Comparison video before and during bute trial

applecart14

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 March 2010
Messages
6,269
Location
Solihull, West Mids
Visit site
This is a video of my 17yr old gelding BEFORE his bute trial for lameness. The lameness is supposedly due to calcification within his suspensory ligament on his near fore following re-injury to his leg in June last year. He looks lame on the right rein as he is overcompensating from the left leg. It looks to me like sacro iliac or some hind limb problem as he is not tracking up or using himself as well as he does on the bute trial.

BEFORE THE BUTE TRIAL

Left rein before the bute trial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvlOBAV4LxU


This is on the right rein BEFORE the bute trial http://youtu.be/EMuHXWSs7ko


DURING THE BUTE TRIAL

This is Bailey on the left rein ON the bute trial http://youtu.be/RVCmqV_-XZ4


And on the right rein ON the bute trial http://youtu.be/LNZ1mGBayE8


AND left canter ON bute trial http://youtu.be/ouIdD9sI_qo

Any ideas - do you think its leg or back?
I know he is very overweight - this is due in part to him being out of full work and a flush of good grass and nice quality hay. He has just moved yards also after ten yrs at the old one.
 
Last edited:

splashgirl45

Lurcher lover
Joined
6 March 2010
Messages
15,043
Location
suffolk
Visit site
as no one else has replied. I don't think he is really going forward enough to be sure which leg it is. how about filming him trotting up on a hard surface in a straight line?
 

athenrye

Member
Joined
3 December 2008
Messages
18
Visit site
Finally managed to see vids and he doesn't look right in front to me before or after, I suspect on after though he would look much better on straight or bigger circle but def doesn't right.

Does this not mean it is as you think? Mechanical rather than pain? X
 

applecart14

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 March 2010
Messages
6,269
Location
Solihull, West Mids
Visit site
Finally managed to see vids and he doesn't look right in front to me before or after, I suspect on after though he would look much better on straight or bigger circle but def doesn't right.

Does this not mean it is as you think? Mechanical rather than pain? X

Hi Atherye, not sure what's going on, very difficult. Got GK (Physio) to come out soon to see him. Going to keep him in work, jumping, flatwork, fun rides and see what happens after bute trial.
 

ester

Not slacking multitasking
Joined
31 December 2008
Messages
60,198
Location
Cambridge
Visit site
He looks pretty uncomfortable to be keeping in jumping/flatwork and funrides tbh even on the bute and def not off it.

The right rein before video is showing as private btw.
 

ITPersonnage

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 March 2009
Messages
493
Visit site
Sorry this is going to sound harsh but if your vet told you to put your hand in the fire would you do that as well ? I've been in your situation and vet suggested I carried on riding against my instincts - I did and guess what ? Horse ended up worse than before. PLEASE use your head - that's why we have brains. Please don't take this personally, I know you want the best for your horse.
 

ester

Not slacking multitasking
Joined
31 December 2008
Messages
60,198
Location
Cambridge
Visit site
What is the vet's reasoning for him to stay in such a high level of work given that iirc he has had a series of soundness issues?
 

Auslander

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 November 2010
Messages
12,622
Location
Berkshire
Visit site
He's been struggling for a long time Applecart, and I really don't think your vet is doing you any favours. All along I have thought it strange that they recommended you brought the horse back into work before he had sufficient rest after pretty significant injury, encouraged you to get him out jumping far too soon after said injury, and now they want the horse in quite hard work for an older horse, even though he's not sound.

Have you considered trying another vet?
 

Circe

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 January 2011
Messages
979
Location
Australia
Visit site
Sorry, but I think the only thing that's going to happen if you work your horse at the moment, is that he'll get even more broken.
That might help your vet to pinpoint the problem, but its not doing you or your horse any favours.
Could you get a second opinion from another vet?
Kx
 

applecart14

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 March 2010
Messages
6,269
Location
Solihull, West Mids
Visit site
He's been struggling for a long time Applecart, and I really don't think your vet is doing you any favours. All along I have thought it strange that they recommended you brought the horse back into work before he had sufficient rest after pretty significant injury, encouraged you to get him out jumping far too soon after said injury, and now they want the horse in quite hard work for an older horse, even though he's not sound.

Have you considered trying another vet?
I am not sure where you get your information from but here is a comprehensive list of my horses injury detailing the treatment he has had.

My horse was diagnosed with a slight sprain of the lateral branch of the suspensory ligament on his n/f leg in June 2011. He received long wave ultrasound therapy and pulsed magno therapy from my physio. After a few months and three ultrasounds to check on healing it was evident healing was not taking place or albeit very slowly. Because of the slow healing Bailey received a course of shockwave (three sessions) and when that made no difference he received PRP into the ligament around the end of 2011. In March 2012 his opposite O/H bone spavin was causing him to overload onto his diagonal (the injury) so he received an injection of ethanol into both hock joints in an attempt to stop him overloading this injury. He had also been ‘hopping’ a lot on the right rein in trot which the vet said was over bearing and over compensation from the near fore injury. The horse was also ridden in more of an uphill way to prevent him going on his forehand which he had previously done due to the spavin in his hocks.

The PRP and hock fusion worked and the horse went back into full work, and had been jumping consistently at 1m - 1.05m height unaffiliated competitions without a problem and had a good many clears, gaining 16 ½ double clears in 9 consecutive outings and having been placed six times during this period. He continued to hop on the right rein but this was barely noticeable and was dependant upon which surface he was ridden in and what bit he was ridden in as he tends to be a classic ‘bridle lame’ horse. He was willing and happy in his work and moving very well due to the fusion in the hock.

In June 2012 the horse suffered a traumatic injury when he got this leg stuck in a wheelbarrow and dragged it around the yard causing significant swelling to the leg and a cut to the inside of the leg. After a few days of box rest and pulsed magnotherapy, anti-inflammatory and considerable cold treatment in the form of ice cups/ice boots, cold tubbing and cold hosing and support stable bandages he was turned out and ridden walk in the form of walking for fortnight and a further four weeks of increased workload until back into work again fully.

He came back into full work/competition and was fully sound by August 2013 apart from the hopping which has always remained but was approx. 1/1 tenth lame. But then the hopping got worse, and he was evaluated with x-ray and it appears that there is a build up of calcification floating in the joint. He received a month of walk work (turnout daily) along with LW ultrasound on the leg from my physio and he went back to the vets on Sept 15th 2013 for further evaluation.

He was given ten days of Danillon x 2 per day and he still showed marked hopping (so I took him off the supplement he was having of slippery elm as it can prohibit NSAIDS which are absorbed through the gut wall) and then he had ten days of Danillon x 1 per day with instructions to bring back into full work by the end of the month and jumping small fences by then. He actually had six weeks before he went back to the vets on the 31st October for re-evaluation. The night before (30th October) he went lame after his second jumping session since x-rays but this was found to be a bruised sole with a haematoma (he had been shod earlier that week).

Five weeks later he had another bruised sole with haematoma (shod earlier that week) but has been fine since (approx. six shoeing’s). He is shod every five weeks by a very good farrier and a very good foot balance was evidenced with the coffin joint x-rays.

About four weeks ago he returned to the vets for evaluation and was found to be three tenths lame on the near fore. After a nerve block of the foot he was one tenth lame. The one tenth was considered to be the lateral branch suspensory and the two tenths was considered to be the coffin joint arthritis. So the next day the horse was given a steroid into the coffin joint near fore.

Roll on four weeks to now and the horse is still showing unlevelness on the right rein which is evidenced by viewing him in trot whilst ridden. On the lunge he is not so bad (probably one tenth lame) and probably ½ to 1 tenth lame on the left rein.

My current vet whom I rate highly has suggested a bute trial and based on Baileys weight of approx. 700KG has suggested three bute a day for a week followed by 1 ½ a day for one week followed by one a day for the third week.
 

ester

Not slacking multitasking
Joined
31 December 2008
Messages
60,198
Location
Cambridge
Visit site
I think we are seeing a lot more than 1/2 - 1 tenth lame in those videos. - and tbh it makes me wonder if he is just very honest to feel much better/keep jumping competitively if that is how he looks on the lunge.

Fwiw we have a proximal branch suspensory injury at home atm, horse showed very little lameness to start, had PRP and has healed as expected throughout - horse only has a hacking prognosis though, no more circles.

My 21 yo isn't level behind but I don't think he looks as lame as the vids of your chap, we are going to do a bit of investigation but if he has to become a light hack that is fine with me if we can't resolve it for him.
 

Goldenstar

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 March 2011
Messages
46,020
Visit site
If he where mine he would be in the vets for some heavy duty nerve blocking to try and find out exactly where we where .
 

Auslander

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 November 2010
Messages
12,622
Location
Berkshire
Visit site
I am not sure where you get your information from.

From previous posts on here - particularly related to the suspensory injury, where the horse was back in work and out jumping within a couple of months of the injury. People voiced their concerns back then, and were met with resistance, so I guess the same will happen here. You also posted about competing a horse on byte, because it wasn't sound - same scenario there.

Your posts on here describe a horse who has been lame far more than he has been sound. He is lame in every video you have posted, and rather than accept that he is struggling with a variety of issues, and ease off his workload, you continue to work him hard, and then post again about him being lame.

I sound like I'm attacking you, which isn't my intention. i just feel that your horse is not able to cope with the physical demands of the job you expect him to do. You cannot be faulted for your commitment to his veterinary care - he's had everything done that could possibly be done. I do feel though, that every veterinary procedure you opt for is patching him up for a bit, rather than resolving the problem. I do sympathise - really I do. I have an older horse with shedloads wrong with him, and I have spent a fortune getting him to a stage where he can be ridden. He'll never compete again, and his prognosis for a return to complete soundness is guarded, so some might say that I'm just throwing good money after bad, but I love him, and i want him to be as comfortable as possible. He's a PSG dressage horse, and i would love nothing more than to be able to work him at that level. It's been painful spending months walking in straight lines on the sodding roads, just to get him sound enough to go a bit faster on the same sodding road! I dream of being able to go in the school and run through all his party tricks on him. But I don't, because he is too fragile, and too precious to risk breaking him again.

Have you thought about a proper long term rehab programme with him? Rest, turn away, bring back into work very very slowly and carefully. It's torturous,particularly on an older horse, who just keeps getting older while all you can do is pat his nose over the gate or walk along the same stretch of road for 8 months, but it may be the key to getting your boy more robust physiologically. He seems very fragile, judging by what Ive read on here - and trust me, I could write a book on dealing with horses who break all the time.
 

Diddleydoo

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 September 2010
Messages
520
Visit site
Brilliant post Auslander.

No advice from me, you have my sympathy Applecart14. I have one who goes from one issue to the next and spends more time being brought back in to work than actually in work. But like Auslander I believe the right thing to do is fix what can be fixed and work with the horse at an appropriate level for what can't be fixed.

Unfortunately for me that looks like I'll have to lower my aspirations.
 

PolarSkye

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 July 2010
Messages
9,492
Visit site
No advice from me, you have my sympathy Applecart14. I have one who goes from one issue to the next and spends more time being brought back in to work than actually in work. But like Auslander I believe the right thing to do is fix what can be fixed and work with the horse at an appropriate level for what can't be fixed.

Unfortunately for me that looks like I'll have to lower my aspirations.

Another one in violent agreement. I've just received a suspensory injury diagnosis for my beautiful boy and I'm expecting a very long road to recovery, if recovery is even possible. Yes, he can jump 1.30M with his eyes shut and was just about to start competing at Novice . . . and, yes, it will be a very frustrating, boring summer getting him sound . . . but he will ONLY do what his poor old legs and feet will let him . . . and if that means he's only ever a happy hacker, then so be it.

Please take a step back and consider your horse's workload against his (many) physical issues.

P
 

ester

Not slacking multitasking
Joined
31 December 2008
Messages
60,198
Location
Cambridge
Visit site
oh rubbish PS I'd missed that.

Mum's mare has been on box rest, then walking, now limited small paddock turnout since the new year. Plan then is to turnout for rest of summer while still walking in hand 30 odd mins a day and then get back on October time, longer than I thought would be tbh and as I said not the greatest prognosis for circle work but the horse is probably quite happy about that - although Mum thinks they may have to move house to somewhere with nicer hacking!
 

PolarSkye

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 July 2010
Messages
9,492
Visit site
oh rubbish PS I'd missed that.

Mum's mare has been on box rest, then walking, now limited small paddock turnout since the new year. Plan then is to turnout for rest of summer while still walking in hand 30 odd mins a day and then get back on October time, longer than I thought would be tbh and as I said not the greatest prognosis for circle work but the horse is probably quite happy about that - although Mum thinks they may have to move house to somewhere with nicer hacking!

Yeah, it's a bit *****, but better than his navicular catching up with him (which is what Z and I were both convinced was the problem). It's a forelimb rather than a hind so the prognosis is rather better and our vet is guardedly optimistic (although he is being x-rayed next week so it could be far worse than we think). Bummer about your Mum's horse but it sounds like you are taking it sensibly slowly.

Getting back to the OP's horse . . . if he were mine, I'd be listening very carefully to my vet and taking his advice - to the letter. If he told me to lock him up in a pink padded cell listening to unicorn calls on a bed of peacock feathers, I'd do it. Horses' limbs are complex structures - horses themselves are a walking construction/design nightmare - and it doesn't take much to seriously exacerbate a ligament/tendon issue. All that bulk of the body supported by relatively spindly legs, not to mention the forces exerted on (those relatively fragile) legs when doing (relatively) unnatural things like showjumping, racing, cross country and dressage.

Please, please OP take your boy's health seriously and reconsider his future as a ridden horse.

P
 

applecart14

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 March 2010
Messages
6,269
Location
Solihull, West Mids
Visit site
Getting back to the OP's horse . . . if he were mine, I'd be listening very carefully to my vet and taking his advice - to the letter.
Please, please OP take your boy's health seriously and reconsider his future as a ridden horse.

P

Err I am taking my vets advice. He told me to put him on a three week bute trial so here we are. I rang him today and he is coming out on Friday. He wants me to keep him on the bute to see what he is like on that so he can see him on bute.

As for taking my boys health seriously, how you can think I have ever thought about doing anything else is beyond me - have you not read my long, long post about his complete history???? Is that not serious enough. He has had everything money can buy thrown at him, coffin joint injections, physio, rehab, hock fusion, PRP. How can you say I am not taking this seriously is beyond me! Is all I think about from the moment I wake up to the moment I get a couple of hours sleep (before waking again in bits). So I think I am taking it VERY seriously. I don't get why some people have to assume that I am some monster only intent on getting my horse 'out and about' and don't give a stuff about him. I am in tears now typing this. You all have absolutely no idea. My new yard owner has told me to chuck him out in the field, give him six months and have him PTS.

Everyone is being so bl**dy negative. Last September my friend and I spent money getting our horses gateway hard cored so that he wouldn't stand in deep mud, then my horse started getting chased by yard dogs so I have moved yards to help him, because galloping through thick gloopy mud whilst chased by a pack of out of control dogs isn't going to help his condition. When the vet has said box rest, he has had it. When he has said hacking for weeks and weeks, he has had that. When I've been told to do physio exercises I've done these, when I've been told to try and stretch him, I've done that. Everything I can. And spent approx £1100 to date of my own money in trying to get his leg better as his insurance is out. So please don't think I haven't, I love my horse so very much, he is everything to me. If all he can do is be hacked, then so be it. But at least don't blame me and my vet for wanting, or trying for more.

I will keep those interested updated after the vets visit on Friday.
 
Last edited:

Meowy Catkin

Meow!
Joined
19 July 2010
Messages
22,635
Visit site
A14, maybe he does need time? I have known horses that seemed completely knackered come right with time. However it was more like a year + of turnout and then when they were sound they were brought back into work very, very slowly eg two months of walking in straight lines before trotting at all. It might be worth discussing this as a possible option with your Vet, if treatments are getting you no further.
 

applecart14

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 March 2010
Messages
6,269
Location
Solihull, West Mids
Visit site
To be quite honest I think I am going to ask my vet to refer for a bone scan or an MRI and use my savings paying for it. It will be very expensive as I am funding it myself but to get a diagnosis however bad the prognosis is better than stumbling along getting the vet out everytime he goes lame or lamer.

Maybe if we can find it is another limb or area on his body then I will be able to use my insurance. Poor Bailey, he is such a lovely boy and doesn't deserve this. However, not sound on three bute a day suggests to me that it could be mechanical lameness. I wonder if the vet will be able to give him an injection of bute when he visits which will eliminate all pain (if such a thing is possible).
 

PolarSkye

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 July 2010
Messages
9,492
Visit site
To be quite honest I think I am going to ask my vet to refer for a bone scan or an MRI and use my savings paying for it. It will be very expensive as I am funding it myself but to get a diagnosis however bad the prognosis is better than stumbling along getting the vet out everytime he goes lame or lamer.

Has this not been done before? If not, I strongly recommend you change your vet.

Best of luck.

P
 

Goldenstar

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 March 2011
Messages
46,020
Visit site
Think carefully about spending your savings on another whole load of expensive diagnostics .
If he where mine I would be leading him from another horse to keep him moving long reining / lunging over raised one side poles in walk ,
And seeing if using a lot of really good physio keeps him comfy and would thinking that downgrading the job might be on the cards .
And seeing if he gets more comfy that way .
When a much loved horse suffers the dreaded multi causal lameness it's very very hard .
It's not great that the danilon helped only a little this sadly is exactly what happened with one of my oldies his pain was not cleared up on danilon either .
 

Diddleydoo

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 September 2010
Messages
520
Visit site
To be quite honest I think I am going to ask my vet to refer for a bone scan or an MRI and use my savings paying for it. It will be very expensive as I am funding it myself but to get a diagnosis however bad the prognosis is better than stumbling along getting the vet out everytime he goes lame or lamer.

I think that is a very good idea and I totally understand that you want to know exactly what the problem is. I also understand your frustration at stumbling from one lameness to the next.

For the record, it is clear you love Bailey and obvious that you are trying very hard to fix him.
 
Top