Clinic report: Cudo with Richard Spooner

VRIN

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If these were administered before a competition which ones would be positive on a drug test?
 

BunnyDog

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If these were administered before a competition which ones would be positive on a drug test?

All, some or none.

I know this sounds contrite but there are legal ways to use many of these before showing. And there are ways to use them that are not legal.

Here's what the USEF produced to make it easier. It's only 44 pages.

https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/2Zp2C_YKs4s/2019-equine-drugs-medications

For sure you cannot:

Give an injection within 12 hours * Unless it's an accepted medication determined as needed and administered by a vet.
Use Shockwave
Give a joint injection

You also can get a Therapeutic Use Exemption for things that are needed (Pergolide for Cushings horses was FINALLY added back this year)

It's a lot of confusion, so me personally I don't give meds anywhere close to a show.

Em
 

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For colic nothing we call a vet and expect one within twenty minutes to half an hour

For wounds , sterile dressings , soft pac , gamgee , vetwrap that sort of thing .
I have spray saline .
I have usually sedaline and domocedan in stock
I always have some Danilon for each horse .

When I had a horse who was ill I always had gastroguard I have one who get gastroguard before hunting all I have to do is ring to get a box .

I always have a topical anti inflammatory in stock.
In the Uk antibiotics are strictly controlled I usually have some Flammazine ( topical antibiotic)
But oral and injectables are strictly monitored as are all streroids .
We have all the standard stuff hibiscrub silver spray antifungal sprays etc etc .
 

BunnyDog

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As a microbiologist the lack of control over antibiotics really worries me.

What lack of control???

People are prescribed Antibiotics for a set purpose (whatever it was) and they have enough on hand to treat.

I am fairly certain, at least for myself, I don't give any antibiotics without knowing if it's a simple wound = SMZ or needs more and then I call the vet and ask.

Just because we have this stuff on hand doesn't mean that we're not checking with a vet on how/when to treat a horse that needs antibiotics.

Likewise I have leftover antibiotics in my medicine cabinet, I don't take it without asking a doctor.

Em
 

Wheels

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What a very interesting thread! Thanks for sharing bunny dog and for your honesty.

There are clearly some differences between the US and UK in horse treatment and administration of antibiotics for humans (there should be no leftover antibiotics since in the UK we are advised to take the full course or risk bacteria becoming resistant).

I don't want to comment on the rights and wrongs of giving painkillers to horse so that a clinic can be completed but I do want to make comment that a trainer should know how far (or not) that particular horse can be pushed. I regularly attend clinics of 4 days, some times as a rider, sometimes as a spectator. The trainers know that 4 days is very difficult for the horses and plan the sessions accordingly ensuring plenty of breaks and pushing the horses just far enough to make a change but not so far that they are at risk of being too sore / stiff to complete the clinic.

I didn't like the way your trainer rode BD, I understand why and what he was trying to do but not the methods used and I would not be going back. I know you feel that improvements were made and your round in the 1.30 was lovely but there are much better ways to achieve change with more respect for the horse.
 

ester

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Well obviously the lack of control of antibiotics isn't just a US problem, it's an issue here too but that is mostly Drs having their favourites. I get the lack of antibiotic control from the hoof groups using neosporin/triple antibiotic off the shelf, we can't do that here and I didn't realise you could in other countries until that.

We wouldn't use anything, even SMZ on a simple wound.
 

ester

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As I suspect you might want to know what we do instead- once cleaned with chlorhexidine wash (diluted) we'd use an antiseptic - iodine or purple spray, or I use intrasite/vetalintex gel a fair bit.
 

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BD, this has been such an interesting discussion to read, thanks for being so open and honest in your answers.

As a microbiologist the lack of control over antibiotics really worries me.

Not directed at anyone on this thread - but I totally agree. The lack of understanding around antibiotics is really scary. This is a human rather than horse example. A girl I worked with used to always "save" a few tablets any time she was prescribed a course (which seemed to be very frequently..) "just in case".
 

BunnyDog

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Oh then you all will hate that MANY riders have used SMZ's for a simple UTI since that's the exact same drug as Bactrim for humans and it works well. And given our messed up health care the $55+ it will cost me for a prescription of (I think it's 14 pills) at the pharmacy versus the $60 (Worst case) that will buy me 500 pills from the vet..... well there's one of our problems. That's with insurance. A lot of the horse world is uninsured so it would be more like $85-$100 for the 14 pills.

Health care (for humans) is a HUGE problem here. So that's the only thing I can think of in the horse world of meds that is 'abused' by humans. But I know a couple idiots that took Bute... I would never since that's a whole huge ball park of problems.

As far as what we use SMZ's for... just off the top of my head..

Wounds (Typically of severity that would almost merit stitches, and definitely for those with stitches)
Foot Abscesses - This is newer. Some studies in the last 15 (?) years showed a reduction in the gas pocket. But don't quote me. I just know it's a newer use.
Tooth impactions - that's a fuzzy memory but I think correct.

Here's the page on SMZ from Valley Vet. It has a uses list:

https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=82431b1e-4702-4a65-9b26-0f70f0419f3e

Gentomicin we use too. I know I have some left over (It was leftover because the vials and the dosage didn't match so I had to buy more to get the amount needed. Ex. 20 ML doses and 50 ml bottles. That's not exact but an example of how I have leftover)

Ohio State University (Also a great Vet School) has a page on the Equine uses: https://ohiostate.pressbooks.pub/osuvmcabxuse/chapter/abx_gentamicin-equine/


Ohio state has a page on Baytril as well: https://ohiostate.pressbooks.pub/osuvmcabxuse/chapter/abx_enrofloxacin-equine/


Since you did explain what you do with wounds, I can tell you what I do,

We wash with either chlorhexidine or iodine scrub. A Saline wash works as well but I tend to lean to the iodine.

Depending on the size, I will put at least Triple Antibiotic cream and if it's a non competing horse, or one that will likely need time anyway, I will give it the version that has the pain blockers in it as well. Then I will either leave it to drain if it's weeping plasma. (and add a slight swatch of vaseline on the likely drainage path to avoid skin scorching. OR, I will throw some Aluminum spray on if it is the easy to dry out type of cut.

A few years ago my horse Lunar punctured his stifle joint open. He was immediately attended by the vet. She did a sterile scrub site and clipped it a bit. We gave Procaine Penicillin and something else (Gentocin? It was years ago) for the first month 2x a day. Then he graduated to Baytril injectable and then we figured out he would eat the Baytril coated on his feed. That was great. Baytril is $200/bottle and he used 6 all told.

Amazingly he survived and we got very lucky that how it was punctured caused the synovial fluid to drain out and fall to the ground and the wound actually closed from within through this process with 2x daily hosing. And my vet jokes he did an oil change on the joint. So that leg was healthier after the injury.

If you're not squeamish you can see pics here.

https://s103.photobucket.com/user/Xctrygirl/library?page=1

Emily
 

Northern

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Thanks for posting the videos BD, spent my morning watching. It was great to see the horses improve, especially the dark mare. Loved the chestnut!

I read the comments before watching the videos, and to be honest I expected much worse than what I saw when he hopped on Cudo. It wasn't pretty and IMO he should have coached you through the exercise from the ground a while longer before getting on, but what I saw was a firm but sympathetic rider holding the hand of a slightly stressed horse through the exercise. Maybe it wasn't the best way of working with Cudo as an individual, but he couldn't spend an hour working the horse out either. Clinicians have a small window of time to achieve a positive result, that's just the nature of clinics.

Personally, much like the majority of replies, if I thought the horse needed prescription meds for possible stiffness just for the third day of clinic I would rather have scratched than ridden. If I expected to enter clinics that spanned that timeframe, I would be making doubly sure my horse is fit enough for the fairly hard sustained work required. I understand that the culture is different in the US though, I hope you don't feel too down about the response to that!

Regarding the antibiotics, as another scientist your last post terrifies me and is the perfect example of why we are facing an antibiotic crisis. When my mare cut her leg to the bone, she had IV/IM antibiotics for MAX 2 weeks and the wound was scrubbed with chlorhex and antiseptic. Your example involved the joint, but again the capsule would be injected once with abx and that would have been it. Small to minor cuts can be very easily treated by keeping them clean and bandaged without resorting to the use of antibiotic creams.

I love reading your posts, so I hope you will continue to post your reports. I find it fascinating how the horse world works on the other side of the pond!
 

millitiger

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Thank you so much for posting, I watched both sessions in full and picked up so many tips.
I actually jumped yesterday and had a SUPER ride as had a few tasty quotes from your clinic fresh in my brain.

I also read the comments here before watching and expected to see far worse!
It wasn’t pretty at times but I think he was very clear and black/white with the horse and I understood exactly what he was trying to achieve and also maybe why it didn’t come off quite as well as his ride the first day on the mare.

It was really interesting particularly watching your horse as he has similar weaknesses to mine- that slight disconnect at the wither and the tendency to ‘tranter’ and paddle a bit behind instead of softly sitting when asked to come back.

Thanks again for posting!
 

ScampiBigMan

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Another one to say thanks very much for posting and linking the videos :). Not had a chance to watch all of them yet but since watching, have been applying some of the tips with my two over the past few days and trying to be very clear and consistent asking for flexing through the body in both directions (and focussing on that most of the time to try to reinforce and embed what is required). Just on the flat so far but will be interested to apply next time I jump them too as think could really help further engage the hind end and encourage more sitting with less rein aids.

Only watched Richard's ride on your horse so far, thought he was being very clear with what was asking for. He reminded me of how Blyth Tait rode a couple of horses (including mine) at some clinics many years ago. Not in what he was doing but in how he was being very clear, consistent (and firm whilst kind) and then rewarding when the horse understood and offered what was asked (even partially).
 

indie1282

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I dont think there was a problem with how your trainer rode him. I think the small circles and changes of rein were difficult for Cudo but RS had a soft contact on his mouth and rode nice and quietly and there was always a pat to reassure the horse.

Sometimes training isn't 'pretty' but it can be effective. I would ( and have ) ridden in a similar way and once the horses understands the question and begin to soften and work in a quiet consistent way then you can begin tidying things up. Also its alot to do in a small amount of time. If RS had the horse for a whole session he would have probably started off with a larger circle and worked up to the smaller one but he has to do what he can in the short amount of time he has.

I have seen many supposedly top trainers in this country ride the same exercises but with the horses chin forced down on its chest...
 

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Baytril is enrofloxacin, which is a fluoroquinolone - a protected class of antibiotic here. Vets should only ever use fluoroquinolones where a swab and culture/sensitivity has shown that it is the only available option. This also applies to 3rd and 4th generation cephalosporins.
 

SpringArising

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I've just watched the full video. Gus and his chestnut were a lovely partnership. I think that was the only horse who looked genuinely content and relaxed. The grey and bay with the purple rider look like their teeth need doing...

I think Richard is a lovely rider. I'd never heard of him before this. Everything about him is light, and (from what we're shown) in the video, sympathetic. Cudo looked relaxed in the trot and canter work before going over the fences. The principle of having the horse being able to bend each way is great and makes total sense. Pretty much yoga for horses.

For the people who have an issue with how he was working him, why? I read the comments before watching and was expecting some sort of abusive, nasty riding. I saw nothing that made for uncomfortable viewing or unfair treatment. The only thing I thought was that Cudo probably could have used a break or two between all the canter and jumping.

@BunnyDog - is this amount of work normal for you guys? I appreciate this is a set time clinic but that seemed like A LOT of work for one session. Admittedly I don't push my horse as much as I could but I think he'd be on his knees after all that!
 

BunnyDog

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Baytril is enrofloxacin, which is a fluoroquinolone - a protected class of antibiotic here. Vets should only ever use fluoroquinolones where a swab and culture/sensitivity has shown that it is the only available option. This also applies to 3rd and 4th generation cephalosporins.

The fact that my horse had an exposed hole in his stifle joint, thus exposing all the inside things to the outside world, should not be lost sight of. The horse was under daily vet care for the first few weeks of this issue and as such I would refer you to take up any issues with the veterinary norms at the time, 5 years ago, in the US. It was a very touch and go thing and I am still grateful that we were able to save him. Baytril was a huge part of that success.

@BunnyDog - is this amount of work normal for you guys? I appreciate this is a set time clinic but that seemed like A LOT of work for one session. Admittedly I don't push my horse as much as I could but I think he'd be on his knees after all that!

I think the work load would have been normal without the time Richard spent on a participant horse each time. So the sessions were 2 hours, but that was scheduled as such to allow enough time for 5 participants. As you can see in day 1, and on day 3 (if we ever get it) most of the time 4 horses are having down time at once. The actual amount of work for a horse that was not ridden by Richard would have been comparable to a solid hour or so private focused lesson with a trainer.

For Cudo my longest rides are conditioning work (hills, gallops, trot sets etc) followed by dressage rides, our jump schools are typically under 35-40 mins. He knows how to jump but we're working on how we get there, strength exercises etc. And during a week we ride 5 days, 1 jump, 3 flatwork, 2 conditioning.

I will say that since this clinic and working more on deeper bend and trying to help get him fit to raise his back, his overall fitness and endurance has improved a bit.

Em
 

Gamebird

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The fact that my horse had an exposed hole in his stifle joint, thus exposing all the inside things to the outside world, should not be lost sight of. The horse was under daily vet care for the first few weeks of this issue and as such I would refer you to take up any issues with the veterinary norms at the time, 5 years ago, in the US. It was a very touch and go thing and I am still grateful that we were able to save him. Baytril was a huge part of that success.

Hi BunnyDog, I think you misunderstand me! I was not referring to or critiquing the treatment of your horse in any way. For joint infections you often need to break out the big guns (obviously after sensitivity testing). To be honest I have never seen an open joint wound successfully treated (and by successful I mean including a return to previous levels of athletic performance) without GA/joint flush, so your vet has done a sterling job.

What I am concerned about (and possibly should have made it more clear by quoting - it was impossible on the device I was using at the time) is Baytril's inclusion on your list of drugs commonly kept by barn owners. As a drug that we are trying very hard to preserve for treating multi-resistant infections in humans I can count on one hand the number of times that I have prescribed it in the last 10 or so years, and it is certainly not something that I would be happy to think might be sitting on a client's shelves.
 

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Thank you for posting these. I am halfway through the second one and have found them fascinating. e has a very good eye for horses and riders and I would have been thrilled to ride at a clinic with him. I'm really hoping the third day becomes avaiable soon!
 

BunnyDog

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@Gamebird Ahhhhhh I get you now.
To be fair I would say that against that whole list, the Baytril is likely the one thing that may or may not be in barns around me. I know it's in some but certainly a $200/vial bottle is not lingering without a purpose in my barn. I haven't ever used it except for when Lunar punctured his stifle.


You all don't know how badly I want to see that video.

Not sure what the hold up is. Praying it comes through.

Em
 

myheartinahoofbeat

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Emily,
I have managed to watch most of the Richard Spooner videos of each of the groups. I found them on youtube. Sadly there isn't any of the groups on day 3.
When I watched Richard riding Cudo first time round I thought he was a bit harsh. Now,having watched all the hours of him training each group, I'll admit I got rather hooked on them, they are so informative. It really helps watching his ride on Cudo in context with everything else which is kind of what you were trying to explain to everyone! Richard is so skilled at reading all the horses. I really like his approach.
I hope they put up the 3rd day for all the groups, as I have learned so much and want to see what happens when everyone rides a course. The improvements in some of the partnerships is really impressive and there are so many pieces of advice which I am going to try on my horse too.
 
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BunnyDog

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Emily,
I have managed to watch most of the Richard Spooner videos of each of the groups. I found them on youtube. Sadly there isn't any of the groups on day 3.
When I watched Richard riding Cudo first time round I thought he was a bit harsh. Now,having watched all the hours of him training each group, I'll admit I got rather hooked on them, they are so informative. It really helps watching his ride on Cudo in context with everything else which is kind of what you were trying to explain to everyone! Richard is so skilled at reading all the horses. I really like his approach.
I hope they put up the 3rd day for all the groups, as I have learned so much and want to see what happens when everyone rides a course. The improvements in some of the partnerships is really impressive and there are so many pieces of advice which I am going to try on my horse too.

We're still waiting for day 3 and honestly the lack of a reply of ANY kind is what is a pain. That said I do recognize that they're busy shooting shows on the weekends now and they shot us last Friday so I asked the guy there, who was the same person who was shooting the videos of the clinic, if he knew what was going on. He suggested that his boss might have to find where they had been downloaded to start working on them and such. I hope he's right but still to have zero contact and communication (when I have emailed and fb messaged etc) is a royal pain.

I'm going to attempt to make contact again this weekend. Fingers crossed as I really did pull my act together on Day 3 and I really need to see it!!!!

Em
 

BunnyDog

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Ok well they got 1 hr and 11 mins up of a 2 hour lesson. I have no idea where the rest is. I will try emailing etc again and seeing if they are aware that the whole thing isn't up.

Have a look if you like at what is up:

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Magic April

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I’d have pulled the horse from day 3. And my vet would have advised me to do the same if I’d asked her advice on how to proceed.

Both normal responses here in the UK.
You guys should really not be so judgemental. She got a chance of a lifetime. The horse isn't lame from working the 3rd day. She gave him Ibuprofen pretty much. She didn't drug him with illegal drugs. . it's like you are perfect, no? Maybe just ease up on the criticism. You realize you're not doing anything positive and what has been done is done. Leave her alone!
 
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