Cleveland Bay Debate in this weeks HHO

Rollin said:
Welcome to the debate 'Shell' I think you have a stunning filly called Miss Independence? It would be lovely to see some more photos on this forum if I have got it right. I was interested in one of your comments.

"I can't say for the CBHSA, as this is in my own words and thoughts on the Cleveland Bays. And yes there are far few Purebreds, I've watched and it seems that purebred foals don't survive hence the reason for the decline?"

Do you know how how many foals are lost? In Australia do you conduct an audit? My problem with letters I received from protagonists of proposed changes to the grading register did not have any empirical data to support their reasons for change.
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Hi Rollin,

Thank you but this isn't 'Shell' that owns the lovely Miss Indenependence, actually she was sold to Lynsworth Lodge Stud where these people show Cleveland Bays (part-breds). It's my part-bred gelding's breeder that I bought my horse from. We both have the same name 'Michelle' and people call us 'Shell' as well.

I can't quote on how many foals are lost but there were few foals that were sick, too weak or abort early. I don't know if our CBHSA keeps tabs on foals on how many alive/how many didn't make it, that sort of thing.

and for you JP...I've decided I'm not going to write any more as sounded like you are 'Control Freak' and have driven me away from. It's been nice knowing you and others on this forum.

Have great day and keep supporting the Cleveland Bay Worldwide...:)
 
Hello Rollin,

I wish you well with breaking Hattie, your plans to compete her in endurance events next year and to breed from her in 2014.

I am aware of some longstanding Cleveland Bay horse breeders here in the UK who pay the CBHS membership fee for people who buy foals from them, if they are not already members of the Society to ensure that the transfer of the horses that they have bred are recorded with the Society. Sadly that doesn’t always ensure that those people will continue to be members of the Society and in some cases when they have sold the horses on to other people that are not members of the CBHS they have become lost to the Cleveland Bay horse breeding population.

Like you I am always sad to hear about Cleveland Bay horses being lost to the breed what ever reason has caused that to come about.

You and I both are both aware that you are very closely connected with the CBHS Council member who was responsible for drafting the report that was tabled on the CBHS 2012 AGM agenda that contained the special and ordinary resolutions that members voted on at it, including the one concerning removing the present requirement in the Society’s Articles of Association that Council members have to be ordinarily resident in the UK so I would have thought that you would have already been made aware by that person that David Anderson, the former CBHS Chair of Council informed the members present at the AGM that Defra had advised the Society that it should remove the requirement from it’s Articles of Association. Obviously the members that were not present at the AGM and has already authorized another member that was going to be at it to cast their proxy vote at the AGM on their behalf wouldn’t have known about that fact in advance because it wasn’t included in the report issued to members.
 
Hello Humbugsey.

Thank you for posting the link to the video of the Duke Of Edinburgh’s part bred Cleveland Bay horses combined trials driving team. I enjoyed watching it.

You asked the question: -

“ I have no involvement in Cleveland’s but thought this video may be of interest, it's about the DofE's Cleveland x Oldenburgs in the 80's. Absolutely stunning mare shown at the beginning, does this mean none of the mews horses are registered as clevelands? “

H. M. The Queen is the Patron of the CBHS. She breeds pure Cleveland Bay horses that are registered with the CBHS under the prefix Hampton Court.

The last horse that I can see registered with the CBHS is Hampton Court Sheffield, Stud Book number 2790. He is out of Fryup Tiffany Stud Book Number 2238 and by Lindon Principal, Stud Book number 2558.

If you have a look at the CBHS Diamond Jubilee Edition of its Cleveland Bay Magazine, No 45 that was issued in 2012 there is an article on page 5 entitled ” The Royal Connection" that was written by the late Mr. Nigel Cowgill, the former CBHS Stud Book Editor in which he traces the royal Families long involvement with the Cleveland bay horse and Society back Her Majesty’s Grandfather George V to the present day. It is well worth the read.
 
Talkingshell said:
Hi Rollin,

Thank you but this isn't 'Shell' that owns the lovely Miss Indenependence, actually she was sold to Lynsworth Lodge Stud where these people show Cleveland Bays (part-breds). It's my part-bred gelding's breeder that I bought my horse from. We both have the same name 'Michelle' and people call us 'Shell' as well.

I can't quote on how many foals are lost but there were few foals that were sick, too weak or abort early. I don't know if our CBHSA keeps tabs on foals on how many alive/how many didn't make it, that sort of thing.

and for you JP...I've decided I'm not going to write any more as sounded like you are 'Control Freak' and have driven me away from. It's been nice knowing you and others on this forum.

Have great day and keep supporting the Cleveland Bay Worldwide...:)
Click to expand...

Ah ha!! I thought you were a Shelley, my sister's name.

All my working life was spent in health care so I always want to know 'Why?'. Do you have a problem in Australia with fescue grass? Millions of acres in the USA are contaminated and it does cause early abortion and difficult foalings.

I am particularly interested in nutrition both before and after foaling. A real hot topic as there is a school of thought that hard feed = big foals and for youngstock = OCD.

I don't agree with that. We feed our mares with a product designed for brood mares in the last few months, the same for weanlings, we feed an appropriate feed. For both our breeds we are finding our foals are strong and have plenty of bone.

I feel that as breed fans we should be enthusiastic about properly conducted research.
 
HumBugsey said:
I have no involvement in Clevelands but thought this video may be of interest, it's about the DofE's Cleveland x Oldenburgs in the 80's. Absolutely stunning mare shown at the beginning, does this mean none of the mews horses are registered as clevelands?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TRx502JW1k&feature=youtu.be
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Thank you for posting that link. A really interesting video - I did not know HRH preferred Hungarian harness!! (One of my two Shagya mares ex Babolna was broken to harness before saddle).

I am not sure that all of his HDT team horses were part breds? I think he used pure breds as well. I am delighted he speaks so highly of the calm temperament of the mare in the first picture. It is what I expect of all my horses.

Now my photo bucket is working I will post some photos of our new filly on the Breeder's Forum. She was bred by Nigel and Sue Cowgill and her full brother went to the Royal Mews as a Carriage Horse, he is now with the King's Troop.
 
Dear JP,
I understand your concerns with getting more horses registered with the mother society, but excluding a perfectly eligble horse because it is not registered is indeed a waste
with the risk of repeating myself again, the other societies are AWARE of the breed standards and are COOPERATING with the CBHS to ensure what they have registered is what would be acceptable to the CBHS. I feel that perhaps in the future we could try to consider the other societies as foreign branches of the CBHS as a way forward
you will not encourage people to work more closely with you with your approach
you have see other peoples concerns for the breed not just your own
 
In part 2 (i think) there's more about the horses. I think they were all CB/Oldenburg. I've read DofE's book "30 years on and off the box seat" and as well as being hilarious it has details of all the horses he stole from balmoral and the mews! lol Unfortunately I lent the book to LizzieJ and haven't got it back yet.

Hungarian harness is just breastcollar harness, as far as I'm aware the terms are interchangable just in the UK we used to only use collars are they're farrrrr more efficient. But a breast collar can fit multiple horses. I've used the same breastcollar on a 15.3hh clydey cross and a 17.2 Shire/Percheron!
 
I did not realise that breast collar/Hungarian meant the same. Thank you for the explanation. I have both types of collar but cannot use a breast collar with my Ralli Car (1910) as it has no swingle tree.
 
Like I said, as far as I know, they're the same. My boss used it interchangeably anyway!

Oooo a period rally car, very nice. I'd be finding a swingletree pronto and entering an attelage de tradition! :p
 
Hello Harveysmon.

You say: -

***8220; I understand your concerns with getting more horses registered with the mother society, but excluding a perfectly eligible horse because it is not registered is indeed a waste
with the risk of repeating myself again, the other societies are AWARE of the breed standards and are COOPERATING with the CBHS to ensure what they have registered is what would be acceptable to the CBHS. I feel that perhaps in the future we could try to consider the other societies as foreign branches of the CBHS as a way forward you will not encourage people to work more closely with you with your approach you have see other peoples concerns for the breed not just your own concerns;

With all due respect to you I dont think that you do understand my concerns.

The CBHS is not the mother Society to either the CBHSNA or the CBHSA. They are both completely separate independent bodies that have no formal link with the CBHS.

The CBHSNA doesnt have its own separate Stud Book. It does encourage people to register their pure bred horses with the CBHS in the breeds approved Stud Book so that they are maintained as pedigree Cleveland Bay horses.

The CBHSA does have its own separate Stud Book / Register that people can and do enter both their pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses into. Some people double register them with both the CBHS and with the CBHSA but as can be seen from the low number of pure Cleveland Bay horses that have been registered with the CBHS in its Stud Book that is becoming a rare event. More often people are only registering them with the CBHSA.

If as you say the CBHSA is working with and supporting the efforts of the CBHS why then does it need to have its own separate Stud Book? The CBHSNA doesnt feel the need to have one so why do they?

It is precisely because I dont want to see any horse that is eligible to be registered with the CBHS based upon its registered pedigree that I want them to be registered with the CBHS that is responsible for accrediting horses with the pedigree status of being pure Cleveland Bay horses. I dont want to see all of the hard work that their breeders and previous breeders before them have put in over the years to maintain their pedigree status by them not being registered in the breeds recognized Stud Book now as is required to maintain it. It will not be me, but rather the horses present day owner who has wasted all of that effort if they dont register them with the CBHS in its Stud Book.

The registered office of the CBHS is based in Harrogate, Yorkshire, UK. As such it and the Cleveland Bay breed Stud Book that it is the holder of is governed by English laws and as far as it applies to England also by EEC laws.

The relevant EEC law that governs whether or not a horse is eligible to be entered into a Stud Book here in the UK is covered in the European Commission Decision 96/78/EC.

It is as follows: -

EEC; 96/78/EC: COMMISSION DECISION of 10 January 1996 laying down the criteria for entry and registration of equidae in stud-books for breeding purposes (Text with EEA relevance) (96/78/EC).

THE COMMISSION OF THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES, Having regard to the Treaty establishing the European Community,

Having regard to Council Directive 90/427/EEC of 26 June 1990 on the zootechnical and genealogical conditions governing intra-Community trade in equidae (1), and in particular Article 4 (2) (b) thereof, Whereas under Article 4 (2) (b) of Directive 90/427/EEC the harmonized criteria governing the entry of equidae in stud-books should be established; Whereas it is therefore necessary to lay down the criteria for the entry of equidae in stud-books for breeding purposes; Whereas precise conditions relating to lineage and identification must be met prior to entry in the stud-book; Whereas allowance should be made for the division of the stud-book into different sections and classes so that certain types of animals will not be excluded; Whereas the measures provided for in this Decision are in accordance with the opinion of the Standing Committee on Zootechnics, HAS ADOPTED THIS DECISION:

Article 1.
1.To qualify for entry in the main section of the studbook of its breed registered equidae must:

- be descended from parents entered in the main section of a stud-book of that same breed and have a pedigree established in accordance with the rules of that stud-book,
- be identified as foal at foot according to the rules of that stud-book, which at least should require the covering certificate.
2. In derogation from the first indent of paragraph 1, an animal can be entered in the main section to take part in a cross breeding programme approved by the organization or association according to the rules of that stud-book. The cross breeding programme should mention the breeds which are allowed to take part.
Article 2.
1.The main section of a stud-book may be divided in conformity with No 3 (b), fifth indent, of the Annex of Commission Decision 92/353/EEC (2) laying down the criteria for the approval or recognition of organizations and associations which maintain or establish stud-books for registered equidae into several classes according to the animals' merits. Only equidae meeting the criteria laid down in Article 1 may be entered in one of those classes.
2. Where a stud-book contains several classes in the main section, an animal from another stud-book shall be entered in the class of the stud-book whose criteria it meets.
Article 3.
1. An organization or association keeping a stud-book may decide that an animal, which does not meet the criteria laid down in Article 1, may be entered in a supplementary section of that stud-book. The animal must meet the following requirements:
- be identified in accordance with the stud-book rules,
- - be judged to conform to the breed standard,
- have a minimum performance as laid down in the stud-book rules.
2. The organization or association should fix the rules allowing progeny of such animals to enter the main section.
Article 4. This Decision is addressed to the Member States. Done at Brussels, 10 January 1996. For the Commission. Franz FISCHLER. Member of the Commission. (1) OJ No L 224, 18. 8. 1990, p. 55. (2) OJ No L 192, 11. 7. 1992, p. 63. EEC 8220;

I have been informed by a person in Australasia that breeders who enter their horses into the CBHSA Stud Book now instead of in the CBHS Stud Book (including ones that wouldnt now be entitled to be admitted into the CBHS Stud Book because they dont meet its eligibility rules and regulations because for example they are by unlicensed stallions etc) that they would be able to mount a successful legal challenge against the CBHS if it refused to admit those horses into its Stud Book at some future date. That is not correct. If an Australasian Cleveland Bay breeder mounted such a challenge against the CBHS then it would be assessed against whether or not the CBHS had complied with the EEC rules and regulations that I have outlined above and not under the provisions of any other ones that might apply in another legal jurisdiction. The CBHS Stud Book entry rules conform to the prevailing EEC and Defra requirements. The Society has been very careful about what terms and conditions it sets in this regard.
There have been cases over the years of people approaching the Society to allow them to have their horses that are claimed to be Cleveland Bays (in some times many generations down the line when there is no verifiable record of their breeding) entered into its Stud Book as pure or part bred Cleveland Bay horses. Problems like this one could be so easily avoided by breeders registering their horses with the CBHS in its Stud Book.
To the best of my knowledge the CBHSA has no plans to be formally linked with the CBHS and wants to remain totally independent from it which is it***8217;s right so comments about daughter stud book arrangements etc are totally irrelevant.
 
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Hello Harveysmon.

You say: -

“ I understand your concerns with getting more horses registered with the mother society, but excluding a perfectly eligible horse because it is not registered is indeed a waste
with the risk of repeating myself again, the other societies are AWARE of the breed standards and are COOPERATING with the CBHS to ensure what they have registered is what would be acceptable to the CBHS. I feel that perhaps in the future we could try to consider the other societies as foreign branches of the CBHS as a way forward you will not encourage people to work more closely with you with your approach you have see other peoples concerns for the breed not just your own “

With all due respect to you I don’t think that you do understand my concerns.

The CBHS is not the mother Society to either the CBHSNA or the CBHSA. They are both completely separate independent bodies that have no formal link with the CBHS.

The CBHSNA doesn’t have it’s own separate Stud Book. It does encourage people to register their pure bred horses with the CBHS in the breeds approved Stud Book so that they are maintained as pedigree Cleveland Bay horses.

The CBHSA does have it’s own separate Stud Book / Register that people can and do enter both their pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses into. Some people double register them with both the CBHS and with the CBHSA but as can be seen from the low number of pure Cleveland Bay horses that have been registered with the CBHS in it’s Stud Book that is becoming a rare event. More often people are only registering them with the CBHSA.

If as you say the CBHSA is working with and supporting the efforts of the CBHS why then does it need to have it’s own separate Stud Book? The CBHSNA doesn’t feel the need to have one so why do they?

It is precisely because I don’t want to see any horse that is eligible to be registered with the CBHS based upon it’s registered pedigree that I want them to be registered with the CBHS that is responsible for accrediting horses with the pedigree status of being pure Cleveland bay horses. I don’t want to see all of the hard work that their breeders and previous breeders before them have put in over the years to maintain their pedigree status by them not being registered in the breeds recognized Stud Book now as is required. It will not be me, but rather the horses present day owner who has wasted all of that effort if they don’t register them with the CBHS in it’s Stud Book.

The registered office of the CBHS is based in Harrogate, Yorkshire, UK. As such it and the Cleveland Bay breed Stud Book that it is the holder of is governed by English laws and as far as it applies to England EEC laws.

The relevant EEC law that governs whether or not a horse is eligible to be entered into a Stud Book here in the UK is covered in the European Commission Decision 96/78/EC.

It is as follows: -

“ 96/78/EC: COMMISSION DECISION of 10 January 1996 laying down the criteria for entry and registration of equidae in stud-books for breeding purposes (Text with EEA relevance) (96/78/EC).

THE COMMISSION OF THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES, Having regard to the Treaty establishing the European Community,

Having regard to Council Directive 90/427/EEC of 26 June 1990 on the zootechnical and genealogical conditions governing intra-Community trade in equidae (1), and in particular Article 4 (2) (b) thereof, Whereas under Article 4 (2) (b) of Directive 90/427/EEC the harmonized criteria governing the entry of equidae in stud-books should be established; Whereas it is therefore necessary to lay down the criteria for the entry of equidae in stud-books for breeding purposes; Whereas precise conditions relating to lineage and identification must be met prior to entry in the stud-book; Whereas allowance should be made for the division of the stud-book into different sections and classes so that certain types of animals will not be excluded; Whereas the measures provided for in this Decision are in accordance with the opinion of the Standing Committee on Zootechnics, HAS ADOPTED THIS DECISION:

Article 1.
1.To qualify for entry in the main section of the studbook of its breed registered equidae must:

- be descended from parents entered in the main section of a stud-book of that same breed and have a pedigree established in accordance with the rules of that stud-book,
- be identified as foal at foot according to the rules of that stud-book, which at least should require the covering certificate.
2. In derogation from the first indent of paragraph 1, an animal can be entered in the main section to take part in a cross breeding programme approved by the organization or association according to the rules of that stud-book. The cross breeding programme should mention the breeds which are allowed to take part.
Article 2.
1.The main section of a stud-book may be divided in conformity with No 3 (b), fifth indent, of the Annex of Commission Decision 92/353/EEC (2) laying down the criteria for the approval or recognition of organizations and associations which maintain or establish stud-books for registered equidae into several classes according to the animals' merits. Only equidae meeting the criteria laid down in Article 1 may be entered in one of those classes.
2. Where a stud-book contains several classes in the main section, an animal from another stud-book shall be entered in the class of the stud-book whose criteria it meets.
Article 3.
1. An organization or association keeping a stud-book may decide that an animal, which does not meet the criteria laid down in Article 1, may be entered in a supplementary section of that stud-book. The animal must meet the following requirements:
- be identified in accordance with the stud-book rules,
- - be judged to conform to the breed standard,
- have a minimum performance as laid down in the stud-book rules.
2. The organization or association should fix the rules allowing progeny of such animals to enter the main section.
Article 4. This Decision is addressed to the Member States. Done at Brussels, 10 January 1996. For the Commission. Franz FISCHLER. Member of the Commission. (1) OJ No L 224, 18. 8. 1990, p. 55. (2) OJ No L 192, 11. 7. 1992, p. 63. “
I have been informed by a person in Australasia that breeders who enter their horses into the CBHSA Stud Book now instead of in the CBHS Stud Book (including ones that wouldn’t be entitled now to have their horse admitted into the CBHS Stud Book because they don’t meet its eligibility rules and regulations because for example they are by unlicensed stallions etc) that they would be able to mount a successful legal challenge against the CBHS if it refused to admit those horses into it’s Stud Book at some future date. That is not correct. If an Australasian Cleveland Bay breeder mounted such a challenge against the CBHS then it would be assessed against whether or not the CBHS had complied with the EEC rules and regulations that I have outlined above and not under the provisions of any other ones that might apply in another legal jurisdiction. The CBHS Stud Book entry rules conform to the prevailing EEC and Defra requirements. The Society has been very careful about what terms and conditions it sets in this regard.
There have been cases over the years of people approaching the Society to allow them to have their horses that are claimed to be Cleveland Bays (in some times many generations down the line when there is no verifiable record of their breeding) entered into its Stud Book as pure or part bred Cleveland Bay horses. Problems like this one could be so easily avoided by breeders registering their horses with the CBHS in its Stud Book.
To the best of my knowledge the CBHSA has no plans to be formally linked with the CBHS and wants to remain totally independent from it which is it’s right so comments about daughter stud book arrangements etc are totally irrelevant.
 
Talkingshell.

Can you explain to me what the purpose of your question is?

I understand that we were discussing a point of principle which is whether or not Cleveland Bay horse breeders should register their pure Cleveland Bay horses with the CBHS here in the UK which is the acknowleged Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay breed on a global basis so that their pedigrees can be verified as pure Cleveland bay horses in accordance with its rules and regulations. Is that not what is happening?

Perhaps I could put two simple question back to you which are why are Cleveland Bay horse breeders in Australasia so reluctant to register theirpure Cleveland Bay horses with the CBHS and Why does the CBHSA have to have its own Stud Book / Register if as you say it is working to support the CBHS?
 
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Dear JP, sorry it has taken me so long between posts horses and christmas have taken priority, i have taken a bit of time to look more closely at some of the treads and would like to discuss some of these with you

The point that bothers me the most is that you keep saying people are running the CB down and i think i am correct in saying you have actually accused me of this when you said if they are so bad why did i ever buy one, to put the record straight i have never had a bad word to say about the CB horse they are wonderful,loyal and brave horses that do not get the recognition they deserve. I am at a loss as to why you feel people are badmouthing the CB horse, just because they have a difference of opinion than yourself on how the breed should move forward. You clearly make your point that breeding is important to you and of course it is very important to the breed as a whole. I am going over old ground here when i say that geldings do have a job to do in advertising how fantastic this breed really is so i naturally have a different priority in trying to help the breed than you so please dont disrespect the efforts made by myself and others who do attend the cleveland bay classes as this has a cost attached which as i see it is my donation to the breed.
which leads quite nicely to another point in tread #89 you mention the marketing strategy
"to recognise performance excellence in pure/part bred CB and provide a mechanism of support" this does point to the fact that most of the people who have taken part in this debate already seem to realise advertising the breed is a priority for the cleveland bay horse society, you are in an envyable position when you said that you did not have to sell your foals, that maybe good for you, but others do have to sell theirs.
THEY MAY THINK THAT ADVERTISING HELPS

About your mares and your breeding program, the reason myself and others have asked about this in previous treads ie: how many mares/how many foals have you bred etc is to discover if you are practicing what you preach,so i ask again are your mares all in foal so that you are setting a good example and whether they are or not i would hope to see them in the showring next year with or without a foal at foot as we havent seen them this year

finally in this tread the foreign breed societies, rome was not built in a day and you will not help by being rude to them this will not ecourage them to work more closely with us
here i go again repeating myself,they are cooperating with the CBHS perhaps not as closely as you would like but its a start. They are following the breed standards and one of the 2 societies mentioned is nearly as old as ours if they havent drifted off by now they probably wont. if we are truly interested in helping this breed survive we must set aside the pettiness at least until the numbers increase, they seem happy to work together and who knows one day perhaps they can be seen as foreign branches of our society but to say they are rivals is very hostile and certainly not what the cleveland bay needs right now
if their horses have to correct ancestory and quality they should not be discarded we cant afford to be this wasteful
In #91 you mention breeders and society members work collectively together where ever they are located globally it obviously has to include overseas breeders as well as uk based ones.
In #89 "to develop effective partnerships with other relevent organisations in support to the strategies CBHS develop best practice from other societies that support the strategy
This does seem to be whats happening

On a final note the cleveland bay is an artificial breed just like the TB made by man [ not native] and its history seems to show me that the breeders of yesteryear seemed to be more open to outside blood from time to time ie the yorkshire coach horse. Of course i dont tend to go into it as deep as you
Breeders of yesteryear invented the cleveland bay to do a job times have changed and the jobs they once did dont exsist we are lucky they are more versatile than other breeds that have already gone
What jobs are your foals being bred to do JP
 
Harveysmom,

You say “The point that bothers me the most is that you keep saying people are running the CB down”

You said on the 09/11/12 at 06:30PM to agree with comments made by magnificsporthorses when she stated that “Former CB horse inspectors were among those supporting the proposed changes, seeking to restore the quality of the breed that they felt may be declining due to the severely restricted gene pool.” to say “all those in favour of the change are worried about is the existing gene pool being to limited which may lead to defects within the breed lets stop in before it starts"... "if we sit on our hands the cleveland bay will die out and we wont have to worry about introducing outside blood also my belief is that the grading register should be scrapped there are not enough pure cleveland bays to allow us to be that fussy on a final note if you look at old photos of cleveland bays they have already changed so all this being careful hasnt made a jot of difference.“

You have referred to the supposed lack of quality and defects within the breed. Some people are intent on keeping the grade register debate going in the hope that the proposed changed will be introduced. Throughout the debate wild and un substantiated claims were made by the supporters of the grade register proposals in an attempt to justify introducing them that the breed suffered from a number of inherited deleterious conditions and that it has lost or lacks quality. That is running the breed down in my books particularly when the claims that were made couldn’t be backed up with hard evidence.

You have asked me about breeding. What is important to me is not breeding for the sake of breeding but rather breeding to retain the Pure Cleveland Bay horse as a distinct native British Breed of horse that is unique. There are few pure Cleveland Bay horses in the world at present. If their numbers are not increased soon then the breed will be lost forever. I don’t want to just breed more horses from any background and label them as pure Cleveland Bay horses as some appear intent upon doing. If people want to breed part bred or sports horses based upon Cleveland Bay breeding they can do that now alongside people such as myself who want to retain the pure Cleveland Bay horse.

Other breed societies have eligibility rules for their pure Stud Books that are tighter than the existing CBHS Stud Book ones. They value their pure horses for what they are and work to maintain them as well as promoting their part bred horses as separate animals of value. What is wrong with doing that?

You say “.. that geldings do have a job to do in advertising how fantastic this breed really is so i naturally have a different priority in trying to help the breed than you so please dont disrespect the efforts made by myself and others who do attend the cleveland bay classes as this has a cost attached which as i see it is my donation to the breed.” Can you point out to me where I have disrespected you efforts? I have said on numerous occasions that part bred horses, including geldings play a very valuable role in helping to promote the breed. The success of part bred horses out competing promotes both them and the need to retain pure Cleveland Bay horses so that more quality part bred performance horses can be bred in the future.

I have not said that the Cleveland Bay breed should not be advertised. I don’t understand the point that you make in capital letters “ THEY MAY THINK THAT ADVERTISING HELPS”

You say:- “About your mares and your breeding program, the reason myself and others have asked about this in previous treads ie: how many mares/how many foals have you bred etc is to discover if you are practicing what you preach,so i ask again are your mares all in foal so that you are setting a good example and whether they are or not i would hope to see them in the showring next year with or without a foal at foot as we havent seen them this year”. You are the only person who has asked me about what I am doing with my mares. I don’t know whom the other people are that you refer to? I have already said in earlier posts that I am using them to breed pure Cleveland bay foals. To satisfy your curiosity all of them of breeding age are in foal for next year. Two foals are already booked. I consider that breeding from my mares at present is a higher priority for the breed’s future well being than either showing them or competing them. You obviously don’t know me well otherwise you would be aware that I was involved in a serious car crash four years ago that has resulted in me having to have a series of major spinal fusion operations and related ongoing treatments so you might be forgiven for your comments about me not showing my horses.I will not be doing so in the coming year.

You have not answered my question which was why does the CBHSA needs to have a stud book if as you say it is working in support of the CBHS and following the same rules as it does?The CBHSNA does not have its own Stud Book so why does the CBHSA?

There are fewer pure Cleveland Bay horses in the world today than there are giant pandas. The population needs to be “ managed” as far as a domestic breed of horse that is owned by individuals can be as one population under the same set of Stud Book rules and conditions if the maximum amount of the existing genetic diversity is going to be retained and its effective population size increased over successive generations of breeding. If other stud books are formed that are separate to the existing CBHS internationally recognized Cleveland Bay breed Stud Book then over time, just as is happening now in Australasia some Cleveland Bay horses will be entered into those and not into the CBHS Stud Book. Different eligibility rules will be developed that will make horses ineligible to be entered into the CBHS Stud Book. Why risk that situation happening when breeders can and should enter their pure Cleveland Bay horses in the CBHS Stud Book if they want to work together to preserve the breed on a global basis?

It will be interesting to see how the CBHSA amend their eligibility/ entry rules. I doubt very much that they will conform to the same requirements that the CBHS has in place in future years. If I am wrong and the entry rules are going to be exactly the same as in the CBHS Stud Book then why is there a need for a CBHSA Stud Book at all?

You assert that the CBHSNA and the CBHSA: -

“ are following the breed standards and one of the 2 societies mentioned is nearly as old as ours if they havent drifted off by now they probably wont.”

The CBHS North America was founded shortly after the CBHS was but of more importance than that is that despite large number of Cleveland Bays being exported to North America since the society was established that most of the genetic diversity and potential contribution to the pure breed has been lost because those horses are no longer represented in today’s pure Cleveland Bay population. The pure Cleveland Bay horses that make up the population of today’s North American population are largely comprised of descendent of horses exported in recent times. If the descendents of the initial horses that were exported to North America had been registered with the CBHS as a few of the breeders did then their genetic contribution to today’s population would not have been lost to the breed now. I want to avoid a repetition of that from happening again by ensuring that as many pure Cleveland Bays are registered with the CBHS now.

The two overseas societies have no plans to become affiliated with the CBHS unless you know different? The CBHS has overseas members in both North America and in Australasia who register their horses with the CBHS. That is what I would like to see all pure Cleveland Bay horse breeders doing. What is wrong with that so that the breed can be maintained as one global population under the same set of Stud Book eligibility rules and entry conditions?

The Cleveland Bay horse has a long history and recorded pedigree in the CBHS Stud Book. It is recognized as a distinct native British breed of horse. It has not had a lot of outside genetics introduced into it as you claim as was evidenced in for example Dr Andrew Dell’s recently published research. If you study the history of the breed you will see that contrary to what you say it is not the case that “ its history seems to show me that the breeders of yesteryear seemed to be more open to outside blood from time to time ie the yorkshire coach horse.”

The two organizations went their separate ways because of the desire of the Yorkshire Coach Horse Society to use thoroughbred breeding that the Cleveland Bay Horse Society Council would not allow to be admitted into it’s Stud Book. The Yorkshire Coach horse has had very little impact on the CBHS Stud Book and breed if you study the number of horses that were admitted into it that have bred on and left descendents in today’s pure Cleveland Bay horse population.

You ask me “ What jobs are your foals being bred to do JP” They are being bred at present primarily in order to maintain the breed as a distinct native pure British breed of horse that is versatile and can meet many of the needs of today’s wider equine community. They are capable of being good quality general purpose riding and driving horses. I am not planning on breeding top class sports or performance horse from them because I don’t think that, other than the exceptional animal that the pure Cleveland Bay horse fulfills that role but they can and have been used to breed such top class performance horses when crossed with thoroughbred and other types.
 
The proposed changes to the Grading Register have torn about the CBHS. I am just reading about conflict within the NPS. NEWS item on H&H.

There has been a lot of conflict in WCPS.

Are our breed societies doing the best for British Breeding?
 
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