Sults
Well-Known Member
From what i've read about reserpine, i don't quite understand why you would want to give it intentionally to a horse going round Burghley?
Clifton Promise tests + for banned substance post Burghley
- Thread starter Que Sera
- Start date
Twiglet
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't expect the two horses to be kept on the same yard, as Jock and Kevin are based in different counties (albeit the horses could obviously have travelled for training but would be terribly unlucky if contamination happened with a visiting horse as well).
I think it has to be made public because the suspensions are effective immediately and need to be announced - although I stand to be corrected on that.
Have to say, the whole bleeding on the course - two different horses - did seem odd. I know one was a bleed and one was a cut but still - how often are horses actually stopped for blood on course (I have no idea but I can't recall it happening often??), and to have two stopped on course, both with the same rider, one of whom is unsound the next day?
Not casting any aspersions on Jock whatsoever as I think he's a truly phenomenal rider and seemingly a lovely guy, and I really hope that there's a negative outcome on the B test that gets rid of any doubt. I just found the Burghley situation very unusual at the time.
I think it has to be made public because the suspensions are effective immediately and need to be announced - although I stand to be corrected on that.
Have to say, the whole bleeding on the course - two different horses - did seem odd. I know one was a bleed and one was a cut but still - how often are horses actually stopped for blood on course (I have no idea but I can't recall it happening often??), and to have two stopped on course, both with the same rider, one of whom is unsound the next day?
Not casting any aspersions on Jock whatsoever as I think he's a truly phenomenal rider and seemingly a lovely guy, and I really hope that there's a negative outcome on the B test that gets rid of any doubt. I just found the Burghley situation very unusual at the time.
Que Sera
Member
The potential contamination as described in this thread isn't due to the presence of reserpine in a supplement/med; it's to do with the way certain herbs present in some feed/supplements may react during the test to interfere and produce a false positive. That said, I understand everything is being double checked but the team don't believe it's been administered in anything, and it's hard to imagine such a monumental error being made at that level anyway
Polos Mum
Well-Known Member
If the test is that unreliable I'm suprised it's allowed to be the basis for suspension or if it's just a specific combination of herbs that give false positive again I'm suprised a pro yard would risk the use of such herbs given they know they will be tested.
I assume he was clear after Badminton so it should be pretty quick to see what has changed diet wise in the interveining months.
A sad day for the sport in any event, it'll leave a bad taste in people mouths even if it's proven to be an error. People some how never quite remember the retractions/ apologies as much as they remember the accusation in the first place.
JFTDWS
Well-Known Member
Very few tests of this nature are flawless. As a scientist, I mean, I have no specialist knowledge of drugs testing in eq, but a reasonable knowledge of diagnostics etc.
dianchi
Well-Known Member
Im not sure how many samples are tested after comps or if its a case of the winner plus random sample are tested?
In fact.........
http://www.fei.org/fei/horse-health-and-welfare/doping-controlled-medication/neg-results
And yes was negative at badminton
In fact.........
http://www.fei.org/fei/horse-health-and-welfare/doping-controlled-medication/neg-results
And yes was negative at badminton
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Que Sera
Member
But IIRC, reserpine use isn't all that common these days anyway and I think it's oversimplifying the potential situation to say 'Everyone involved should know that x + y herbs may = z specific result in a completely unrelated test.' Lay people can't be expected to be aware of every single scientific issue in tests like that. I don't think the test itself is supposedly that unreliable; just that there are other factors that have the potential to throw false results, as in so many tests, as JFTD says.
But whatever's happened, yes, it's sad for all involved and a big shock to many.
Polos Mum
Well-Known Member
I probably am being over simplistic but it's not that common a test result (at least you don't see it in the national press that often !) so it can't be that common a contamination/ false positive issue, and if it was the test should be used with care/ double checked before suspensions (and the associated publicity) are enforced.
If I were him I'd be very angry if it was my livelihood in question over a test known to throw false positives
JFTDWS
Well-Known Member
Tests like this will have a sensitivity value (the likelihood of detecting positive result) and a specificity value (the likelihood of not having a false positive). I cannot think of a single diagnostic test which has a 100% value for each of these. All tests are capable of throwing false positives, and there are always confounding factors. These factors might not be very common, but they still exist. If it is a false positive, I also think he'd be justified in feeling pretty angry at being suspended and at the shadow it casts over the whole affair. It doesn't, however, mean that the science behind the testing can somehow miraculously become watertight!
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I so hope the B test is ok
I just hope it's not something like the above it would just be terrible for the sport.
Polos Mum
Well-Known Member
i do understand, I guess in human medicine you have a test result and a margin of error so you can (as you need to) take both into consideration. For example a test I had for premature labour, they told me had a 20%+ false positive rate so when I got the results I didn't panic!! It's still a useful test but only in context of other tests.
If a dope test has a known large margin of error then it might make sense to do the B test before acting on the results - that's all I'm trying to say (obviously badly!)
JFTDWS
Well-Known Member
Absolutely. It's also worth keeping in mind that even a very low false positive rate will occasionally give some unlucky sod an erroneous result. Even if it's really, really rare, until we see the B test result, it could conceivably be the case here. Like the lottery for the really unlucky!
Equibrit
Well-Known Member
hcm88
Well-Known Member
Doubt the test is so unreliable that two false positives will suddenly appear from the same event though...? Particularly where the horses are linked..
Anyway I don't want to get into assuming and blaming until the B test comes back as its awfully unfair if there has been some huge error. I hope for Jock's (and the sport's) sake that everything comes back hunky dory, surely must be an explanation for it even if we can't guess it here.
Anyway I don't want to get into assuming and blaming until the B test comes back as its awfully unfair if there has been some huge error. I hope for Jock's (and the sport's) sake that everything comes back hunky dory, surely must be an explanation for it even if we can't guess it here.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
woodlandswow
Well-Known Member
Would it be controversial to say that I am not surprised at all by this..
having landed as a groom to a top eventer this year, the things you hear about certain riders are unspeakable to the keen eventing follower but everyday life to the insiders.
Which other pro is checking their horse at 11pm on the Saturday night.. I thought that was the grooms job, leader or not..
having landed as a groom to a top eventer this year, the things you hear about certain riders are unspeakable to the keen eventing follower but everyday life to the insiders.
Which other pro is checking their horse at 11pm on the Saturday night.. I thought that was the grooms job, leader or not..
Puppy
Well-Known Member
http://www.radiolivesport.co.nz/And...-Stead/tabid/454/articleID/15955/Default.aspx
Interview with Andrew Nicholson and Frances Stead.
Interview with Andrew Nicholson and Frances Stead.
Auslander
Well-Known Member
Ignoring the idle gossip element of this post...
I have worked for several team riders, in the UK, and on the continent - and all of them were very hands on when it came to monitoring their horses well being at international 3 day events.
Bestdogdash
Well-Known Member
Agree ^^^^^ this ..... If it is positive why the gnashing of teeth and wailing ? It is better to get a cheat exposed and out the sport.
TGM
Well-Known Member
This is interesting:
http://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/museum-and-garden/garden/world-medicine-beds/vinca-major
Periwinkle (Vinca major) which is native to Europe and grows freely in my hedges at home, is said to contain reserpine.
http://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/museum-and-garden/garden/world-medicine-beds/vinca-major
Periwinkle (Vinca major) which is native to Europe and grows freely in my hedges at home, is said to contain reserpine.
OliveBuffy1129
Well-Known Member
Difficult one I agree that the point of both of Jocks horses were stopped for bleeding? My other thought was it could of been given to both of Jocks horses and Kevins but with Clifton Lush being withdrawn they wouldn't of drug tested him would be interesting to see if they had drug tested Lush whether he came back positive. Just a thought 
do hope that the accusations are false as Jock seemed such a friendly person but then again anyone can be nice but cheat I suppose....
do hope that the accusations are false as Jock seemed such a friendly person but then again anyone can be nice but cheat I suppose....angelish
Well-Known Member
update from jocks team
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/9288863/Jock-Paget-vows-to-clear-his-name
i really do hope the B test comes back neg for there sake as well as the sport
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/9288863/Jock-Paget-vows-to-clear-his-name
i really do hope the B test comes back neg for there sake as well as the sport
kerilli
Well-Known Member
This. I would not trust ANYONE to check my horse's legs at late night feedtime. Lots of riders are very hands-on.
Thistle
Well-Known Member
The rider is responsible for the horse, whyever would they not do late night checks.
oldvic
Well-Known Member
This is scurrilous at best. Plenty of riders will check their own horses. The rules are that anyone going into the stables late are escorted to their stable by a steward and then back out again so actions would be seen. Remember that Jock's other horse was carrying an injury so it is even more likely that someone of his caring nature would check his boys were comfortable for the night. The two blood incidents are totally unrelated. Promise bit his tongue and had blood round his lips - not altogether surprising as he had his tongue out of the side of his mouth. Lush banged his nose on the elephant trap (clearly visible on the video) which caused a nosebleed. I wonder, would you be saying the same if it was a top British rider that you had seen in the stables late in the evening? Anyone doubting Jock's character should listen to Andrew Nicholson's interview that is linked earlier in this thread. His thoughts on Jock are genuine and he is the one to gain most from a Burghley disqualification.
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popsdosh
Well-Known Member
What I find slightly disturbing is that two horses closely linked tested positive to a banned substance.This drug has only recently had a reliable test devised for it.I am not sure where the term a few seem to be taking faith in false positive comes from it is only that a positive can come from a plant source ,however this is not a false positive but the horse is still influenced by it so will fail. It is the same situation as a horse that has consumed willow leaves is in it may not be intentional but will still be classed as positive and disqualified (unless you come from Dubai that is).
This drug has been used in racing in USA in states where you are not allowed to use Lasix to control bleeders like I say it is only recently they have been able to test for it.
It is sad that Jock may lose his title if a genuine mistake has been made however if from a feed supplement it shows a lack of care im afraid.All the top riders are aware of what they should avoid otherwise there would be many more failures!
This drug has been used in racing in USA in states where you are not allowed to use Lasix to control bleeders like I say it is only recently they have been able to test for it.
It is sad that Jock may lose his title if a genuine mistake has been made however if from a feed supplement it shows a lack of care im afraid.All the top riders are aware of what they should avoid otherwise there would be many more failures!
JFTDWS
Well-Known Member
Popdosh, a positive result for an NSAID from a horse that has eaten willow is not a false positive - it is a positive as the willow contains salicylic acid, an NSAID. A false positive is just that - an erroneous positive due to a confounding factor which is not the compound being tested for. It can happen on account of similarly shaped molecules in the blood (which may or may not be banned) or a lab issue. It may not be a common occurence, but even if there's a 1 in a 1000 error rate for the test, some unlucky sod has to be that 1!
I'm currently having a look for the nature of the testing they're doing. I know there's an ELISA for reserpine, and I assume that's confirmed by MS/ LC-MS. ELISAs are very sensitive, but often have quite low specificities so I can't imagine the FEI are relying on that alone. The exact nature of the testing may indicate whether it's plausible that it's a genuine false positive.
I'm currently having a look for the nature of the testing they're doing. I know there's an ELISA for reserpine, and I assume that's confirmed by MS/ LC-MS. ELISAs are very sensitive, but often have quite low specificities so I can't imagine the FEI are relying on that alone. The exact nature of the testing may indicate whether it's plausible that it's a genuine false positive.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
I never said a positive for salicylic acid caused by willow would be a false positive just that if from a plant source it would still be a possitive. The FEI have said it has took a while to get a test that has been accurate that does not have false positives so hopefully that is not an issue. Also the fact that two horses at one event under related management test positive will most likely blow the false positive theory out of the water,because if the test had that failure rate they would not be using it!!
JFTDWS
Well-Known Member
1. There is no test in the world which is 100% sensitive and 100% specific.
2. The related management actually may strengthen the false positive theory, it may be far less likely to have two entirely unrelated horses test false postive by chance, depending on the nature of the false positive result.
I'm not talking about eventing specific stuff here. I'm talking about the science behind the testing because that's what I know about. I'm in no position to judge whether JP has done anything wrong. I do think that people should wait until the B test is performed and the investigations are complete before speculating about any wrongdoing on his part. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.
2. The related management actually may strengthen the false positive theory, it may be far less likely to have two entirely unrelated horses test false postive by chance, depending on the nature of the false positive result.
I'm not talking about eventing specific stuff here. I'm talking about the science behind the testing because that's what I know about. I'm in no position to judge whether JP has done anything wrong. I do think that people should wait until the B test is performed and the investigations are complete before speculating about any wrongdoing on his part. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
The A sample will have been re checked several times before this announcement so margin for error is very small and unlikely to reoccur over several checks. I am not condemning the guy in any way as I hope the B comes back clear , just trying to show that this is very unlikely to occur.