud Book. Members were concerned that outside stallions could have a much quicker and potentially damaging impact on the existing pure population with the infusion of too much sports horse types genes. Horses could be fast tracked up into the main Stud Book with as little as two crosses of Cleveland Bay breeding or only 75% Cleveland Bay breeding behind them.All of these things taken together in a small breeding population would have radically changed the breed and it would not have been easy to maintain the existing Breed Standard.The Society already finds it difficult to prevent chestnut horses from cropping up or ones with more white on them than is permitted in the Breed Standard.It would be even more difficult to maintain the existing Breed Standard with even more outside genes being introduced into a small gene pool all at once.
This issue has been on the Society AGM in 2010, 2011 & in 2012. It has been debated to death and has needlessly distracted the Society and breeders away from focusing their collective attention on the main challenge facing the pure breed which is the need to register more genuinely bred pure Cleveland Bays to maintain it is a distinct native British breed of horse.
I don’t accept the claims that there is no demand or market for Cleveland Bays.There is a demand for both pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses. The problem is that the horse has not been effectively marketed by some of the people who should be championing them and not continually undermining their reputation as is happening again with this senseless discussion about changing the breed into just another sports horse type. Cleveland Bays are very well suited to the general leisure and pleasure riding community’s needs. Not everyone can sit a top class sports horse however much they might aspire to do so. I have witnessed far too many amateur and inexperienced horse riders rushing out to buy fashionable sports horse types that they lack the competence to handle only to see them sell them on soon afterwards at a lower price describing the horse as a problem one because of their inability to ride it.
Cleveland Bays have been used to breed top class competition horse and can still do so now, preferably by using a pure Cleveland Bay stallion on a mare of another breed rather than by putting pure mares to outside breed stallions given the desperately low numbers of pure Cleveland Bay horses on the ground at present.
Recently part bred horses such as Spring Pascal in dressage and Baydale Venus, a Hoys Hack of the Year winner have achieved success but they are not generally promoted to the wider equine community as being part bred Cleveland Bay horses because some owners feel that judges might place them lower down the line in competitions because of the negative press that the breed has in some quarters.
Given that there are so few Cleveland Bays around and that even fewer of them are out being competed it is remarkable that so many of them do achieve the success that they do against other breeds of horses. It should be shouted from the hilltops so that the unfair reputation that the breed has in some people’s minds is corrected rather than people within the breed continuing to run them down with unsubstantiated claims that they have lost quality etc.
Cleveland Bays have been sought out as improvers for other breeds in the past and could occupy that position again in the future if they are retained as a pure breed. Fashions change and what is popular today will probably not be tomorrow.
Both the British and Japanese royal families have used Cleveland Bays for many years as carriage driving horses at important state occasion. If they are good enough for them then I am sure that they are more than good enough for the rest of us.
I would encourage everyone to support this valuable British breed of horse. You don’t need to own one to support them. You can support them by making a financial donation to the CBHS via the Paypal link on its website www.clevelandbay.com
It is time to stop this needless debate about the grade register which has after all been decided by the CBHS membership at it’s last AGM where all members had the opportunity to vote on the issue one way or another. It is time now to get on with the serious business of preserving and promoting this valuable British breed of horse before it is too late to do so.
Mares can be grade up from by crossing them and their resulting female progeny with pure CBHS registered and licenced stallions over five generations to produce a filly that is eligible to be admitted into the main Stud Book.
The Cleveland Bay horse is a critically endangered native British breed of horse. The Rare Breed Survival Trust lists the Cleveland Bay in its Watchlist system as “Critical 1” which means that there are less than 300 breeding mares in the world.
The RBST has worked closely with the CBHS and breeders to increase the number of pure horses to get it out of this position. It has assisted the Society to obtain financial assistance from the Horse Racing Levy Board each year to help breeders to breed more pure horses.
The main problem that the pure Cleveland Bay is facing now is not to do with the Grade Registers Scheme but rather with the fact that there are not enough pure foals being born and registered with the Society to maintain the maximum amount of the present genetic diversity that exists in the pure breed. Some of that is to do with the present economic situation.
Dr Andrew Dell published his report in 2011 “ Genetic Analysis And Breed Management Of The Endangered Cleveland Bay Horse “ in which he evidenced that at least 45 pure fillies need to be registered each year with the Society to maintain the breeding population. The reality is that so far in 2012 only around twelve foals have been registered with the Society including both fillies and colts. In 2011 there were 37 foals registered on a global basis, (19 fillies and 18 colts). In 2010 there were 37 foals registered (12 fillies & 25 colts). In 2009 there were 54 foals registered (24 fillies & 30 colts). In 2008 there were 57 foals registered (26 fillies & 31 colts). In 2007 there were 65 foals registered (9 fillies & 36 colts).
With such low numbers of pure horses being bred it would not be wise to flood such a small pure genetic base with too much outside genetics if you want to retain the Cleveland Bay as a distinct native British breed of horse.
The Society held a breed conference in September 2012 at which Dr Andrew Dell, Dr Ian Gill, the former senior scientific adviser to the RBST and a fellow of Liverpool University and Mr. Colin Green, a breeder and former CBHS Council member who has championed the case for introducing the grade register proposals spoke. Dr Andrew Dell and Dr Ian Gill strongly advised the Society not to introduce the proposed grade register scheme changes and outlined an alternative pathway based upon using it’s existing SPARKS scheme combined with using the present grade register scheme to maintain the maximum amount of the existing genetic diversity within the population and to increase it’s effective population size over a number of generations.
The RBST advised the Society that it didn’t support the need for the grade register change proposals because their research showed that other actions were available to prevent and minimize the rate of loss of genetic diversity in the breed in order to maintain the purity and integrity of it as a distinct native horse. That advice reflected their current breed acceptance guidelines that state: “ From 31December 2004, the Trust does not recognize any additions to an upgrading scheme. If a Breed Society starts or continues an upgrading register after this date, associated animals and their descendents will not be included in breed census totals and will not be eligible for support unless previously agreed by the Trust.”
They stated that: “RBST feel it necessary to highlight, that if the Cleveland Bay Society approve these grading-up plans, RBST will need to uphold the above, and will not be able to include animals graded up pr their descendents for the RBST Watchlist census (which is used by the HBLB to inform their grants programme), and any support from RBST (financial or otherwise) will only able to be given for the pure-bred Cleveland Bay population.”
At the October 2012 AGM members overwhelmingly voted to reject all three of the resolutions tabled to alter the existing grade register scheme, including the second one concerning reducing the number of generations down from five to four generations to grade up horses into the main Stud Book.
The three resolutions would have allowed any sports horse from any breed listed by the World Breeding Federation of Sports Horses with the exception of coloured breeds to be used to grade up from.The present proven system of allowing mares only to be used to grade up from would have been replaced with one that would allow both mares and stallions of outside breeds to be used. Part bred mares could have been put to part bred stallions, part bred stallions could be put to pure mares, pure stallions could be put to part bred mares etc to arrive at the % of Cleveland Bay genetics in a foal to place it on a point on the grade register or to admit it into the main Stud Book. Members were concerned that outside stallions could have a much quicker and potentially damaging impact on the existing pure population with the infusion of too much sports horse types genes. Horses could be fast tracked up into the main Stud Book with as little as two crosses of Cleveland Bay breeding or only 75% Cleveland Bay breeding behind them.All of these things taken together in a small breeding population would have radically changed the breed and it would not have been easy to maintain the existing Breed Standard.The Society already finds it difficult to prevent chestnut horses from cropping up or ones with more white on them than is permitted in the Breed Standard.It would be even more difficult to maintain the existing Breed Standard with even more outside genes being introduced into a small gene pool all at once.
This issue has been on the Society AGM in 2010, 2011 & in 2012. It has been debated to death and has needlessly distracted the Society and breeders away from focusing their collective attention on the main challenge facing the pure breed which is the need to register more genuinely bred pure Cleveland Bays to maintain it is a distinct native British breed of horse.
I don’t accept the claims that there is no demand or market for Cleveland Bays.There is a demand for both pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses. The problem is that the horse has not been effectively marketed by some of the people who should be championing them and not continually undermining their reputation as is happening again with this senseless discussion about changing the breed into just another sports horse type. Cleveland Bays are very well suited to the general leisure and pleasure riding community’s needs. Not everyone can sit a top class sports horse however much they might aspire to do so. I have witnessed far too many amateur and inexperienced horse riders rushing out to buy fashionable sports horse types that they lack the competence to handle only to see them sell them on soon afterwards at a lower price describing the horse as a problem one because of their inability to ride it.
Cleveland Bays have been used to breed top class competition horse and can still do so now, preferably by using a pure Cleveland Bay stallion on a mare of another breed rather than by putting pure mares to outside breed stallions given the desperately low numbers of pure Cleveland Bay horses on the ground at present.
Recently part bred horses such as Spring Pascal in dressage and Baydale Venus, a Hoys Hack of the Year winner have achieved success but they are not generally promoted to the wider equine community as being part bred Cleveland Bay horses because some owners feel that judges might place them lower down the line in competitions because of the negative press that the breed has in some quarters.
Given that there are so few Cleveland Bays around and that even fewer of them are out being competed it is remarkable that so many of them do achieve the success that they do against other breeds of horses. It should be shouted from the hilltops so that the unfair reputation that the breed has in some people’s minds is corrected rather than people within the breed continuing to run them down with unsubstantiated claims that they have lost quality etc.
Cleveland Bays have been sought out as improvers for other breeds in the past and could occupy that position again in the future if they are retained as a pure breed. Fashions change and what is popular today will probably not be tomorrow.
Both the British and Japanese royal families have used Cleveland Bays for many years as carriage driving horses at important state occasion. If they are good enough for them then I am sure that they are more than good enough for the rest of us.
I would encourage everyone to support this valuable British breed of horse. You don’t need to own one to support them. You can support them by making a financial donation to the CBHS via the Paypal link on its website www.clevelandbay.com
It is time to stop this needless debate about the grade register which has after all been decided by the CBHS membership at it’s last AGM where all members had the opportunity to vote on the issue one way or another. It is time now to get on with the serious business of preserving and promoting this valuable British breed of horse before it is too late to do so.
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Rollin
Well-Known Member
Dear John Patrick,
Thank you for your excellent contribution to this debate. I was not able to attend the Breed Conference but am delighted at the summary you have presented.
We are in total agreement that more effort needs to be put into marketing the breed rather than demeaning it. We are the only breeders of pure bred CB's in the whole of Continental Euruope. A huge potential market is a desert for the breed.
Magnificsporthorses claims the Cleveland Bay is only suited to low level competition. I don't know at what point in USA competitions, horses are distinguished at high/low level competitors? Does she mean they do not compete in International Competitions? Certainly there are PLENTY of 50% CB's who have done.
The majority of riders who contribute to this forum and throughout the rest of Europe, do not aspire to win Badminton, Olympic Gold medals or ride a Grand Prix Dressage horse.
The two fastest growing sports in Europe are Endurance (two of our tiny population of pure bred mares have competed to 100kms in the UK in times as good as Arabians) and Le Trec. Western riding is growing in popularity.
Most of us enjoy competing in local shows and at riding club level.
The Cleveland Bay is ideally suited to the biggest market for sane sensible and honest riding horses. It is a great shame that in this huge recreational market we are failing
to breed 45 foals a year.
Buy one now and avoid disappointment!!
Thank you for your excellent contribution to this debate. I was not able to attend the Breed Conference but am delighted at the summary you have presented.
We are in total agreement that more effort needs to be put into marketing the breed rather than demeaning it. We are the only breeders of pure bred CB's in the whole of Continental Euruope. A huge potential market is a desert for the breed.
Magnificsporthorses claims the Cleveland Bay is only suited to low level competition. I don't know at what point in USA competitions, horses are distinguished at high/low level competitors? Does she mean they do not compete in International Competitions? Certainly there are PLENTY of 50% CB's who have done.
The majority of riders who contribute to this forum and throughout the rest of Europe, do not aspire to win Badminton, Olympic Gold medals or ride a Grand Prix Dressage horse.
The two fastest growing sports in Europe are Endurance (two of our tiny population of pure bred mares have competed to 100kms in the UK in times as good as Arabians) and Le Trec. Western riding is growing in popularity.
Most of us enjoy competing in local shows and at riding club level.
The Cleveland Bay is ideally suited to the biggest market for sane sensible and honest riding horses. It is a great shame that in this huge recreational market we are failing
to breed 45 foals a year.
Buy one now and avoid disappointment!!
Pembridge
Member
The Yorkshire horse stud book was merged with the CB stud book,thus bringing non CB blood on board,a fact that apperas to be overlooked by the prists!
Rollin
Well-Known Member
Out of interest, do you seek the YCH lines in your own breeding programme then?
weebarney
Well-Known Member
I want a sane sensible and honest riding horse! where can i get one?
Pembridge
Member
No I do not 'actively seek it' I set out to selectively breed active athletic CB's true to breed type.If you look back over my breeding it just so happens that YCH infusions are historically present in the bloodlines. This as you have raised it reinforces the importance that the TB has had on the pure CB.
It would seem that the enlightened approach to breeding the YCH was welcomed by the CBHS in 1936. It has been replaced by the introverted stance we have to deal with now.
With this precious breed on the verge of extinction I think a little vision is urgently required not the dogma that we have.
Pembridge
Member
Oh dear
I did not think that you suffered from naivety and with your intellect you must have been wondering why I had not entered the debate, being one of the most successful breeders of pure's and partbreds to International level. Bring it on! I enjoy constructive considered views, I just don't rise to the bait when facing bigotry
I did not think that you suffered from naivety and with your intellect you must have been wondering why I had not entered the debate, being one of the most successful breeders of pure's and partbreds to International level. Bring it on! I enjoy constructive considered views, I just don't rise to the bait when facing bigotry
Zuzan
Well-Known Member
How true...
My big bug bear with the whole debate is lack of hard evidence by either side..
OK so someone has found a genetic link to the Kabardin.. I would love to see the study that identified the link? How close is it this link compared to that between the TB and the CB? Are there TBs which have a stronger Turk heritage than Arab? Which I would assume would be closer to the CB genetically .. at a guess.. (NB Turks weren't a breed but a breeding programme set up by the Ottoman Empire and there are far more Turks than the Byerley embedded in both TB and CB.)
Is the Kabardin genetic similarity due to the Turk influence on both the Kabardin and the CB (as well as the TB) or is it that they were one and the same breed that the Romans imported to the UK? or even both.. it all is a bit academic as far as I can see..
and someone else has said that Kabardins lack quality.. WHAT quality are we talking about?? on what evidence??? Has any one in the CBHS gone to the Caucasus to see Kabardins?
What exactly is this "quality" that people keep banging on about? I think we need to be more specific than just saying Quality.. is it action.. ? hardiness? temperament?
The main problem I see is that the Irish and the Continentals have been FAR FAR better at marketing what are often quite 2nd rate horses to the UK market and unfortunately there is a general belief that if you want performance you have to either have a "WB" (even if bred in the UK but using imported WB pedigrees)
The CBHS has done little very ineffectively as far as I can see to market the CB and CB part bred as performance horses in any discipline.
Fashionable WB and ISH stallions have performance credentials that most CB stallions don't have .. as in proven competition stock (outside of CB showing classes) on the ground or their own records in any one discipline. This is what the high end of the market looks for.
There is a real need for the CBHS / breeders / enthusiasts to culturally shift away from traditional showing which it seems to me many breeders seem to be more stuck on.. every CB mag goes on and on about CB showing classes at shows .. which to me seem utterly out of sync with the rest of the equine world.. CB classes don't prove anything to the uninitiated.. by all means go on showing but don't expect these classes to be an effective marketing tool.
Oh and this royal carriage horse connection.. doesn't really wash .. unless of course you are carriage driver.. which few of us are.. so that doesn't work as a marketing tool either.. especially when the greys take pride of place and the house hold cavalry look so bloomin glam .. it really doesn't show the CB off to it's best advantage on tv..
Generally the traditional formats / methods are really no longer that relevant as far as I can see .. they have been overtaken by the modern "disciplines" of BS BD and BE .. Endurance and TREC should not be ignored either.. and their performance records.
It is worth thinking about the Lippi bred as a carriage horse but it is famous as the mount of the SRS
John Patrick
Active Member
I agree with the comment made by Janet George above about the use of thoroughbred horses when she said in response to an earlier statement made by magnificsportshorses concerning some notable Irish Draft horses having thoroughbred breeding in their pedigrees quite right - but the LACK of TB blood high up in Cleveland Bay pedigrees would be a distinct advantage. You have to be very careful with ID mares who have TB high up - TB finds TB and you end up with 'pure' bred IDs that look more like a 2nd cross ID SH - and they won't grade!
That is exactly the situation that some Yorkshire Coach Horse breeders found themselves in that used thoroughbred horses more frequently than other breeders did years ago as is evidenced by the comments in both Yorkshire Coach Horse Society Stud Books and in Cleveland Bay Horse Society Stud Books where it is reported by leading authorities on the Cleveland Bay and Yorkshire breeds that Yorkshire Coach horses bred in that way tended to run to weed unless they were crossed back to Cleveland Bay stallions with substance and bone.
That is precisely why the CBHS uses mares only crossed to registered and licenced pure Cleveland Bay stallions over five generations of such crosses before the resulting filly is eligible to be inspected and vetted to go into the main Cleveland Bay Stud Book.
I note with some interest the comment made above by Pembridge The Yorkshire horse stud book was merged with the CB stud book, thus bringing non CB blood on board, a fact that appears to be overlooked by the purists!
In 1937 after years of acrimony, the Cleveland Bay Horse Society and the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society amalgamated. At that time the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society had very few members in it and was in danger of ceasing to exist at all. It had few live horses entered into its Stud Book. Many of the horses registered in the Yorkshire Coach Horse Stud Book had pedigrees that were predominately made up of animals that were of pure Cleveland Bay breeding because mare owners routinely covered them with pure Cleveland Bay stallions to maintain their type. Some of the horses registered in the Yorkshire Coach Horse Stud book were in fact pure Cleveland Bay horses by breeding that had been registered with the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society after their owners left the Cleveland Bay Horse Society to join the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society taking their pure Cleveland Bay horses with them.
The Cleveland Bay Horse Society Stud Book, Volume XV111 was published in 1938. It incorporated the last volume, Volume 1X, of the Yorkshire Coach Horse Stud Book. This was the end of the Yorkshire Coach Horse as a distinct breed, something that we dont want to see happening to the pure Cleveland Bay horse.
The reality was that only a handful of Yorkshire Coach horses came across to the CBHS when the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society and it amalgamated with each other. Few of these Yorkshire Coach horses produced offspring so they havent left descendents in todays pure Cleveland Bay population. The claims that a lot of outside blood was introduced into the pure Cleveland Bay horse population when the two Societies amalgamated is not borne out by an analysis of the facts.
The outside genes that are in the present day pure Cleveland Bay breed have largely got into it via the descendents of Lucifer and mares that have been used to grade up horses into the main Stud Book under the approved Grade Registers Scheme provisions. I consider myself to be a Cleveland Bay purist and as such accept that the existing approved Grade Register Scheme with its built in safeguards aimed at maintaining the existing Breed Standard is an important part of preserving the pure Cleveland Bay horse. I would encourage all those who say that they want to grade up horses to do so under the terms and conditions of the existing scheme, which is approved by the Society and by the Rare Breed Survival Trust. More importantly I would urge people to breed and register with the CBHS more pure foals, to retain more colts for use and to compete their horses so that peope can see what they can achieve.
That is exactly the situation that some Yorkshire Coach Horse breeders found themselves in that used thoroughbred horses more frequently than other breeders did years ago as is evidenced by the comments in both Yorkshire Coach Horse Society Stud Books and in Cleveland Bay Horse Society Stud Books where it is reported by leading authorities on the Cleveland Bay and Yorkshire breeds that Yorkshire Coach horses bred in that way tended to run to weed unless they were crossed back to Cleveland Bay stallions with substance and bone.
That is precisely why the CBHS uses mares only crossed to registered and licenced pure Cleveland Bay stallions over five generations of such crosses before the resulting filly is eligible to be inspected and vetted to go into the main Cleveland Bay Stud Book.
I note with some interest the comment made above by Pembridge The Yorkshire horse stud book was merged with the CB stud book, thus bringing non CB blood on board, a fact that appears to be overlooked by the purists!
In 1937 after years of acrimony, the Cleveland Bay Horse Society and the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society amalgamated. At that time the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society had very few members in it and was in danger of ceasing to exist at all. It had few live horses entered into its Stud Book. Many of the horses registered in the Yorkshire Coach Horse Stud Book had pedigrees that were predominately made up of animals that were of pure Cleveland Bay breeding because mare owners routinely covered them with pure Cleveland Bay stallions to maintain their type. Some of the horses registered in the Yorkshire Coach Horse Stud book were in fact pure Cleveland Bay horses by breeding that had been registered with the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society after their owners left the Cleveland Bay Horse Society to join the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society taking their pure Cleveland Bay horses with them.
The Cleveland Bay Horse Society Stud Book, Volume XV111 was published in 1938. It incorporated the last volume, Volume 1X, of the Yorkshire Coach Horse Stud Book. This was the end of the Yorkshire Coach Horse as a distinct breed, something that we dont want to see happening to the pure Cleveland Bay horse.
The reality was that only a handful of Yorkshire Coach horses came across to the CBHS when the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society and it amalgamated with each other. Few of these Yorkshire Coach horses produced offspring so they havent left descendents in todays pure Cleveland Bay population. The claims that a lot of outside blood was introduced into the pure Cleveland Bay horse population when the two Societies amalgamated is not borne out by an analysis of the facts.
The outside genes that are in the present day pure Cleveland Bay breed have largely got into it via the descendents of Lucifer and mares that have been used to grade up horses into the main Stud Book under the approved Grade Registers Scheme provisions. I consider myself to be a Cleveland Bay purist and as such accept that the existing approved Grade Register Scheme with its built in safeguards aimed at maintaining the existing Breed Standard is an important part of preserving the pure Cleveland Bay horse. I would encourage all those who say that they want to grade up horses to do so under the terms and conditions of the existing scheme, which is approved by the Society and by the Rare Breed Survival Trust. More importantly I would urge people to breed and register with the CBHS more pure foals, to retain more colts for use and to compete their horses so that peope can see what they can achieve.
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Pembridge
Member
In answer to your comment re the Lippi's a carriage horses It depends whether you are driving for a hobby /competition / or 'commercially'
Commercially you have to provide what the client envisiges and so often it is a fairytale grey for a wedding and a black for a funeral It has nothing to do with the breed pf the horses , just the perception of the hirer