Clinic report: Cudo with Richard Spooner

[BunnyDog]

It took a bit of time but amazingly the video company who recorded all of the clinic decided to let all of us have it for free!!! Amazing.

So here are the 3 days in order.

Day 1: Flat work and ground poles:

Day 2: Gymnastics and Richard rides Cudo for a while:

Day 3: Course work: Seems not to be up yet. I'll add when it is.

Bear in mind each of these videos are 2 hours long.

So grab a nice drink and a snack and enjoy.


Em

 

[TheMule]

That was an interesting watch, thank you!
I really liked his training and philosophy on the flat, he has a great eye and I like how he wants the horses. I admit though that I struggled with the way he wanted the horses to go in the jumping and would be interested on your thoughts. I felt a bit sorry for your horse, although I do get what his point was, I don't think it was a particularly nice way for the horse to tackle it.
Would also be good to see the last video.

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

I enjoyed watching these and found it fascinating. He seemed to suss out the horses pretty quickly if he is correct in his analysis. Would love to hear your views on him and what you thought of him riding Cudo. I think he was hoping for a quick fix!!! I too felt a bit sorry for your horse as he seemed overloaded. Did he feel different when you got back on( he certainly jumped better for you!) I hadn't heard of Richard Spooner before but looked him up and now see he is a showjumping mega star, so he really knows his stuff.

 

[BunnyDog]

To be truthful I wasn't sure what he was seeing in Cudo that made him want to get on and "fix" (Or in this case, attempt to fix) the issue. I heard him saying that he would lean on me on landing and not use his core as much. I think it would have been better if at some point we could have introduced him to our horses and explained what they had been doing and where we were in our show season. Like most of the others in this group had been down south and active in the winter months. While Cudo was first legged up in mid February and hadn't jumped until Mid March. Thus our fitness level, while not terrible, was certainly not equivalent to the rest of the group. Not that we shouldn't be held to the same standard of ideals, but realism of where we actually are would have been a touch helpful.

I don't have a problem with how he wanted the horses to jump, their shape and body uses, but since I myself am dyslexic, I tend to think often that you cannot hit 100% success with any type of education when you apply the same methods and expectations on a diverse population. In this case there are 15-20 horses all told in 4 groups of this clinic. While they're grouped into similar performance levels there is a good bit of diversity in type, age, management, experience and age that plays in. August's chestnut in my group is a 6 year old. As in half Cudo's age and August is a professional and a grand prix rider. So clearly there is a small chasm of differences in these two. I view clinics as a way to get more experiences and views from someone whose riding I respect and look to emulate in some way. And much like the stone soup fables, I take what works for me and move forward blending it into the knowledge I have already. I don't ever become a clone of the clinician because that's not the deal.

I liked watching his ride on Cudo. Obviously Cudo clearing the bounce with him was a highlight but I still didn't have any issues. It's important to allow a horse to struggle with a competent rider that you allow to ride them because in those struggles you might find a way of grasping the issues that you face daily. I saw that the early rides with Cudo last year and his reticence to understand me was a basic issue of trust for him. (In my opinion) Cudo isn't the type that I throw all my friends on. In fact I think Richard was the first person in the US to ride him besides me. Lauren told me when I bought him that he's a one person guy. And she's been right. So when Cudo finally melted into Richard's ways you could see (briefly) that his hind end was better. Sure he went better for me but I have been on him for 15 months.

Having said all that I am dying for Day 3 to show up because Cudo was a completely different horse. All of a sudden all the things that Richard did had clicked with some rest and 2 doses of Banamine to alleviate the sore muscles. And true enough our 1.30 show last Friday was (I believe) greatly influenced still by Richard's schooling. The always bending and half halts based off a bend work for us. Very well.

I think I am finding that the clinic and his methods are more apparent in subsequent rides. I am working harder on developing his core and I am trying to get back to the big hills to help with his strengthening. It's just hard to do without company as riding by yourself in 1200 acres of fields is a less than stellar idea.

Em

 

[ycbm]

Emily I'm sorry but I have to write this. Giving a horse a prescription-only anti-inflammatory painkiller so that he can continue to day three of a three day course would be a complete no for me. It wouldnt be legal in the UK in competition, and is not something I would ever contemplate doing in training.

Is this considered normal in the US?

 

[BunnyDog]

Ok so let me explain my point of view @ycbm

1) a clinic is not a competition

2) The horse was not showing any obvious distress, it was a call on my side to keep him comfortable without making him get to be uncomfortable first and then thinking... "Oh I should have given him something."

3) It's not normal for me to give anti-inflammatory in between show days, but again this wasn't a show day and almost 30 mins of hard work without breaks (Which I would not ever do myself) made me aware that I would need to do what I could in the time after our session to help maintain Cudo's comfort and well being. Hence the extended warm water bath with liniments, poultice wraps and extended grazing to allow him to stretch before being put away for the night. Remember also that since we were away from home there were no paddocks to put him in to let him work it out by grazing and moving. Being locked in a stall with hand grazing as the only recourse absolutely played a role in my decisions.

4) Had Cudo been painful or stiff at the time of his 3rd day ride we would have scratched. I elected to try to keep my horse as comfortable as I could with a drug I keep with me in my rig in case of any of the bad things that can happen to horses. He was given 2 doses but they were 18+ hours apart (5:30pm Weds and 12 pm Thurs) and they were each a 3/4 dose of 800 lbs versus the 1000 lb dose. Mind you Cudo tips the scales at over 1300lbs.

5) Worth mentioning that I work at one of the premier equine vet clinics in the country and I do not whip around meds without a lot of thought.

There's been a shift in the US about when we do things such as injections, therapies, physio etc. It used to be that we waited until the horse was actively showing pain and then subsequent studies showed that it was a lot more work to get the horse back to comfortable from established pain than it was to get back to comfortable when given more regular but less aggressive doses of things in the course of steady treatments. Hence in the US we have a number of monthly or Bi-Monthly things we do.

For example: Cudo had his hocks injected once last fall. While he is in work (Not while on turnout) he gets a 1x every other month IM injection of Adequan. This is legal in the US and works to actively help him as we train and compete. Right now he is on the oral supplement of Cosequin ASU Plus....why? Because I got a 60 day supply of it at an event years ago and it didn't seem like a bad idea to use it if I had it. I may not buy more once this is gone but it's there.

Typically I only give my guys hay, grain and a flax seed supplement for their coats and added fat. Why? because I firmly believe there are no feed through miracle cures. Hillwork and long walks etc are my go to treatments more than all the battalion of drugs that the US has to use.

You can be against what I did for Cudo when held against your own standards, but at the end of the day Cudo was not uncomfortable, he did day 3 well and promptly got 3 days off once we got home to help give his body a true rest.

Emily

 

[Red-1]

I really enjoyed watching your 1.30 debut in the dark last week. I thought you were making a real partnership together, it was beautiful to see.

I watched this video, or at least skipped through. I am bewildered at the trainer's ride on your horse. I would say that although I have taught and competed, it is not to the level you now are, nor do I profess to be a good jumper, so feel free to say I am wrong, but I do have a point of view.

I got what the trainer was doing initially, bending, stretching the top line, lifting the back... right up until 1.31 or something like that. Then I was a little uncomfortable with the very tight turns to force a change, but hey, that is how a lot of SJs teach it, so whatever.

The jumping with the trainer upset me. I felt the horse became more and more anxious and confused. I felt he got worse not better. I was not surprised when the trainer said something along the lines that he would not be a quick fix. Nope, I don't suppose he will. Sadly, when I saw the previous video of you riding at the show, I didn't think there was much needed fixing. Progression yes, more XYZ yes, but just improvements, not a fix.

If this were my horse, he would have his NSAIDs, as I suspect he will need them. But I would not be riding him today. I would suspect a few days turned out to allow his mind and body to settle would be better. I would personally find another way to go training wise too, but that may well be why I am not competing at 1.30.


ETA - I just saw you reply above and realised the horse already did the 3rd day at the clinic. I also have no problem with NDAIDs to relieve discomfort, or even to head it off before it happens if I feel I accidentally did too much, but not as a means to do too much again. In this case I define "too much" as being where the horse does enough work to feel uncomfortable and need NSAIDs.

 

[BunnyDog]

@Red-1 Allow me to clarify the timeline here:

This clinic was May 14, 15 and 16. You saw the 14th and 15th.

The 1.30 show was May 24th. The Hunt teams show was 5/25. He's had a full week off since then.

He was off from the 17th - the 19th. We trained up to the 1.30 show on the 24th with only a pair of low jump schools as we also were prepping for the hunt teams class on the 25th.

This trainer lives in California. I won't likely have many more chances to ride with him. And I manage Cudo with training myself and if I may be so bold I think when we look at where we are and where we've gotten better that things are going well. I still take occasional lessons with Jimmy Wofford but by and large I am doing this all myself. And I don't whip him into tight circles for lead changes, so no worries on that repeating.

Emily

I really enjoyed watching your 1.30 debut in the dark last week. I thought you were making a real partnership together, it was beautiful to see.

I watched this video, or at least skipped through. I am bewildered at the trainer's ride on your horse. I would say that although I have taught and competed, it is not to the level you now are, nor do I profess to be a good jumper, so feel free to say I am wrong, but I do have a point of view.

I got what the trainer was doing initially, bending, stretching the top line, lifting the back... right up until 1.31 or something like that. Then I was a little uncomfortable with the very tight turns to force a change, but hey, that is how a lot of SJs teach it, so whatever.

The jumping with the trainer upset me. I felt the horse became more and more anxious and confused. I felt he got worse not better. I was not surprised when the trainer said something along the lines that he would not be a quick fix. Nope, I don't suppose he will. Sadly, when I saw the previous video of you riding at the show, I didn't think there was much needed fixing. Progression yes, more XYZ yes, but just improvements, not a fix.

If this were my horse, he would have his NSAIDs, as I suspect he will need them. But I would not be riding him today. I would suspect a few days turned out to allow his mind and body to settle would be better. I would personally find another way to go training wise too, but that may well be why I am not competing at 1.30.

 

[Red-1]

I do like the way you ride him, but still think he looked anxious and confused and latterly tired with the trainer on this day. I would imagine he benefited from the days off and low schools with you, as he was fabulous on the 1.30 show video.

I don't think I would go for lessons with this trainer, but then I suppose he would not like to train me either.

 

[ihatework]

Im just glad it wasn’t my horse he was riding, it would have been very awkward asking him to get off.

 

[BunnyDog]

ETA - I just saw you reply above and realised the horse already did the 3rd day at the clinic. I also have no problem with NDAIDs to relieve discomfort, or even to head it off before it happens if I feel I accidentally did too much, but not as a means to do too much again. In this case I define "too much" as being where the horse does enough work to feel uncomfortable and need NSAIDs.

It's really a shame that day 3's video is awol currently. I have sent messages to the video company asking if I can buy it or if it will be forthcoming. In the 3rd day he actually did very little. He was totally amazing and conquered all the course work exercises with aplomb and confidence on the first try.

Im just glad it wasn’t my horse he was riding, it would have been very awkward asking him to get off.

I guess it helps that I went to Florida myself (without my horses) and watched a clinic with Richard in December. I saw other horses that he sat on and I saw the progress.
I have posted a lot in the past on other forums that we as riders seem to forget that at times learning can be ugly, be it the horse or the rider there can be ugly looking moments that do still allow learning to happen.

I will attest, and the 1.30 video shows it, that Cudo (and I) did benefit from our work with Richard. He's none the worse and I am working on the bending and the increase use of his core. But his lateral work is improving as well and I do like the flatwork exercises.

It's about taking forward the best parts that work for you and discarding the rest.

Em

 

[ycbm]

Using your own words, it was definitely ugly, Emily. I think I know what he was trying to do - get Cudo to bounce the canter on the bit in the way he does in the sales video which you showed us before he was shipped over to you. But imo, (and I don't and never have jumped at that level, so what do I know about it 🤐), he was an 'expert' thinking he'd do a quick 'I'll show them all how this is done' and was surprised to find Cudo is a more complicated ride than he thought. I thought he made himself look a bit of a fool, and not a funny one.

I don't know whether your 1.30m success was because of that training or in spite of it, but he's a really lovely horse and you have worked out your own partnership with him, and I incline to the latter.

.

 

[Goldenstar]

I will throw in my thoughts .
I hesitate to use the word ugly but it was not pretty ,it was not unkind what it was was uncompromising .It was clear in the first session that this is a system trainer who put a high value on riding a supple and obedient horse .
His emphasis on lumbar suppleness and the ability to control the position of the hind legs is spot on .
I could write a really long piece I watched both videos in full .
It was great when I could not sleep last night and I thank you Bunny dog for putting them up and yourself and your horse out there .
I think by rewatching your bits you will have a great tool to come back to for a long time.
It was not pretty when he was on Cudo the horse is mature and most warmblood once they have learnt their way don’t love change .
All the trainer was saying to the horse was you must use your back and you could see how hard that was for the horse .
That’s not a reason not to do it
Personally I thought it was great riding, RS was consistent ,very kind and unrelenting in reinforcing the message you need to use your back and I am going to let you have your neck to wish as your please if you are polite and listen to my legs .
It takes a special amount of confidence to ride and jump like that in a clinic situation I have huge respect for that.
The jumps he was jumping where small and yes the horse was anxious yes he jumped two bits of the bounce at once as a someone who evented that just made me laugh .
Yes the horse probaly went to bed tired it does not harm them .
A horse is not harmed by a rider who says you need to bend when I say you need move you hind legs where I say and you need to use your back properly but by the way if you do those things and stop / slow down when I use my legs and body you can do want you chose with your head .
If BD kept those thoughts in the run up to that 1.30 class I think that probably did contribute to that lovely round .

 

[ester]

They both say unavailble for me?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

They both say unavailble for me?

They work for me if I open them in a new tab.

 

[Goldenstar]

They both say unavailble for me?

I opened them in YouTube

 

[milliepops]

I am a showjumping numpty as it is the discipline I least enjoy but I can definitely see where GS is coming from and I thought that even though he was tired by the end, there were times when you could see the quality coming into the canter more. I also thought the way he rode the mare on the first day was quite interesting to watch, I liked the way he sat there so quietly with the reins in one hand with her prancing around working it out while he kept asking the question- that made it so clear to her what the question was.
Thank you for sharing, he looked fabulous at the show.

 

[Goldenstar]

He rode the mare on the flat work day very well .
It takes real confidence and confidence in your position not to let you down to ride like that .
It did the mare a great deal of good .

 

[ihatework]

Personally I think it takes an ‘impressive’ level of ego to do what he did in a clinic. There are many roads to Rome and I would have chosen a different path. We shall have to agree to disagree on this one. (Comment specifically relates to Cudo, I don’t have the motivation to watch the remainder)

 

[Goldenstar]

I disagree do you not think that that rider could not have just put Cudo where he wanted him in front and set him up for each fence so it looked pretty of course he could ...that’s ego .

 

[BunnyDog]

That mare benefited hugely. By day 3 she was a different horse. Her people were amazed. I loved watching how he rode her and I agree with @Goldenstar about the confidence, not ego, that allows someone to take on a ride like that.

I looked at August while RS was going quietly around on the mare and said to him "That's why we're here. Amazing"

Emily

He rode the mare on the flat work day very well .
It takes real confidence and confidence in your position not to let you down to ride like that .
It did the mare a great deal of good .

 

[ihatework]

Agree to disagree.

 

[BunnyDog]

Agree to disagree.

I already heard you say that and I respect that but you've watched 2 videos. I've watched multiple days of in person lessons across all levels. And years ago we were based at the same equestrian center so I watched months worth of lessons then. My knowledge is based off more actual interactions.

So the 4 hours of videos are not my sole basis of opinion. I get that they're yours but I'm not in the same place.

Emily

 

[Goldenstar]

I am very nosy but an really curious to know what do you pay for a three day clinic like that ?

 

[BunnyDog]

I am very nosy but an really curious to know what do you pay for a three day clinic like that ?

$675

 

[Tiddlypom]

All of a sudden all the things that Richard did had clicked with some rest and 2 doses of Banamine to alleviate the sore muscles.

I have followed your posts about Cudo with interest from the start, but this shocked me. You gave a tired and sore horse some Banamine so he could complete the third day of a clinic?

How disappointing to hear this. It may the norm in the States but it isn’t in the UK. If a horse is tired, we rest it, we don’t push it on with painkillers.

 

[Goldenstar]

Does that include stabling ?

 

[BunnyDog]

Does that include stabling ?

Yes.

I have followed your posts about Cudo with interest from the start, but this shocked me. You gave a tired and sore horse some Banamine so he could complete the third day of a clinic?

How disappointing to hear this. It may the norm in the States but it isn’t in the UK. If a horse is tired, we rest it, we don’t push it on with painkillers.

But so tell me and this is posed without any snark, for the sake of better understanding the culture that you all work with. How would you handle a horse of yours in the same position?

I am fine with cultural differences but if I am American and helping a horse not be painful is an accepted practice here, how fair is it to hold me to a standard that isn't what is my norm? He's gotten these 2 doses of a prescription drug in the past 90 days of training/competing. (That I was prescribed by a vet to have on hand with me for travel and in my barn. I didn't acquire it without a vet) I am not someone who does frequent injections, frequent drug administrations and when in doubt I give days off. But these two 3/4 doses are riling up UK followers. I'm not a serial druggie, not compared to what some folks do here. But I certainly feel like one now. Which is so ironic.

I mean I have pet dogs, I love them. But other countries eat dogs. I couldn't imagine that, but I recognize that different places have different norms. I don't assail the people from those cultures as being cruel or horrid because their way isn't the same as mine. (I hope you see what I am trying to say here)

I detailed at length all that I did and why. I didn't hide it and honestly I didn't expect the backlash, I take Ibuprofen or Naproxen when I am pretty sure I am going to be painful and we give the dogs baby aspirin when they run too hard. All of this is done with the doctor's advice, which I am following, and ironically my equine vet is English. I personally don't think it's right to allow a horse to become more painful than necessary. (not just these circumstances, but in any where you as a thinking human can see the possibility of pain) Cudo got and continues to get a lot of rest and relaxation to counter his workloads. This is not typical among the folks I know who typically train 6 days a week regardless. I am not saying I am perfect but I absolutely do take care of my animals and their welfare and comfort is paramount. I have scratched classes, shows, clinics etc and saved my horses for another day before. I didn't this time because I thought 24 hours was enough time to recover.

I know I am coming off as defensive but it's bothering me that there isn't some understanding that allowing him to hurt just to say you didn't give him drugs is what is implied as having been a better choice. He did the equine equivalent of sit ups for 30 mins straight after having not been asked to do them in the same manner before. I would be hitting my medicine cabinet HARD if I was in his position with a personal trainer. I just don't get this thinking. He's not being consumed for food, it's not a risk to anyone in the food chain if he has a pain killer in his system. And I think it's just silly that me prioritizing him being comfortable is viewed as wrong. He would have been scratched if he was even the slightest bit stiff on day 3. I value this horse and I'm just confused why me trying to help him is viewed as a mistake of epic, cast down in society proportions.

Emily

 

[Meowy Catkin]

People aren't against giving painkiller when required, that of course happens here too. However if the horse needed painkillers, most people that I know would have withdrawn him from the third day of the clinic.

I think that is the difference in essence.

 

[Goldenstar]

What I think is three day clinics are problematic.
One upon a time I used to arrange lots of clinics and three day clinic where popular but we phased them out because by day three the horses often went worse because amateurs horses are rarely asked to try hard three days on the trot .
Given the distances people travel to get to things in the US I understand why three days would be popular .
In my experiance there is different attitude to self managing horses in the US and given the distances they travel it’s the norm ( in my pretty limited experiance ) for people to have more medication and different types of medication at their disposal .
BD has been very open , have I ever medicated a horse in that situation no I haven’t do I think it’s a huge issue no I don’t .
Do I think horses ought to be hard fit enough to cope without in that situation , yes that is the ideal .