Clifton Promise tests + for banned substance post Burghley
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Honey08
Waffled a lot!
Very interesting thread with input from a wide variety of top event areas.
H&H said JP had asked for the second sample to be tested by a different lab etc.
I am gutted, I had him down for the grand slam, but it seems unlikely now. I also believe in him being innocent until proven otherwise.
H&H said JP had asked for the second sample to be tested by a different lab etc.
I am gutted, I had him down for the grand slam, but it seems unlikely now. I also believe in him being innocent until proven otherwise.
JFTDWS
Well-Known Member
I think the rules also state that he can choose to be present for the second test, or elect a witness for it. (Unless I dreamt that last night, it was on my mind!) Which is interesting. I wonder if he's taking them up on it - I can't imagine a frustrated, non-scientist rider breathing down their necks would be fun for the guys doing the testing!
LittleRooketRider
Well-Known Member
i'm really not sure what to make of this...other than if it comes back negative great BUT if it comes back positive people should not fish around for excuses, at that level he should know exactly what is happening with the horse he is riding full stop (i am not saying the horse was definately drugged just that this is how it should be if it is)
LillySparrow
Well-Known Member
What is ace?
AnnaWM
Member
Interview with Jock Paget...http://tvnz.co.nz/othersports-news/jock-paget-downplays-foul-play-suggestion-5651671/video
FlaxenPony05
Well-Known Member
He looks shattered, and to my mind, pretty genuine.
Thistle
Well-Known Member
Am guessing ACP with autocorrect?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
He's very uncomfortable for some reason - check out his blink rate.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
Acetylpromazine ace for short AKA acp
FlaxenPony05
Well-Known Member
But he's bound to be uncomfortable- the whole situation is pretty uncomfortable to be honest, even if it is just 'something in the grass' and completely unintentional. I don't think he seems like the type to get really emotional and defensive.
IMO, the drug seems like it could very easily be part of a supplement or something accidentally picked up by the horse (someone said earlier that it can be found in periwinkle in the hedgerows for eg) which in small amounts wouldn't affect the horse's overall performance but could still be picked up in bloods. Also, novicey question here, but why would anyone want to dope a horse up for XC? I can understand for selling or showing...but eventing?
LillySparrow
Well-Known Member
Thanks Thistle and Popsdosh. Is it a sedative?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
The drug is long acting.
The sedative would be given to get a better dressage score out of a hyper fit horse.
Perhaps the test is more sensitive now than it used to be and will pick it up days later when it did not used to.
Perhaps it's just an accident. I doubt we'll ever know.
The sedative would be given to get a better dressage score out of a hyper fit horse.
Perhaps the test is more sensitive now than it used to be and will pick it up days later when it did not used to.
Perhaps it's just an accident. I doubt we'll ever know.
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JFTDWS
Well-Known Member
I think I'd be uncomfortable too, given the context of this interview. Plus he looks wrecked and people do blink more when they're tired.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
I think he knows that the title has gone and it could end his career(it will be a 2yr ban) as they will be certain that B sample is very unlikely to test differently.I think I would feel uncomfortable in the situation if I knew what had happened or not.
I personally cannot think any rider would go into a major event like Burghley and deliberately drug a horse so this is food for the sabotage theory.Reserpine however is a drug that has a long and unpredictable withdrawal period!
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
It is a sedative that has other effects that may be advantageous in horses ie lowering blood pressure in horses that burst blood vessels.
Agree with CPT doubt we will ever know the truth of what happened!
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LillySparrow
Well-Known Member
Thanks Popsdosh. Recently moved to USA and heard in passing someone asking one of the grooms to give her horse a shot of 'ace'. Assumed at the time it was an anti-inflammatory or joint supplement like adaquin but then saw it mentioned on here as possibly being a sedative. Pretty sucky if she's actually sedating her horse just to ride it. But have heard of a yard over here that routinely sedates their lesson horses because they are scared of liability in the event that anyone falls off. Seems to be no regulation here on this.
smellsofhorse
Well-Known Member
I believe in innocent until proven guilty.
I like JP and hope this is all a big mistake, the B test comes back negative and this can all be forgotten.
But the Clifton horses both being positive is worrying.
Even if not from the same yard.
I hoping if the B test is also posisive then its an accidental contamination.
But even this shows a lack of thoroughness in a situation where everything in the horses lives, feed and carrer are closely monitored.
Fingers crossed for a good out come.
I like JP and hope this is all a big mistake, the B test comes back negative and this can all be forgotten.
But the Clifton horses both being positive is worrying.
Even if not from the same yard.
I hoping if the B test is also posisive then its an accidental contamination.
But even this shows a lack of thoroughness in a situation where everything in the horses lives, feed and carrer are closely monitored.
Fingers crossed for a good out come.
Alyth
Well-Known Member
I agree 'smellsofhorse'! Nowadays it is so easy to contaminate feeds, grooming substances, treats etc....I am sure it is non intentional and it is tragic for Jock as he has to prove his innocence rather than the FEI proving him guilty....the fact that the 2 horses were stabled next to each other makes me wonder if one groom borrowed something from the other, or something equally as innocent as giving both horses a treat....
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity, with the exception of two cases I can think of (one involving a positive test for antibiotics because a mill had mixed horse and cattle feed using the same paddle) how many positive drug tests for a specific substance can be traced back to compromised feed? Why are we not seeing positives every day of the week? This medication is not even licensed for use in the UK (although, as pointed out, questionably available for people). The periwinkle link is interesting but I can't see why any supplement would contain it.
I'm not bringing this up because of this situation but because there seems to be a feeling that a positive test could be waiting around every corner but this is not the case. The vast majority of positive tests are for medications or making agents.
That said, we've had numerous discussions on the board about importing meds from overseas because it's a cheaper, less controlled source. Surely a situation like this gets people thinking about the risks of that sort of situation?
I'm not bringing this up because of this situation but because there seems to be a feeling that a positive test could be waiting around every corner but this is not the case. The vast majority of positive tests are for medications or making agents.
That said, we've had numerous discussions on the board about importing meds from overseas because it's a cheaper, less controlled source. Surely a situation like this gets people thinking about the risks of that sort of situation?
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Thistle
Well-Known Member
Reserpine is long acting and dosed approx once a fortnight, it helps block adrenaline and is commonly used in Aus and NZ.
Just a thought, if the drug was used and withdrawn well before Burghley, but somehow remained (think a 6 week+ withdrawal) then surely the horse would have been competing BE with it in the system anyway which is just as bad.
I would suspect that many horses would test positive for this down through the levels in all disciplines.
TBH I had never heard of it but asked a more knowlegable friend about it.
Just a thought, if the drug was used and withdrawn well before Burghley, but somehow remained (think a 6 week+ withdrawal) then surely the horse would have been competing BE with it in the system anyway which is just as bad.
I would suspect that many horses would test positive for this down through the levels in all disciplines.
TBH I had never heard of it but asked a more knowlegable friend about it.
MiaBella
Well-Known Member
I think you tend to find even international pro yards aren't always as professional as others (some are very vigilent, mostly because they have been caught in the past or someone close to them has been).
As Reserpine has such a long and unpredictable withdrawal period it could have been given to the horses over a month before Burghley - possibly as part of a supplement to treat something else (and whilst not available in the UK, a quick google shows it was quite a popular drug in barrel racing in the US for example) and possibly provided by a well meaning friend who has a supplement that works really well blah blah. Or sometimes people quote withdrawal times without actually checking the facts themselves (so and so said it takes x days to clear the system)
Not all grooms are diligent at washing out feed bowls and using seperate tools for mixing when other horses are on supplements. (Not all yards advocate this practise)
Not all vets are as diligent as they should be either (particularly if the owner/rider/groom doesn't mention what the horse is off to do) and again possibly prescribed a treatment without realising the true withdrawal time.
Also Resperine is 'herbal' (Indian Snakeroot) and we all know herbal means its safe... (and not everyone double checks the ingredients on their feed products)
Its also possible its a false positive and actually it was periwinkle or similar that has caused the result.
Or it is sabotage
Or with all hope the B sample comes back as negative.
And as others have stated, its unlikely we will ever know the full truth of whats happened, just such a shame for the sport (as well as the riders, grooms, owners and family of those involved)
As Reserpine has such a long and unpredictable withdrawal period it could have been given to the horses over a month before Burghley - possibly as part of a supplement to treat something else (and whilst not available in the UK, a quick google shows it was quite a popular drug in barrel racing in the US for example) and possibly provided by a well meaning friend who has a supplement that works really well blah blah. Or sometimes people quote withdrawal times without actually checking the facts themselves (so and so said it takes x days to clear the system)
Not all grooms are diligent at washing out feed bowls and using seperate tools for mixing when other horses are on supplements. (Not all yards advocate this practise)
Not all vets are as diligent as they should be either (particularly if the owner/rider/groom doesn't mention what the horse is off to do) and again possibly prescribed a treatment without realising the true withdrawal time.
Also Resperine is 'herbal' (Indian Snakeroot) and we all know herbal means its safe... (and not everyone double checks the ingredients on their feed products)
Its also possible its a false positive and actually it was periwinkle or similar that has caused the result.
Or it is sabotage
Or with all hope the B sample comes back as negative.
And as others have stated, its unlikely we will ever know the full truth of whats happened, just such a shame for the sport (as well as the riders, grooms, owners and family of those involved)
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
I really cannot imagine any 4 star event horse getting turned out very much, and when they do I can't imagine them munching away on periwinkle.
I really hope it is a mistake and is all cleared up, he seems like such a nice young man and a lovely rider.
ETA I see he is turned out, but not many hedges in the view.
I really hope it is a mistake and is all cleared up, he seems like such a nice young man and a lovely rider.
ETA I see he is turned out, but not many hedges in the view.
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ArcticFox
Well-Known Member
why would a 4 star not be turned out! I'd expect them to be booted up and in individual turnout, but I wouldn't expect them to not be turned out at all - even the top dressage horses are all turned out!
I'm a believer in innocent until proven guilty
I'm a believer in innocent until proven guilty
armchair_rider
Well-Known Member
I've seen pictures of Mary King's horses roughed off for winter - group turnout, no boots and i'm not sure they were rugged. So it isn't impossible the horse ate something while turned out - thought that wouldn't explain the other positive test which was a horse in a different yard. Though, as somebody said above, posssibly both horses ate something at Burghley which caused the problem.
In terms of other drug incidents, the only ones I can recall are Coral Cove (traced to medication administered by GB team vet) and Red Mills in Ireland where a lot of racehorses ate a batch of contaminated feed.
In terms of other drug incidents, the only ones I can recall are Coral Cove (traced to medication administered by GB team vet) and Red Mills in Ireland where a lot of racehorses ate a batch of contaminated feed.
firm
Well-Known Member
I was taught years ago Periwinkle is poisonous to horses. I can't imagine pros allowing horses to graze it in hand or be turned out with it. I have periwinkle growing on a bank near where I sometimes hand graze the horses, they never go near it but I know they shouldn't.
star
Well-Known Member
Jock's team regularly post photos of Promise out in the field covered in mud after big events. Whether he could have eaten something from the field that cross reacted with the test is not for us to say. Pretty sure Jock is now testing every inch of Promise's paddock in that hope though.
squiz22
Well-Known Member
When will the results from the B test be provided? I am sorry if this has already been posted. I've just joined this 11 page thread!! 
I believe in innocent until proven guilty and shall withhold judgement until then. If its proven that the horse was illegally given this then its truly sad all round. He'd be CRAAAZZZYYYYY to do such a thing and risk everything.
I believe in innocent until proven guilty and shall withhold judgement until then. If its proven that the horse was illegally given this then its truly sad all round. He'd be CRAAAZZZYYYYY to do such a thing and risk everything.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Just to clarify, this is not a criminal or even civil matter, it's a contravention of the rules of sport. The only 'accusation' is riding a horse with a positive test for a banned substance. Equestrian sports are a bit trickier because of welfare issues but it's essentially as if Jock and Kevin's sporting equipment was found to be tampered with. So IF the horse has a banned substance in its system it will be eliminated, regardless of how that happened. The rider's punishment in such a case CAN be influenced by mitigating factors but the FEI is not under obligation to investigate forever until a cause can be found. Obviously finding an explanation helps the rider but it won't change the results of the test.
Someone mentioned Ben Johnson in a conversation about drugging. His case was interesting as he was given the drugs by his trusted trainer and there was some debate if he even fully understood what he was given. But he look them and them's the rules.
Btw, the FEI is also not connected to law enforcement. Even if an athlete tests positive for an illegal drug, no charges will be filed, same as with any workplace drug test.
As to Jock's career, I'm sure he will be fine. He is STILL a great jockey, he is STILL a nice guy.
Someone mentioned Ben Johnson in a conversation about drugging. His case was interesting as he was given the drugs by his trusted trainer and there was some debate if he even fully understood what he was given. But he look them and them's the rules.
Btw, the FEI is also not connected to law enforcement. Even if an athlete tests positive for an illegal drug, no charges will be filed, same as with any workplace drug test.
As to Jock's career, I'm sure he will be fine. He is STILL a great jockey, he is STILL a nice guy.
MiaBella
Well-Known Member
True but now there will be the rumour mill that will follow him and there is potentially the loss of his prize money from Burghley and of course the loss of the opportunity to go for the Grand Slam (the winnings from that could be life changing). There is also the loss to the sport (the Grand Slam does help put it in the headlines and gain media interest which also gains sponsorship).
It could also have a direct impact on his career - a suspension (which if proven could be up to 2years) has the potential to end his career, which would be a great shame.