Cleveland Bay Debate in this weeks HHO

Zuzan said:
How true...

My big bug bear with the whole debate is lack of hard evidence by either side..

OK so someone has found a genetic link to the Kabardin.. I would love to see the study that identified the link? How close is it this link compared to that between the TB and the CB? Are there TBs which have a stronger Turk heritage than Arab? Which I would assume would be closer to the CB genetically .. at a guess.. (NB Turks weren't a breed but a breeding programme set up by the Ottoman Empire and there are far more Turks than the Byerley embedded in both TB and CB.)

Is the Kabardin genetic similarity due to the Turk influence on both the Kabardin and the CB (as well as the TB) or is it that they were one and the same breed that the Romans imported to the UK? or even both.. it all is a bit academic as far as I can see..

and someone else has said that Kabardins lack quality.. WHAT quality are we talking about?? on what evidence??? Has any one in the CBHS gone to the Caucasus to see Kabardins?

What exactly is this "quality" that people keep banging on about? I think we need to be more specific than just saying Quality.. is it action.. ? hardiness? temperament?

The main problem I see is that the Irish and the Continentals have been FAR FAR better at marketing what are often quite 2nd rate horses to the UK market and unfortunately there is a general belief that if you want performance you have to either have a "WB" (even if bred in the UK but using imported WB pedigrees)

The CBHS has done little very ineffectively as far as I can see to market the CB and CB part bred as performance horses in any discipline.

Fashionable WB and ISH stallions have performance credentials that most CB stallions don't have .. as in proven competition stock (outside of CB showing classes) on the ground or their own records in any one discipline. This is what the high end of the market looks for.

There is a real need for the CBHS / breeders / enthusiasts to culturally shift away from traditional showing which it seems to me many breeders seem to be more stuck on.. every CB mag goes on and on about CB showing classes at shows .. which to me seem utterly out of sync with the rest of the equine world.. CB classes don't prove anything to the uninitiated.. by all means go on showing but don't expect these classes to be an effective marketing tool.

Oh and this royal carriage horse connection.. doesn't really wash .. unless of course you are carriage driver.. which few of us are.. so that doesn't work as a marketing tool either.. especially when the greys take pride of place and the house hold cavalry look so bloomin glam .. it really doesn't show the CB off to it's best advantage on tv..

Generally the traditional formats / methods are really no longer that relevant as far as I can see .. they have been overtaken by the modern "disciplines" of BS BD and BE .. Endurance and TREC should not be ignored either.. and their performance records.

It is worth thinking about the Lippi bred as a carriage horse but it is famous as the mount of the SRS
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I really do not have the time to answer point by point all issues that i have picked up in this forum. Suffice to say I would love to, because I read 'sense'. I can do nothing but agree re 'showing' re performance. i think that you can sum up the main of CB breeders as good stalwart farmers/caring conservationists.
I got into Cleveland's decades ago as I appreciated the power,mental prowess and athletic ability of the breed when bred correctly.
It did not take me long to discover that the main of breeders were non riders and so the breed was in the hands of non competitive owners. (Showing is just something that a competition yard does with youngsters to broaden their education until they are of riding age.)
 
Zuzan,

Perhaps I can answer your questions.

Dr. Andy Dell developed our SPARKS programme (basically a selective mating programme) for which he was given an award by the RBST.

He then undertook a major DNA study of the Cleveland Bay, for which I and many other CB breeders submitted samples. He discovered a link with the Kabardin and wrote to their breed society requesting DNA samples. This did indeed confirm the genetic relationship. DNA has changed our world.

Henry Edmunds, owner of the oldest CB stud in the UK Cholderton, conducted historical research, which traced the origins of the CB to the Roman occupation of Britain. He believes that the CB descended from imported Cavalry horses who were posted at Hadrian's Wall.

Interestingly someone on this forum wrote to me and told me that there are people living near Preston in Lancashire who are genetically linked to the people's of the Black Sea. As she said it seems reasonable to assume when they settled in Britain they brought their horses with them.

Here is a link to Dr. Dell's PhD thesis and Henry Edmund's fascinating article.

http://www.southernclevelandbayclub.co.uk/#/cleveland-world/4544115860
 
hi, just thought i would jog everyones memories didnt we hold some sort of test/competition with cleveland bay pure and part breds and irish pure and part breds involved and the result was that as far as i can remember that there wasnt really any difference it came down to the individual horses talent and had nothing to do with how they are bred
it goes to show if irish horses can compete at the top level so can cleveland bays
i think its time that we all started buying british
 
harveysmom said:
hi, just thought i would jog everyones memories didnt we hold some sort of test/competition with cleveland bay pure and part breds and irish pure and part breds involved and the result was that as far as i can remember that there wasnt really any difference it came down to the individual horses talent and had nothing to do with how they are bred
it goes to show if irish horses can compete at the top level so can cleveland bays
i think its time that we all started buying british
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Lincoln University used to run an annual competition CB's versus Irish Drafts.

The problem is that when the WW population is only 500 whereas there are 10,000 of warmbloods there will only be a small number who reach the top. Here are a few off the top of my head.

Spring Pascall 50% CB on the UK Junior Dressage Team

Natterjack Toad Champion Show Cob 50% CB

Baydale Venus 1/8th Supreme Champion Hack at HOYS

Hawlmark Classic Twiglight, 50% CB Cuddy qualifier for HOYS last year

Stainmore Reuban pure bred CB won his first hunter breeding class as a yearling and last year (?) went on to win Best in Show against all breeds

Stoneridge Merindah Jundah, pure CB, Small Hunter Champion, Qualifed for Scottish Masters as a Small Hunter in a big class and as Riding Club Champion won the Royal Highland Society Perpetual Trophy.

Kingsleys Mary Rose third in the UK cup as an endurance horse

Ravel 1/8th CB International Dressage

Badger Boy 50% CB Junior UK Event Team

I think most of us know about Powder Monkey, Arun Tor and Posh Paws

USA Feb 2012 Baile Hill CBxTB won Florida's three day competitive trail ride and he and his rider were given special award for best horse/rider combination. (Temps were in the 80's and his owner said she would never ride an Arab in such an event again)

2012 Olympic Games ONE part bred CB competed in the eventing team - representing Holland.

Going back a long way I was amazed to discover that at the Mexico Olympics as well as Harvey Smith's 50% CB Madison Time, 4 of the reserve team were young part-bred Cleveland Bays.
 
I just have to jump into this debate as well. I didn't attend the breed conference but was given a full break down of what occurred. As I see it, Andy Dell, whilst providing very useful information and developing the valuable SPARKS programme, is not au fait with the breed apart from the research he conducted for his thesis and has not dismissed the grading register but merely states his evidence points to more breeding through the SPARKS programme. Also he is not a geneticist but works or has worked for RBST and carried out his thesis on the CB. It would've been valuable if at the breed conference an impartial geneticist could've provided an unbiased view on the pro's and cons of grading up as seen by other species. As it stands at the moment all the arguements against GR are based purely on Andys thesis, which hardly provides an unbiased view and much of this debate is being based purely on this research without looking at wider views from renowned geneticists. I don't wish to make light of the thesis as it is a very good piece of work and all credit to Andy Dell and the amount if work it took to produce and collate.
I also wish to point out that the Karbardin horse is not conformationally correct as it has evolved into a cow hocked animal with a fiery temperament. Not exactly what I would want when it comes to breeding.
The situation is dire for the CB. Not enough is being done to market the horse, too much emphasis is being placed on breeding and getting foals on the ground when there is no market for them. It's a huge travesty for this breed as they are a beautiful horse with so much to offer. We cannot lose the essence of the breed but we must do something to increase the gene pool and make it a viable option when someone wishes to purchase a horse. With so many breeders retiring etc the numbers are likely to decline further within the next few years, what happens then?? What incentive is there for people with mares to breed? Lets face it few people now own their own land, many are on livery and cannot afford to breed either financially or time wise, the decline is going to be far quicker than anyone can imagine. I personally feel there should be a two prong strategy for the CB alongside the breeding of pures, allow the grading up process and marketing. After all the grading register is already in existence within the society, the vote was not about whether it should happen or not but on decreasing the %, allowing colts and the improver. If colts were allowed into the GR the society could effectively manage the use of these colts as stallions by allowing a limited license for example. It's hardly a doomsday situation to allow these colts into the GR, it's all about management. Again the improver is all about management and had we had a society that could provide an effective management strategy then it really wouldn't be an issue.
 
Firstly let me say I love the Cleveland bay, I have had the privilege to own 3 part breeds and all have been fantastic. But I would like to ask why none of the stallions are out there doing something to promote the breed, dressage, show jumping, even a bit of eventing. I have just spent the last 8 months looking for a pure or part breed that had done a little bit of riding club or similar. At last I have found a mare but looking back at her breeding, not one of her sires has done anything and most of the mares have been used for breeding only.

If this breed is to have a future it must gain popularity and that can only be done by getting out there and doing something. It seems to me that there a lot of lovely people who breed lovely animals and do nothing with them and this will be down fall of the breed.
 
Welly said:
Firstly let me say I love the Cleveland bay, I have had the privilege to own 3 part breeds and all have been fantastic. But I would like to ask why none of the stallions are out there doing something to promote the breed, dressage, show jumping, even a bit of eventing. I have just spent the last 8 months looking for a pure or part breed that had done a little bit of riding club or similar. At last I have found a mare but looking back at her breeding, not one of her sires has done anything and most of the mares have been used for breeding only.

If this breed is to have a future it must gain popularity and that can only be done by getting out there and doing something. It seems to me that there a lot of lovely people who breed lovely animals and do nothing with them and this will be down fall of the breed.
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Would that this was understood by the owner breeders. I have to be fair there are CB breeders that do breed performance pures/partbreds and get them out there, but the percentage is small.the traditional breeders breed for show and sale and many of them do not even ride themselves. Until this mindset is broken and the Cbs are out there competing on a level playing field against all breeds, their position will continue to decline.There is no earthly point in competing Cb's against CB's at internal shows that merely massage the ego of the owner breeder. CB's need to out there in the mainstream showing what they can do, in the right hands.
 
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Rollin said:
Lincoln University used to run an annual competition CB's versus Irish Drafts.

The problem is that when the WW population is only 500 whereas there are 10,000 of warmbloods there will only be a small number who reach the top. Here are a few off the top of my head.

Spring Pascall 50% CB on the UK Junior Dressage Team

Natterjack Toad Champion Show Cob 50% CB

Baydale Venus 1/8th Supreme Champion Hack at HOYS

Hawlmark Classic Twiglight, 50% CB Cuddy qualifier for HOYS last year

Stainmore Reuban pure bred CB won his first hunter breeding class as a yearling and last year (?) went on to win Best in Show against all breeds

Stoneridge Merindah Jundah, pure CB, Small Hunter Champion, Qualifed for Scottish Masters as a Small Hunter in a big class and as Riding Club Champion won the Royal Highland Society Perpetual Trophy.

Kingsleys Mary Rose third in the UK cup as an endurance horse

Ravel 1/8th CB International Dressage

Badger Boy 50% CB Junior UK Event Team

I think most of us know about Powder Monkey, Arun Tor and Posh Paws

USA Feb 2012 Baile Hill CBxTB won Florida's three day competitive trail ride and he and his rider were given special award for best horse/rider combination. (Temps were in the 80's and his owner said she would never ride an Arab in such an event again)

2012 Olympic Games ONE part bred CB competed in the eventing team - representing Holland.

Going back a long way I was amazed to discover that at the Mexico Olympics as well as Harvey Smith's 50% CB Madison Time, 4 of the reserve team were young part-bred Cleveland Bays.
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I read with interest your post re a handful of CB's that have achieved. I find it interesting that despite the fact that we have been breeding pure and part bred performance horses for decades we seem to have slipped below your radar.
I don't know where you are gleaning your information from, but our horses and their achievements are well cataloged.We have many that have achieved FEI status and at a rough count we have easily 20+ that have achieved in the olympic disciplines. As a working member of the CBHS it beggers belief that you are not even aware what your active breeders have and are achieving in the competition world. I am sure for example that the name Pembridge Minstrel FEI rings a bell One of the most successful eventing stallons of all time 346 BE points. Or how about Pembridge Victor FEI Pembridge Rocket Pembridge Endeavour.FEI It really should not be necessary for me to be telling you . The society are failing miserably to promote those that are succeeding.
I do believe that one of our pure stallions Pembridge Justinian. that was with you for a while is now riding and competing well. Our pure stallions all compete.Nobody in the society promotes the competing horses unless you are part of the clique. There you go I have said it .
www.pembridgestud.com
 
Lists of CB achievements is always going to miss someone out and the list is out of date anyway. For instance Spring Pascal is competing and getting placed at Grand Prix.
Finding a stallion that is currently competing and suits your mare is difficult. So I used Grenadier (NASTA tested and BD points) on my rare mare under the now defunct Selected Mating Scheme as he was also a good physical match. But apart from stallion searching we need lists that suit our market. Our market is not looking for Grand Prix horses. We need lists of horses currently hunting with which pack, horses on PC and Riding Club teams.
Incidentally, that mare I bred will go to Brayden this spring. He is also the result of the Selected Mating Scheme - Tsar to Karen's rare mare and is a Premium stallion. Arcadian Apollo was a result of the scheme, does anyone know if he was gelded? Pembridge didn't you have a mare on the scheme?
 
I do not usually post in open forums but need to correct some factual inaccuracies in Vichy B's post in this thread.
As I see it, Andy Dell, whilst providing very useful information and developing the valuable SPARKS programme, is not au fait with the breed apart from the research he conducted for his thesis and has not dismissed the grading register but merely states his evidence points to more breeding through the SPARKS programme. ​
I have been breeding Cleveland Bay's since 1995 with my partner Jill under the prefix Endmoor. Some of our progeny can be seen actively competing today eg. the pure bred gelding Endmoor Excalibur and the part bred gelding Endmoor Firecracker. Our pure bred filly Endmoor Amazing Grace has gone on to become a premium mare in her own right and has pure progeny of her own under the Childrey prefix. I served on the Council of the CBHS from the late 1990s until 2007 including two terms on the breed committee, and to date I have contributed to all 5 breed conferences.
Also he is not a geneticist but works or has worked for RBST and carried out his thesis on the CB. ​
I have never worked for the RBST. Two anonymous Cleveland Bay breeders nominated me for the 2008 Marsh Christian Trust Award for technical support for conservation of biodiversity, which is managed by the RBST and I was delighted to be presented with that award. Lincoln University approach me to write up the work I had done with the breed and the SPARKS breed management programme. This grew into first a Masters and then a PhD thesis for which I was awarded a Doctorate in Conservation Biology. The RBST provided matched funding to help with costs associated with mitochondrial DNA testing of a representative sample of Cleveland Bay horses, which formed part of the work of my thesis.
It would've been valuable if at the breed conference an impartial geneticist could've provided an unbiased view on the pro's and cons of grading up as seen by other species.​
Dr Ian Gill and I both spoke at the recent CBHS conference along with Colin Green who presented the case for amending the present grading register regulations. Dr Ian Gill did not represent the RBST but spoke to give the general background to grading up and its implications, I spoke to put things in the context of the Cleveland Bay horse,
As it stands at the moment all the arguments against GR are based purely on Andys thesis, which hardly provides an unbiased view and much of this debate is being based purely on this research without looking at wider views from renowned geneticists.​
The debate about changes to the grading register regulations began a long time before my thesis was published. In fact the body of the thesis hardly refers to the grading register. It focuses on analysis of the breed through pedigree and molecular mean (microsatellite and mitochondrial DNA analysis) and examines the effectiveness of the SPARKS breed management programme that I helped the CBHS implement in 2004 and continues today. This involves maximising diversity by controoling the rate of increase in inbreeding using mean kinships. This is exactly the same science used in the management of captive endangered wildlife populations throughout the world.
I don't wish to make light of the thesis as it is a very good piece of work and all credit to Andy Dell and the amount if work it took to produce and collate. I also wish to point out that the Karbardin horse is not conformationally correct as it has evolved into a cow hocked animal with a fiery temperament. Not exactly what I would want when it comes to breeding. ​
Since the publication of my thesis I have been asked to investigate genetic links with other breeds. This can be done by comparing banked Cleveland Bay mitochondrial DNA sequences with those from research on other breeds. Recent work at the Max Planc institute in Leipzig has produced a wealth of DNA sequences from otherwise poorly researched domestic equine breeds. This is held in the international NCBI genetic database and forms a valuable resource for comparative study. There are essentially only four mitochondrial DNA haplotypes present in the pure Cleveland Bay. These appear in other breeds too (until very recently it was thought that all domestic equines decended from only 77 founder mares). IF the Cleveland Bay population became so genetically compromised that grading up was the only course of action available to it, then I argued that it would be better to grade up to a breed that was both genetically and phenotypically similar to the present breed.
The situation is dire for the CB. Not enough is being done to market the horse, too much emphasis is being placed on breeding and getting foals on the ground when there is no market for them. It's a huge travesty for this breed as they are a beautiful horse with so much to offer. We cannot lose the essence of the breed but we must do something to increase the gene pool and make it a viable option when someone wishes to purchase a horse.​
The management of genetically compromised breeds is a difficult one, where unlike in the case of zoo animals, the breeding population remains in the hands of dedicated breeders and not in the sole control of a population manager. The SPARKS breed management programme has shown that when the information is made readily available to aid breeder's choice it is possible to increase Effective Population size by managing the rate of increase in inbreeding. Inbred populations can be viable. It is a case of maximizing the number of foals on the ground and using as broad a range of males and females in the breeding programme as possible. The thoroughbred horse itself is proof of this.
I personally feel there should be a two prong strategy for the CB alongside the breeding of pures, allow the grading up process and marketing. After all the grading register is already in existence within the society, the vote was not about whether it should happen or not but on decreasing the %, allowing colts and the improver.​
Dr. Philip Sponenberg, in the USA is one of the greatest advocates of grading up programmes. He fully supports the use of grading up schemes for genetic conservation but not if they change the breed you are trying to conserve in the first place. He also argues that the success or failure of rare breeds is determined by Market Market Market. However if the existing breed does not fit the market then there is no point changing the breed as you loose what you are trying to conserved. Instead go out and generate appropriate markets. The Cleveland Bay can stand on its own four feet in the market place both as a pure bred and a part bred and as a pre-potent improver of other breeds.The greatest threats to the Cleveland Bay were the process of tarmacadamming roads and the little grey fergie tractor. Many people on this thread had noted the success of the part-bred Cleveland Bay in the various competitive equine disciplines. Yes we have been poor at showcasing the success of the breed in these field and need to work on promoting the market, but we must not go around the old loop of taking the eye of the basic fact that without the pure bred there is no long term future for the part bred.
If colts were allowed into the GR the society could effectively manage the use of these colts as stallions by allowing a limited license for example. It's hardly a doomsday situation to allow these colts into the GR, it's all about management. Again the improver is all about management and had we had a society that could provide an effective management strategy then it really wouldn't be an issue. ​
The use of colts in any grading up scheme is one that needs considerable thought. Sponenberg has illustrated that Grading Register colts would be best used in the last stage of any grading up process so that both the mitochondrial halpotype of the pure female and the Y chromosome of the pure male get passed up in any progeny being entered in the full studbook.
I have actively promoted access to information on both sides of the grading register debate including to two articles that appeared in back editions of the RBST magazine "The Ark". However, the debate has run its democratic process and it is now time to move forward and ensure that this great breed survives and thrives because of the Society and the people that care for it and not despite them!!!!
 
Pembridge said:
I read with interest your post re a handful of CB's that have achieved. I find it interesting that despite the fact that we have been breeding pure and part bred performance horses for decades we seem to have slipped below your radar.
I don't know where you are gleaning your information from, but our horses and their achievements are well cataloged.We have many that have achieved FEI status and at a rough count we have easily 20+ that have achieved in the olympic disciplines. As a working member of the CBHS it beggers belief that you are not even aware what your active breeders have and are achieving in the competition world. I am sure for example that the name Pembridge Minstrel FEI rings a bell One of the most successful eventing stallons of all time 346 BE points. Or how about Pembridge Victor FEI Pembridge Rocket Pembridge Endeavour.FEI It really should not be necessary for me to be telling you . The society are failing miserably to promote those that are succeeding.
I do believe that one of our pure stallions Pembridge Justinian. that was with you for a while is now riding and competing well. Our pure stallions all compete.Nobody in the society promotes the competing horses unless you are part of the clique. There you go I have said it .
www.pembridgestud.com
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Dear Pembridge - just a list off the top of my head. I would have expected you to add to it.
 
I think it's important that CB breeders, owners and fans not disparage the value of classes for Cleveland Bays alone. There is no other venue for evaluating CBs, side-by-side, to decide which is the best example of the breed in front of a given judge on a given day. Breed inspections for stallions have largely been shelved, leaving only these classes as a means for an outsider to comparatively assess which Cleveland Bays best embody the ideals of the breed.

I am a total fan of pure and part CBs competing in open classes as well, but believe we must absolutely place significant value on our own shows and classes.
 
I have not seen or heard about any evidence of CB breeders, owners and fans being disparaging about the value of classes for Cleveland Bays alone as claimed by magnificsporthorses. Where have you seen or heard about it happening?

The Cleveland Bay Horse Society supports a full annual calendar of breed shows across the UK each year where Cleveland bay horses compete against each other and are ranked by judges against the CB Breed Standards.

The Showing Committee liaises with national / county show organisers to ensure that Cleveland Bay classes at them are maintained and where possible and practical to obtain new events. Regrettably the numbers of horses entered at some shows has declined which is not surprising given the present economic climate and because fewer pure and part bred horses are being bred.

The Society holds its National Cleveland Bay Championship Breed Show at the Equifest.

The Society was approached in 2012 by the Rare Breed Survival Trust to become involved in a new show, the Rare Breeds Heritage Event. It supported it. Ms Lynette Sumner gave a ridden demonstration on her pure Cleveland Bay stallion Southbrook Spellbound that she jointly owns with Mr. Jimmy Warren. I understand that the Society plans to support the event again next September.

The pure and part bred Cleveland Bay classes at the Great Yorkshire Show are both cuddy qualifiers so they are able to compete in the breed classes and then in open competition against all of the other class winners which helps to promote the breed to a wider audience.

The King George V Cup competition was held at Lincoln University this year but there were only four premium stallions forward. Not all stallion owners put their horses forward to be inspected for a premium stallion award. The Society has been advised by the Rare Breed Survival Trust and by geneticists such as Dr Ian Gill to try to widen out the number of pure stallions that are bred from each year so as to maintain the maximum amount of the existing genetic diversity available within the pure population. As a result instead of only paying premium status stallion owners a payment when their horse sires a pure foals that is registered in its stud book it has sought funding from the Horse Racing Levy Board to pay all stallion owners whose stallions (including premium status stallions) sire a pure foal that is registered with it in its stud book a stallion premium payment. It is hoped that will encourage more people to use a wider range of stallions on their mares than happens now and for some people to consider standing a stallion themselves. As a consequence of all of this the CBHS has also decided to open up the King George V Cup competition to all pure Cleveland Bay horses just as it was previously when for example the yearling colt, Principal Boy and the mare Scragglethorpe Attraction won it. Mares and stallions will still be able to be put forward by their owners to be inspected against the Breed standard to see if they merit being given a premium status award so breeders will still have the option of using such horses if they wish to.

The Society decided at a recent Council Meeting to establish a Futurity Scheme where horses will again be assessed and benchmarked against how closely they conform to the the existing Cleveland Bay Breed Standards.

It is not correct to assert as magnificsporthorses has done that ” Breed inspections for stallions have largely been shelved, leaving only these classes as a means for an outsider to comparatively assess which Cleveland Bays best embody the ideals of the breed.”

Like magnificsporthorses “ I am a total fan of pure and part CBs competing in open classes as well, but believe we must absolutely place significant value on our own shows and classes”. I believe that the Society, Cleveland Bay breeders and owners do place significant value on Cleveland Bay breed shows but also think that like other breeds the Cleveland Bay, and in particular the part bred Cleveland Bay horse has to be seen out competing in open competition against all comers if it is to have a meaningful presence in the wider equine community.
 
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In addition to the above stallions are licenced for breeding purposes by the Society. Part bred stallions have to be independently vetted and approved by the CBHS Council before being issued with a part bred breeding licence. Pure stallions can be awarded either a Basic Stallion Licence, a Quality Assured Stallion Licence or a Premium Stallion Award. To obtain a Basic Stallion Licence a stallion has to be independently vetted and approved by the CBHS Council. To get a Quality Assured Licence a stallion also has to have foals on the ground and to pass a Breed Standard inspection carried out by the Society's Horse Assessors. Quality Assured Stallion owners can put their horse forward to be inspected each year against the Breed Standard and the top ten of them are given a Premium Status Award.
 
I am very glad that all these successful cleveland bays are getting a mention ,as it will hopefully stop people thinking that bay horse must be irish, as happened several times while i was at the great yorkshire show this year
We must also learn to celebrate all cleveland successes however small as they are all good advertising for the breed
to date my horses were at equifest,great yorkshire,rare breeds heritage show and the royal london, they are geldings considered scrap by CBHS and breeders alike, when will it be recognised the contribution they make to advertising the breed. i am a bit fed up of hearing that not enough people compete their clevelands [ he without sin cast the first stone] whos fault is that. More people need to get their clevelands out in-hand or ridden it doesnt matter, they arent going to get noticed in their fields, so next year get them out and give the judge something to look at other than an empty ring
interesting to note the cleveland bay classes held at the royal london were very well attended which means they had to qualify somewhere , which means clevelands are competing and winning at the lower levels [with amatuer riders] against other breeds
that does rather point to the fact that cleveland bays have still got what it takes
 
"There will be no more premium stallions at the moment" because "the scheme is not working" is the information I received from the current CBHS Breed Committee chair. I also understand that the long-standing panel of horse inspectors was dismissed by the Council en bloc, to be replaced by a system of rotating Council members functioning as "horse assessors" whose qualifications and job description has not been shared with the membership as of yet. I am not certain about the fate of the QA program that JohnPatrick references, and look forward to learning about the futurity program.

I am glad to hear that in the UK that the breed classes are not disparaged. Over here in North America, the NA Cleveland Bay society has repeatedly de-valued the Cleveland Bay classes with respect to its own performance awards program, with the unfortunate end result that fewer people who participate in the Cleveland Bay classes also participate in the society's awards program, and become less involved with the organization as a whole.
 
harveysmom said:
I am very glad that all these successful cleveland bays are getting a mention ,as it will hopefully stop people thinking that bay horse must be irish, as happened several times while i was at the great yorkshire show this year
We must also learn to celebrate all cleveland successes however small as they are all good advertising for the breed
to date my horses were at equifest,great yorkshire,rare breeds heritage show and the royal london, they are geldings considered scrap by CBHS and breeders alike, when will it be recognised the contribution they make to advertising the breed. i am a bit fed up of hearing that not enough people compete their clevelands [ he without sin cast the first stone] whos fault is that. More people need to get their clevelands out in-hand or ridden it doesnt matter, they arent going to get noticed in their fields, so next year get them out and give the judge something to look at other than an empty ring
interesting to note the cleveland bay classes held at the royal london were very well attended which means they had to qualify somewhere , which means clevelands are competing and winning at the lower levels [with amatuer riders] against other breeds
that does rather point to the fact that cleveland bays have still got what it takes
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I for one do not regard geldings as scrap, nor do two people who have been in touch with me looking for CB's. We have another foal due end Feb/early March I will be delighted whatever it is.

We lost a superb colt two years ago, who would had he survived, already have his competition career in France planned for him.

As far as competition is concerned I would love to see more CB stallions presented ridden rather than in hand. I think we should, like other British Native Breeds have a HOYS Championship.
 
Hello magnificsporthorses. If you had been at the recent Cleveland Bay Horse Society Annual General Meeting on the 20th October 2012 then you would have heard Mrs. Barbara Martindale, Chair of the CBHS Breed Committee say in answer to a question that people can still put their mares and stallions forward to be inspected for a premium status award but that stallion owners would no longer receive a premium payment for obtaining that status. She went on to say that premium stallion owners would not be restricted in respect to what they are entitled to charge mare owners for covering their mares.

What has changed is that there will no longer be an exclusive premium stallion scheme where only premium status stallions are eligible to compete for the annual King George V Cup and receive premium payment for doing so. The annual stallion show has been opened up to include all registered and licenced pure stallions. The Society has asked for £1,000 from the HRLB to achieve this along with a further £1,000 to cover the cost of the Futurity Competition prizes and inspections.

The CBHS Council Meeting minutes make clear that Mrs. Mary Douthwaite, the Society President and a Council Member will judge the 2013 King George V Cup competition.

You state above: “I also understand that the long-standing panel of horse inspectors was dismissed by the Council en bloc, to be replaced by a system of rotating Council members functioning as "horse assessors" whose qualifications and job description has not been shared with the membership as of yet. I am not certain about the fate of the QA program that JohnPatrick references, and look forward to learning about the futurity program “.

First there are no plans to alter the Quality Assured Stallion Licence system. The fate of it is not in any doubt so I don’t understand why you have raised this point?

As a Society member you are already aware from the Council Meeting minutes why the former Horse Inspectors have been replaced by Horse Assessors so again I am not clear why you have raised this on this forum?

Under Powers and Duties of Council, Appointment of Committees 21(c) the Council may: -
“ Delegate any of their powers and duties (except the appointment and removal of Members of their body and of the Society) to Committees of any number (not less than three) of members of their body, and from time to time make, alter and rescind regulations and bye-laws for conducting the business delegated to such Committees provided that all acts and undertakings of any such Committee shall be fully reported to the Council as soon as possible.”

Some of the previous Horse Inspectors had not actually been properly appointed as such by the CBHS Council as was required under the governing document powers and duties. As Charity Trustees the Council had to correct that situation when they became aware of it. The former Horse Inspectors who were not Council members could not be included as three of the body of the CBHS Council referred to in Article 21©.

Since 2007 the CBHS Breed Committee has responsibility for horse inspections including the appointment of Horse Inspectors. The Breed Committee agreed that the Horse Inspectors, now called Horse Assessors should be made up of members on their body as well as other suitably qualified and experienced people. One reason for that was to ensure that there was a rotation of Horse Assessors and to encourage some younger people to put themselves forward to be trained to do this. The Futurity Scheme that will be rolled out will involve training for Horse Assessors.

I am of the opinion that just as it is good practice to have a turn over of people on the Council, something that the Charity Commission advised and is now reflected in the Society Memorandum and Articles of Association concerning the appointment onto the Council that it is also in the interest of the breed to rotate the people that have been responsible for carrying out the various horse inspections.

I am not aware about the situation that you describe in North America about the CBHSNA’s performance award scheme so can’t comment on it other than to say that the CBHSNA is not an affiliated body of the CBHS and continually bringing up negative issues does no good for the reputation of the Cleveland Bay horse breed where ever they are located.
 
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Just to clarify -- The notes I received were dated 27 September and 15 October 2012 and made clear that there would be no premium status for stallions, although mares could continue to be put forward but without the financial awards. I am sorry if this contradicts information put forward to the AGM. I will seek clarification from the Breed Chair. Thanks for pointing this out.

Your reference is also the first mention I have seen that indicates people other than current council members will be part of the panel of assessors. Seems to me there could have been a smoother way to make the transition than to lose all of the expertise of years of inspections in one fell swoop.

Sadly, the societies are alienating people who are out there breeding purebred and partbred Cleveland Bay horses. The culture of control should be replaced by a culture of inclusion if these horses are going to continue to exist. Each breeder, or potential breeder, who is discouraged represents very possibly a significant loss to the breed.

The negative issues are human-driven, not the fault of the horses. There are real issues, and it lies upon the shoulders of those with decision-making authority to make policy in a way that heals and draws the community together, rather than to drive it apart. I haven't really seen that yet, but I eagerly anticipate that positive steps will be taken.
 
The CBHS Chair Of Breed Committee, Barbara Martindale pointed out back in February 2012, as can be seen in the appendices to the Council Meeting of the 4th March 2012 that are available for members to view on the Society website that: ” Of the utmost importance is that we MUST always work within the rules and regulations of the Society’s Memorandum and Articles.”

She said that “I have reviewed the CBHS Memorandum and Articles of Association to ascertain what is the approved role and responsibility of the Horse Inspector only to find that they are not mentioned anywhere in these documents. They do not appear to me to have any approved powers other than acting as a subcommittee of the Breed Committee which must consist of at least three people.”

When the Society carried out a review of it’s structure and ways of working back in 2007 it agreed a report at the AGM known as “Forging the Future”. In advance of that happening a discussion document was issued to all of the membership setting out what the Council was attempting to achieve. One of the issues in respect to committees was that “ Each committee would have the power to co-opt individuals from outside of Council when appropriate. Non CBHS Members co-opted would not have a right to vote. Co-opted CBHS members would have a right to vote. Council members will at all times remain in the voting majority. The report on “Forging the Future “ agreed at the 2007 AGM included the provisions that each CBHS Committee had the power to create appropriate standing sub committees and working groups e,g. SPARKS, Horse Inspectors, Southern Club plus could co-opt extra members as appropriate provided that Council members (Trustees) are always in the majority and no non members of the CBHS has a vote.”

I am surprised that as a CBHS member you state above that :

“Your reference is also the first mention I have seen that indicates people other than current council members will be part of the panel of assessors. Seems to me there could have been a smoother way to make the transition than to lose all of the expertise of years of inspections in one fell swoop.”

Most of the former Horse Inspectors were not CBHS Council Members.The Society had to put in place a sub committee of horse assessors in order to carry out horse inspections correctly under it's delegated powers. The people appointed from the CBHS Breed Committee were all very experienced individuals with the breed and had for example judged it at national breed shows and been involved with the Society for years

At the 2012 AGM Barbara Martindale also made it clear that anyone, including the previous Horse Inspectors could put their names forward to become Horse Assessors.

I am disappointed that you state that: “Sadly, the societies are alienating people who are out there breeding purebred and partbred Cleveland Bay horses. The culture of control should be replaced by a culture of inclusion if these horses are going to continue to exist. Each breeder, or potential breeder, who is discouraged represents very possibly a significant loss to the breed.”

Every organization has to have rules and as a Registered Charity and Defra approved Stud Book holder that applies to the CBHS more than it does to some less formal bodies and clubs.

I understand that a minority of CBHS members such as yourself and some of the former Horse inspectors are not happy that the Society didn’t approve the proposed grade register change proposals that you have actively championed over the last years but the whole membership were given the opportunity to vote on this issue at the 2012 AGM and decided overwhelmingly not to agree to make the changes. As Dr Andrew Dell has said above “the debate has run its democratic process and it is now time to move forward and ensure that this great breed survives and thrives because of the Society and the people that care for it and not despite them!!!!” To do otherwise is to risk causing damage to the breed's future.
 
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John Patrick, you wrote "the whole membership were given the opportunity to vote on this issue at the 2012 AGM and decided overwhelmingly not to agree to make the changes." Contrary to your characterization, I understand that a majority of 57 percent of the members who voted on the issue actually voted IN FAVOR of one of the three major prongs of the proposal. Unfortunately the threshold required for adoption was 75 percent in favor.

You may wish to dismiss this "minority" -- but were I in your position, I would be instead seeking to find common ground with many of these people who have devoted their lives (and in some cases generations of their families' lives) to breeding these special horses, and are quite concerned with where the breed is going. Winning control is the easy part. It's the successful governance that is the real trick.
 
magnificsporthorses said:
You may wish to dismiss this "minority" -- but were I in your position, I would be instead seeking to find common ground with many of these people who have devoted their lives (and in some cases generations of their families' lives) to breeding these special horses, and are quite concerned with where the breed is going. Winning control is the easy part. It's the successful governance that is the real trick.
Click to expand...

Yes, the 2012 President cautioned against this proposal. He owns the oldest Cleveland Bay stud in the UK three generations of commitment to the Cleveland Bay. The current Chair of our Breed Committee has been breeding Cleveland Bays for 30 years. So who are the minority you refer to?

Please bear in mind that at the 2011 AGM an attempt was made to push through the proposals without affording the membership a Proxy Vote.
 
Magnificsporthorses.

I just want to add to my earlier post.

I sat in the 2006 CBHS AGM at which postal voting was discussed. The then Chair, said if people were really interested they would travel to Yorkshire, if they could not be bothered why should they have a vote.

That includes you and me. USA and France. Even some members from Wales have to undertake two days of travel plus hotel bills to attend the AGM.

The very people who you criticise are the shakers and rattlers who have brought in postal voting and proxy voting. That means you do not have to fly from Washington DC to Heathrow, make your way to Yorkshire - just to have your say. You can vote without leaving the USA.
 
For the benefit of people who are not aware about the three Special Resolutions in Agenda item 5 of the CBHS AGM agenda for the membership to vote on they are as follows: -

“ 5.1. Grading Register rule change-All Horses will be placed within the Grading Register according to their % of pure Cleveland Bay blood. Both male and female horses to be treated the same throughout their progression through the Grading Register and also into the Pure Stud Book.
COUNCIL RECOMMENDS VOTING AGAINST THIS RESOLUTION.

5.2. Grading Register rule changes- The percentage of pure blood required for a horse to be eligible to go into the pure Stud Book to be reduced to 93.7% from the current 96.9% requirement.
COUNCIL RECOMMENDS VOTING FOR THIS RESOLUTION but only in respect to it applying to grading up under the terms and conditions outlined in the existing Grade Register Scheme Rules.

5.3. Grading Register rule changes- To empower the Council of the CBHS to Fast Track a grading register horse that has been identified by the Breed committee and approved by Council as being of exceptional value to the pure breed.
(Currently covered under the Contingency section).
COUNCIL RECOMMENDS VOTING AGAINST THIS RESOLUTION.

The CBHS is listed with Companies House as a Company Limited by Guarantee, (Number 22866).

The CBHS is a Registered Charity (Number 293872) that regulates, promotes and preserves Pure and Part Bred Cleveland Bay Horses

As such it has to comply with both Company law such as the 2006 Companies Act and with Charity Laws that are in force here in the UK.

The CBHS governing documents, it’s Memorandum & Articles of Association state at Article 29, Special business that:

“ All business shall be deemed special that is transacted at an Extraordinary Meeting, and also that which is transacted at an ordinary Meeting, with the exception of the election of members of the Council and the consideration of Accounts and Balance Sheets, and the ordinary report of the Council.”

What that means is that in line with Article 29 and present legal provisions the proposed changes to the existing Grade Registers Scheme had to be treated as Special Resolutions and not as Ordinary Resolutions. To pass a Special Resolution 75% or more of the voting membership present at the AGM plus valid proxy votes received had to vote in favor of the resolution.

The 2012 CBHS AGM was the first one at which all Society members were afforded the right to vote on resolutions put to it by either attending in person themselves or by authorizing another member who was at the meeting to act as their proxy and to vote on their behalf.

The Society has members here in the UK and overseas in Europe, in North America and in Australasia so the 2012 AGM vote was conducted in a far more democratic way than has happened before.

The result of the vote at the AGM for each of the three special resolutions was as follows: - 5.1. 40% For, 5.2. 57% For and 5.3. 32.7% For so all of them fell well short of the 75% or more required in favor to pass them.

The fact that the CBHS Council recommended to the members that members should vote in favor of Special Resolution 5.2, but only in respect to it applying to grading up under the terms and conditions outlined in the existing Grade Register Scheme Rules which would have meant for example that it would only have applied to fillies and not to colts some members have said that it encouraged some of them to vote for it when they would otherwise not have done so because they wrongly thought that they would only be voting in favor of it in so far as it had been limited in the Council’s recommendation. That was not correct. They would have been voting for the words in the Special Resolution. The Council recommendation that tried to limit its impact was not a part of the wording of the Special Resolution. Some members said that they didn’t appreciate that when they cast their vote in favor of agreeing with Special resolution 5.2 and that they would have voted against it had it been explained to them properly prior to them casting their vote either in proxy or in person.

Magnificsporthorses incorrectly stated in the earlier post above on 09-11-12, 02:31 PM about the Horse & Hounds magazine article that: -

“The piece also states that the membership voted 60-40 against certain provisions of the proposed changes. It neglected to mention that 60 percent of the membership voted in favor of reducing the number of generations required for pure breeding prior to entrance into the full stud book, indicating majority support for some aspect of "grading up".
As you now appreciate that is not the case.

Some of the former 2011 CBHS Council Members, including some that were Horse Inspectors tried to force these changes through without giving the membership the right to have a Breed Conference first to get advice from experts in the field of genetics etc. Most of the longstanding Cleveland Bay horse breeders here in the UK and other Society members signed a petition to ask the Council to convene a Breed Conference because of the wildly inaccurate claims that were being made about the state of the breed. That was ignored. We were offered a pre 2011 AGM discussion about the grade register proposals so as not to take up too much time in the AGM itself. It was only when myself and two other CBHS members pointed out that members hadn’t been afforded the right to have a proxy vote at the 2011 AGM as was required under the 2006 Company Act provisions that the matter was deferred. A Breed Conference was then held on the 1st September 2012 and the Council reconsidered their position and the advice that they have been given at it not to implement the proposed changes at their meeting held on the 2nd September and made the recommendations to the membership set out against each of the three Special Resolutions put to the 2012 AGM for the members to decide one way or the other.

As I have said earlier, this issue has been debated to death and has taken up far too much valuable time distracting the attention of the Society and breeders away from the far more important task of implementing the initiatives identified in it’s agreed Strategy / Objectives Document that are aimed at preserving and increasing the number of pure Cleveland Bay horses. It is vitally important that all CBHS members and breeders focus their attention on this critical task and stop running down the breed’s and Society’s good reputation in the way that some appear to be determined to do.
 
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rollin - i am heartened to hear that someone supports the geldings and the good job they do towards advertising the CB
i also would like to see stallions out under saddle, but just out at all would be good
going back to geldings, had your colt survived was he to be gelded?
A HOYS championship would be wonderful, however it is just a dream you cant expect the HOYS organisers to include a cleveland class if we cant even fill the classes at our own national championship
Is there any chance at all we can coax a few more clevelands out of their fields and in to the showring next year so that potential buyers can see how impressive they are
i know i keep on about the Royal london but it was so well attended we out numbered the irish draught-not bad, pat on the back for all who attended
 
John patrick- i dont agree with your comment that people are actively trying ruin the reputation of the society and its members
i understand your focus on breeding good quality cleveland bays, however you cant just breed them and turn them out in a field and forget them,you need to sell them surely.
That is the concern of some people, there is no point breeding something that you cant sell.
So cleveland bays need to be out competing gaining that all important competition record,
pembridge has done it and he can sell his horses
Once there is a demand for cleveland bays their situation will reverse
so the two concerns go hand in hand
please get your horses into the shop window next year
 
Harveysmom you say that you don’t agree with me that some ” people are actively trying to ruin the reputation of the society and its members”

Do you seriously believe that when people such as magnificsporthorses and others regularly complain on this and on other public forums about the fact that the Society has not agreed with them about changing the existing grade registers scheme rules in the way that they want them to be altered that doing that will enhance the reputation of either the Society of the Cleveland Bay breed in the eyes of the wider equine community that we have to sell our horses to? I don’t. Do you think that it will encourage anyone to want to buy either a pure or a part bred Cleveland Bay horse if all that they keep on hearing on forums like this one is that the horses lack quality etc? Again I don’t.

My focus is on as you say, “ breeding good quality Cleveland Bays”. Given the very low number of pure Cleveland Bay foals being born and registered with the Society at the moment that should be the prime focus of all concerned Cleveland Bay breeders in the immediate future if we are going to have enough pure horses on the ground to sustain the pure Cleveland Bay horse population going forward.

I have three pure Cleveland Bay mares. I think that it is far more important for the breed’s survival for them to be used to breed good quality pure foals from at present than to take them away from that job to compete them instead. It is not easy to both breed from and compete mares at the same time.

Are you seriously suggesting that, with so few pure foals being born that some breeders can’t sell them? I don’t believe that from my experience. Without advertising them I have had two enquiries this week alone from people wanting to know if I had any Cleveland Bay horses for sale solely based upon my listing as a breeder on the Society’s website. I have passed those enquiries on to other breeders.

Perhaps I am fortunate but people who have come into contact with my horses regularly ask me if I will sell them to them because they tell me that they recognize them as being good quality horses. Some people weren’t aware when they asked me that they were pure Cleveland Bay horses and were surprised when I told them that they were because they haven’t seen any examples of the breed before but have usually heard the negative press about them.

I notice that Rollins has also had similar enquiries from people over in France that want to buy Cleveland Bay horses.

I agree with you and other commentators that the Cleveland Bay horse needs to be far better promoted to the general equine fraternity than it is has been so far, if only to dispel the inaccurate negative impression that some people have about it. I am pleased that the Society has applied to the HRLB for some additional funding to help it to advertise stallions to mare owners as other Societies do in advance of the covering season.

It is not all about horses having a competition record though. There are different potential sales markets for both pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses such as the large leisure and pleasure riding and driving ones which should not be ignored as others have already said.

I would personally prefer to see geldings and part bred Cleveland Bay horses out competing than pure Cleveland Bay mares. I would also like to see their owners promoting them as part bred Cleveland Bay when they are out competing. If people see part bred Cleveland Bay horses being successful when out competing horses, as I believe that they can be against other breeds and types of horses based upon the success of the likes of Spring Pascal, Baydale Venus and Hawlmark Classic Twilight to name a few that should generate interest in the breed and in retaining pure Cleveland Bays in order to be able to breed more good quality part bred horses in the future.
 
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harveysmom said:
rollin - i am heartened to hear that someone supports the geldings and the good job they do towards advertising the CB
i also would like to see stallions out under saddle, but just out at all would be good
going back to geldings, had your colt survived was he to be gelded?
A HOYS championship would be wonderful, however it is just a dream you cant expect the HOYS organisers to include a cleveland class if we cant even fill the classes at our own national championship
Is there any chance at all we can coax a few more clevelands out of their fields and in to the showring next year so that potential buyers can see how impressive they are
i know i keep on about the Royal london but it was so well attended we out numbered the irish draught-not bad, pat on the back for all who attended
Click to expand...

Had my colt survived, he would have been kept entire to replace his sire had he had the quality or gelded if not.

ALL my horses are backed when they are old enough. You may not be aware of the sad story with my existing stallion, purchased as a 3 year old and expensively backed in France. We found however, he did not want to canter on the left rein. My vet advised more schooling so he was sent to a top dressage rider who found the same. I thought he had a back problem my vet insisted he did not but top dressage rider agreed with me.

She recommended taking him to the Professor at Nantes, who found he had a badly healed fracture in his neck and two kissing spines probably caused by the same accident and not congenital. His diagnosis was these were old injuries probably caused during the first year of his life. It says a great deal about his temperament that he has NEVER attempted to buck me off even though he must have been in pain.

He was passed sound by a total of FIVE vets in UK and France but can never compete, otherwise you would certainly have seen him under the saddle, by the way the dressage trainer rated him highly.

He produces quality foals. Currently he has two three year old fillies one in France and one in the UK.
 
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