Clifton Promise tests + for banned substance post Burghley

[Lolo]

I don't think it would end a career, really. People do far worse and come back without a problem- look at Matthew Wright, who was actually arrested for his actions and yet was entered for Burghley this year didn't seem to drop many owners. Ultimately, he's a great jockey and has gotten results.

 

[FlaxenPony05]

Really interesting thread about this on Chronicle of the Horse Forums if anyone is interested.

 

[mle22]

It could also have a direct impact on his career - a suspension (which if proven could be up to 2years) has the potential to end his career, which would be a great shame.

It didn't do Cian O'Connor a lot of harm in the longer term!

 

[TarrSteps]

I'm not saying it's fun times and frolicking puppies. Just that people keep talking about guilt and innocence and proving this or that.when, even IF - IF - the B sample is positive we may still never know what went down.

Those nice horsesb of Jane Clark's Ben Mahr has? They are with him because the previous rider had a horse test positive for cocaine. No explanation - and almost certainly accidental as it doesn't even work on horses apparently - but that is immaterial.

My point is that even if the test is positive, people in the know will not necessarily think the worst of Jock and Kevin

 

[popsdosh]

I don't think it would end a career, really. People do far worse and come back without a problem- look at Matthew Wright, who was actually arrested for his actions and yet was entered for Burghley this year didn't seem to drop many owners. Ultimately, he's a great jockey and has gotten results.

Matthew was not banned for two years ,what owner will wait two years to see their horses run again and how does he survive in horses in the mean time. It will not be easy for him. I am afraid in the eyes of the FEI you are guilty as soon as the A sample comes back positive,the B sample is there as a check(that the rider can choose to check if they wish) and as far as I am aware you can choose which is which at sampling as the sample is simply split at collection.

 

[JFTDWS]

Just that people keep talking about guilt and innocence and proving this or that.when, even IF - IF - the B sample is positive we may still never know what went down.

On a scientific level though, there must be an explanation and the pursuit of that would drive me crazy, were I in his shoes. It's bugging me that an explanation will probably never be demonstrated, and realistically, it's nothing to do with me! I don't like unanswered questions...

It also bothers me when people present findings like this as incontrivertable fact - it's not that uncommon for tests to be unrepeatable (though reasonably unusual in this context). Just because the FEI respond to the results instantly doesn't mean that the secondary test or any further investigation is a formality - until the matter is resolved it's pretty rubbish to assume he was careless about the management of the horse, was intentionally drugging it, or indeed anything else. If he's banned, he's banned and folk can believe what they like, but it seems only fair to give him a chance to come up with some evidence to the contrary, if it can be brought into existence. (does that even make sense?)

But as you say, it's not the end of the world (though it may well feel like it now to JP).

 

[TarrSteps]

In the case of a positive test, there is a hearing and the athlete has the opportunity to defend or explain. Who was the showjumper who had problems with contaminated feed? That dragged on for ages until they finally figured out what happened.

The idea that an athlete with a positive test is suspended while the results are checked is not just FEI protocol, it's common to most sports, at least amateur ones. There is no legal right to play a sport. And, come to think of it, the same thing can happen in workplace situations. Jock and Kevin are 'on leave' until the situation is resolved.

The only reason I bring this up is that there seems to be the feeling that the FEI is being terribly unfair or implying guilt by their actions. But this is not the case. Lots of people get accused of things and are then exonerated. But you also have to separate out the horse from the rider. If the horse is positive, it loses the result. But, even if that happens, the only thing the rider is 'guilty' of is not taking due care.

 

[oldvic]

Even if the outcome goes against Jock, I very much doubt he will starve. He does after all have a trade other than horses and he can always ride in his spare time. He would be a very useful schooling jockey and he could bring on some young horses. In the grand scheme of things, up to 2 years out is not really a huge deal. He is 29 years old, a mere child in eventing terms where the world number one is over 50!! He may not think it at the moment but there have been harder things to overcome.

 

[Thistle]

If a rider is banned, is that across all disiplines or could an eventer go dressage or SJ?

 

[AmyMay]

Really interesting thread about this on Chronicle of the Horse Forums if anyone is interested.

Do you have a link?

 

[cptrayes]

If the horse is positive, it loses the result. But, even if that happens, the only thing the rider is 'guilty' of is not taking due care.

I'm not saying this rider is, but it's possible for the rider to be guilty of deliberate use of a drug to enhance the performance of the horse, not just an accident in the management of the horse.

 

[TarrSteps]

I'm not saying this rider is, but it's possible for the rider to be guilty of deliberate use of a drug to enhance the performance of the horse, not just an accident in the management of the horse.

Of course it is. And no doubt it has happened. I'm just saying that, as per the rules of sport, the responsibility for a positive test rests with the rider, regardless of why the test is positive. If the athlete can show how the test came to be positive through a mistake or something outside of their control, such as improperly labeled feed, then that will be looked on favourably. If not, too bad. Some people seem to be expecting the FEI to launch a CSI-style investigation to get 'answers' and I'm saying don't hold your breath, regardless of what happens with the second sample.

And, to be clear, if worst comes to worst he will be suspended not banned. As ov says, people do recover from these things. Look at Eric Lamaze! Heck, even Barney Ward is still working, even if he can't go to the horse shows.

Of course it's a horrible situation, which ever way it goes. But hyperbole never helps

 

[JFTDWS]

Some people seem to be expecting the FEI to launch a CSI-style investigation to get 'answers' and I'm saying don't hold your breath, regardless of what happens with the second sample.

I never said that. I don't expect the FEI to investigate beyond confirming the B sample and listening to any evidence JP can find before they come to their decision. I've made a number of comments about investigation, so I assume that's partly aimed at me - but you misunderstand me - I don't think the onus is on the FEI to investigate. But if I were JP, and knew the horse hadn't been given anything banned, I'd want to have that investigation done myself, though it wouldn't be financially feasible or viable in the timescale he will have.

The comments speculating about the possible causes are interesting (well they are to me, but as I say, I come at this as a scientist and categorically not as an eventer or anyone with any particular affiliation to the sport beyond spectating). I do want answers because I want to know how "good" the test is (and not just "the FEI use it so it must be OK"), and I'm interested to know potential confounding factors and environmental sources of the drug itself (and similarly shaped molecules which could affect the result). I don't expect that a satisfactory investigation will be done, or that it will affect the long term outcome, I'm just curious.

 

[TarrSteps]

It wasn't actually aimed at you, JFTD. I just think there is too much confusion between 'rule' and 'law' and over what protection of a level playing field actually means in application. The real benefit in situations like this is to make the rest of us examine our own attitudes and practices.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

[JFTDWS]

In which case, my humble apologies for my narcissistic outburst

 

[TarrSteps]

It's not all about you. Quite often it's about me!

 

[JFTDWS]

I am just not prepared to accept that, TS! *flounce*.

 

[Honey08]

Interesting update on Clifton Eventer's facebook page. Too long to really summarise and don't know how to do a link, but they have hired a top scientist to investigate possible ways it could have got into the system. There are also (how I read it) little shots at the FEI on the guilty until proven innocent aspect and also the security at top events and access to the horses.

 

[JFTDWS]

This one? I'm guessing, since it's been shared through multiple public pages on fb, it's not too much of a breach of internet etiquette to quote it here...

Update from Frances Stead, Clifton Eventers

Sunday, 20 October 2013

Subsequent to the indefinite suspension of Jock Paget and Kevin McNab following the positive 'A' sample results of their two Clifton horses tested at the Land Rover Burghley Horse Trials, we plan to bring you weekly updates on how we are all working to clear their names. This is the first of those updates.

Just to recap, less than a week ago we received notification from the FEI of a positive 'A' sample result for the banned substance Reserpine, a sedative, for both Clifton Promise and Clifton Pinot, who were competing at the Land Rover Burghley Horse Trials.

This was understandably an enormous shock to ourselves and both riders (Jock Paget of New Zealand for Clifton Promise who won Burghley and Kevin McNab of Australia who finished 14th). We immediately stated categorically that none of the relevant parties involved with these horses, including ourselves and both riders, had taken any actions with the intent of administering any prohibited substances. This position and statement will not alter at all in the future, as it is a fact that time cannot change.

In the days that followed the original announcement many people have contacted us and the riders to express their support at this difficult time. I would like to express my sincere thanks to them all. The fact there is such a groundswell of goodwill towards us is very much appreciated.

Obviously after the shock and disbelief of the initial news, we knew we had a big task on our hands to prove both riders' innocence, and since then the team has been working tirelessly on that objective.

The start point of the FEI's policy is the opposite to normal law process – effectively both riders (as the 'person responsible' for each horse) are 'guilty until proven innocent', rather than the usual 'innocent until proven guilty'. Therefore, if it is confirmed there was Reserpine in the blood of these two horses, the onus is on them to prove how it got there. With this as the start point, we have already commenced many avenues of investigation:

1) We have asked the FEI for the level of Reserpine in the horses' 'A' sample blood. This was not in the information from them advising that the substance had been found. Whilst we accept that this is a banned substance under FEI rules at any amount, knowing the relative concentration is particularly important to help us understand how and when it might have entered their systems.

As a comparison, think about 'drink driving'. With highly sophisticated diagnostic analysis, such as is used by the FEI for its testing, it is likely the presence of alcohol could be detected in anyone who had drunk a single glass of wine or a pint of beer more than a week earlier. This would show up as positive under a 'zero tolerance' evaluation of alcohol. However, the same result of 'presence of alcohol' would show up if the person had consumed two bottles of wine or eight pints of beer a few hours earlier. Knowing which of these two extremes the alcohol reading showed would certainly help in finding the full story of any drink driving incident. Reserpine is a 'zero tolerance' substance with the FEI, so any level found, however small, would lead to a positive finding.

2) We have employed an expert scientist to help analyse the various sources of possible contamination that we have identified. As those involved with high level equine athletes will know, they take a great deal more into their bodies than just grass! As a result, this is a very expansive and complex exercise, and even then it is probably impossible to cover every possible source, but we hope to cover as many as we can and as thoroughly as we can.

3) A week ago, none of us had actually heard of Reserpine, let alone knew anything about it. However, we are becoming increasingly knowledgeable by the day. To this end, we would like to thank all those of you that have sent us information about this substance. Reserpine is a very long acting sedative. It remains in the body for weeks if not months (scientifically it has a half-life of 11 days). It's in commonly-found grassland and hedgerows plants in the UK, and so it could be grazed naturally or get into hay. It is also apparently used in several human medications, allowing the possibility, for example, that a person using one of these could have contaminated the horses indirectly and unintentionally.

Furthermore, we have been told there are several other substances that are very similar to Reserpine in their scientific profile and these could apparently be mistaken in analysis for Reserpine. We are looking at how any possible incorrect identification could be clarified.

On top of the extensive investigative work we are undertaking, we are also well aware of the many comments that have arisen about the weakness of security systems at top Eventing competitions. It has always been a very friendly and trusting sport – one of the things that attracts owners like ourselves to it. Burghley is no different to the other top 4-stars (I have regularly attended all six of them): all you need is to be issued with the required coloured wristband. Anyone wearing one of these then has access to the whole stable area at any time of day or night, with (as far as I am aware) the only 'shut down time' being for a few hours the night after cross country. It is common for complete strangers to ask to talk and pat a horse that they may have no connection with, and not surprisingly, Clifton Promise in particular was very popular.

I would like to confirm that Clifton Eventers, Jock Paget and Kevin McNab are firm supporters of all policies that prevent the use of any substances that enhance the performance of any horse. We all want a clean sport and a level playing field for competition. It is the only fair way for the best combination to become the winners on the day.

I think everyone has already worked out that in this instance there was in actual fact no 'enhanced performance' by a horse being asked to jump round the Burghley cross country course – probably the toughest in the world – while sedated with Reserpine. Similarly, I cannot think of any rider wanting to come out to try and show jump clear the next day on a tired horse with the added factor of any sedative in the horse's system. However, Clifton Promise's blood sample was taken after the prize giving at the conclusion of the whole competition, and it is this test sample that allegedly contained Reserpine at that time. Logic says that this is the last thing the rider or anyone associated with the horse would want. However, it would appear that logic does not come into the evaluation of this matter.

This is a tough time for all involved with these two Clifton horses, and in particular for Jock and Kevin. These are two of the most honest, hard-working and ethical people anyone could have the pleasure of being involved with. We are all confident the truth will come out and we will find the solution to this mystery. If Reserpine is confirmed to have been in the blood of these two horses at Burghley we look forward very much to finding out how it got there, as we all know it was not a deliberate action by anyone associated with these lovely horses.

On a final positive note: whilst taking a break today from the incessant telephone calls and the planning of how we respond to the allegations, we took our dogs for a walk and found a huge number of four-leaf clovers. We hope that, combined with the our exhaustive and diligent investigations, these will bring us luck in solving this complex and perplexing puzzle.

Thanks again everyone for all your support, help and useful information. The team is very positive and strong, and it is very confident that we will get to the bottom of this and that everyone's name will be cleared.

 

[sportsmansB]

Yes I read that update too. They are doing the very expensive investigations themselves mentioned above.
I thought that the update was very well written and definitely got their points of view across- it was easy to see that Frances Stead has her roots as CEO of an international business, it came across extremely professional and if I was Jock I would be delighted that she was the one helping fight my corner!!

 

[Honey08]

Yes that was it.

 

[JFTDWS]

if I was Jock I would be delighted that she was the one helping fight my corner!!

Me too. I was impressed with the comprehensive and tidy nature of the update...

(I wouldn't have re-posted it on here otherwise...)